Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 July 23
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July 23
[edit]Monolingual scripts or alphabets
[edit]There are a handful of scripts that are used for the vast majority of languages, such as Roman, Cyrilic, Arabic, Chinese, etc. I was reading a few articles about Georgia when it struck me that the Georgian script is unique to the Georgian language. Are there many other monolingual scripts? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hebrew, Hangul and the Cherokee syllabary spring to mind. I'm sure there are others. Alansplodge (talk) 11:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Hello, Dodger67. The Mkhedruli script is actually used for other languages of Georgia, such as Laz and Mingrelian, so it is not truly "monolingual". The same is true for the Armenian alphabet, and Japanese kana. Most of the scripts of India are known for writing their primary language, but generally they are also used Sanskrit and minor local languages. I thought Hangul might be an answer, but our article lists several other languages which are written in it. The Cherokee and Vai syllabaries might be examples, though. (Alansplodge, we agree on Cherokee, but Hangul fails as I say. So does Hebrew: It's still in use for Yiddish, and in also for Aramaic in Jewish liturgical use.) --ColinFine (talk) 11:19, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Apparently the Hebrew script is/was used for Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, Mozarabic, Levantine Arabic and Hangul is sometimes used for the Cia-Cia language. Georgian script(s) are used by other Kartvelian languages. --195.62.160.60 (talk) 11:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Actually, outside of the reach of the Roman, Cyrilic, Arabic and Chinese scripts, most scripts are at least close to monolingual, usually used for one big language community and sometimes also for minority languages in close contact with the dominant language. In Mainland Southeast Asia, local scripts like Khmer, Burmese and Thai are also used to write Pali/Sanskrit. The use of Hangul for Cia-Cia was a publicity stunt and only affected speakers in a small part of the speech area, so that's a rather unique case. Having an own script is often felt as a token of linguistic identity (as in India), which even has led to the creation of new scripts in modern times like Ol Chiki, Adlam, or N'Ko (used for a group of closely related languages). Many Berbers will tell you that Tifinagh is monolingual, but that's based on the idea that the Berber languages are a single language. –Austronesier (talk) 11:51, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Another problem not considered is the issue of what makes a "single language". What one person defines as two dialects of the same language another person may define as two distinct languages. There are no bright lines in these definitions, and at the fuzzy borders, there's going to be a lot of debate about whether two related communications systems represent truly distinct languages or dialects of the same language. It is always worth bringing up the famous idiom a language is a dialect with an army and navy in these discussions. --Jayron32 12:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yet another issue is that a particular script is usually a larger set of symbols, from which a particular language uses only a subset. For example, Russian uses certain Cyrillic characters that Ukrainian, Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian etc do not, and likewise for the others. In Latin script, English does not use any diacritics (except in words borrowed from other languages, and even then maybe not; it is essentially a matter of style rather than "correctness"), while virtually all other Latin-script languages use a range of diacritics. The issue then becomes: is a a different letter from á, à, â, ä, ã, ā, ǎ, å, or ą? It depends on the language: some list all variants separately, some don't. In Welsh, ll (double el) is considered a different letter from plain l. It also considers ch, dd, ff, ng, ph, rh and th to be letters, while it makes do without k, q, v, x and z entirely. Does it therefore use a different alphabet from English? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- This raises a whole lot of linguistic questions. In Finnish and Swedish, ä and ö are letters on their own right. In German, they are variations of a and o. Does that make the alphabets different? In Finnish, the letters d and g are uncommon, and the letters b, f, q, w, x and z occur only in loanwords, but still they are considered part of the alphabet. Does that make the Finnish alphabet any different? JIP | Talk 01:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- I guess for the purposes of this question we have to think about it as: Latin-script languages are those that use exclusively characters from the set of available Latin letters and their variants. Similarly for the other scripts. As far as I'm aware, no language crosses the borders, e.g. no language used a mix of Latin and Cyrillic letters (except to the extent that Latin and Cyrillic share some letters, although they don't always represent the same sounds; Cyrillic В = Latin V, etc). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- @JackofOz: Transitional Romanian alphabet mixed Latin and Cyrillic. I think some minor Slavic and Central Asian languages included some letters of the other alphabet too. --Error (talk) 09:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- I forgot to mention that c is only used in loanwords in Finnish. JIP | Talk 17:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- I guess for the purposes of this question we have to think about it as: Latin-script languages are those that use exclusively characters from the set of available Latin letters and their variants. Similarly for the other scripts. As far as I'm aware, no language crosses the borders, e.g. no language used a mix of Latin and Cyrillic letters (except to the extent that Latin and Cyrillic share some letters, although they don't always represent the same sounds; Cyrillic В = Latin V, etc). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- This raises a whole lot of linguistic questions. In Finnish and Swedish, ä and ö are letters on their own right. In German, they are variations of a and o. Does that make the alphabets different? In Finnish, the letters d and g are uncommon, and the letters b, f, q, w, x and z occur only in loanwords, but still they are considered part of the alphabet. Does that make the Finnish alphabet any different? JIP | Talk 01:19, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yet another issue is that a particular script is usually a larger set of symbols, from which a particular language uses only a subset. For example, Russian uses certain Cyrillic characters that Ukrainian, Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian etc do not, and likewise for the others. In Latin script, English does not use any diacritics (except in words borrowed from other languages, and even then maybe not; it is essentially a matter of style rather than "correctness"), while virtually all other Latin-script languages use a range of diacritics. The issue then becomes: is a a different letter from á, à, â, ä, ã, ā, ǎ, å, or ą? It depends on the language: some list all variants separately, some don't. In Welsh, ll (double el) is considered a different letter from plain l. It also considers ch, dd, ff, ng, ph, rh and th to be letters, while it makes do without k, q, v, x and z entirely. Does it therefore use a different alphabet from English? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:15, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Another problem not considered is the issue of what makes a "single language". What one person defines as two dialects of the same language another person may define as two distinct languages. There are no bright lines in these definitions, and at the fuzzy borders, there's going to be a lot of debate about whether two related communications systems represent truly distinct languages or dialects of the same language. It is always worth bringing up the famous idiom a language is a dialect with an army and navy in these discussions. --Jayron32 12:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Actually, outside of the reach of the Roman, Cyrilic, Arabic and Chinese scripts, most scripts are at least close to monolingual, usually used for one big language community and sometimes also for minority languages in close contact with the dominant language. In Mainland Southeast Asia, local scripts like Khmer, Burmese and Thai are also used to write Pali/Sanskrit. The use of Hangul for Cia-Cia was a publicity stunt and only affected speakers in a small part of the speech area, so that's a rather unique case. Having an own script is often felt as a token of linguistic identity (as in India), which even has led to the creation of new scripts in modern times like Ol Chiki, Adlam, or N'Ko (used for a group of closely related languages). Many Berbers will tell you that Tifinagh is monolingual, but that's based on the idea that the Berber languages are a single language. –Austronesier (talk) 11:51, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Apparently the Hebrew script is/was used for Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino, Mozarabic, Levantine Arabic and Hangul is sometimes used for the Cia-Cia language. Georgian script(s) are used by other Kartvelian languages. --195.62.160.60 (talk) 11:21, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Hello, Dodger67. The Mkhedruli script is actually used for other languages of Georgia, such as Laz and Mingrelian, so it is not truly "monolingual". The same is true for the Armenian alphabet, and Japanese kana. Most of the scripts of India are known for writing their primary language, but generally they are also used Sanskrit and minor local languages. I thought Hangul might be an answer, but our article lists several other languages which are written in it. The Cherokee and Vai syllabaries might be examples, though. (Alansplodge, we agree on Cherokee, but Hangul fails as I say. So does Hebrew: It's still in use for Yiddish, and in also for Aramaic in Jewish liturgical use.) --ColinFine (talk) 11:19, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- I think the Tifinagh abjad and its present-day descendants are only used for the family of Berber languages. The Cherokee syllabary is particular to the Cherokee language. --Lambiam 14:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm a bit on thin ice here, as I'm no expert on India, but I believe several of the Dravidian languages have scripts used to write only one language. We're talking about languages with tens of millions of speakers. I'm thinking of the scripts used to write Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada, and Tamil, primarily. Maybe someone can confirm or refute. Mathglot (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Refute, I'm afraid, Mathglot. As mentioned above by me and Austronesier, most (and I think all) of these have also been used for Sanskrit and for minor languages in the same region. So for example Telugu script lists Telugu, Sanskrit, and Gondi language. --ColinFine (talk) 18:20, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Colin. Not sure if dead languages count as much, and then there's the question of "what's a minor language" vs. "a dialect", but I accept your refutation. Mathglot (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Dodger67:: Solitreo was a form of Hebrew cursive used only for Judeo-Spanish language.
- Blissymbols is its own script and language.
- Coptic alphabet may be different of Greek and Old Nubian alphabet or not.
- Linear B is only used for Greek. Indus script and rongorongo may be monolingual. Klingon script is only used for Klingon (I hope). Egyptian hieroglyphs are only used for Egyptian. There were some syllabaries for minority languages in China.
- Error (talk) 09:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
- Error, I'm afraid if we extend the scope of this discussion to dead languages and extinct scripts we might end up in a bottomless rabbit hole; Hieroglyphics, Linear B, Mayan, Runes, Glagolitic, etc... Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2021 (UTC)