Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 June 11
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June 11
[edit]Diphthong question
[edit]Do French and Swedish have any diphthongs? Is aï in French maïs diphthong or hiatus and are oi in French in voix and oj in Swedish pojke diphtongs or semivowels? --40bus (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- If I'm not mistaken, the traditional analysis of Standard Swedish is that it doesn't have diphtongs, and /Vj/ combinations always contain a semivowel. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:45, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- By the way, French 'oi' is generally pronounced as [wɑ], not [ɔɪ], it seems as you might not have been clear about it. (So yes, it's a semivowel.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have been aware of this for a while, and my question about that is: can the [wɑ] be transcribed as [u̯ɑ]? --40bus (talk) 17:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- By the way, French 'oi' is generally pronounced as [wɑ], not [ɔɪ], it seems as you might not have been clear about it. (So yes, it's a semivowel.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- Wiktionary gives two pronunciations for maïs, one from Paris as /ma.is/, two syllables with a hiatus, and a variant from Toulouse as /majs/, a single syllable with a vowel followed by a semivowel. This combination also occurs in the standard pronunciation of French canaille (/ka.naj/), rail (/ʁaj/), travail (/tʁa.vaj/), and many other words. It is generally not considered a diphthong, and neither is /ɛj/ in abeille (/a.bɛj/), /ij/ in coquille (/kɔ.kij/) or /uj/ in ratatouille (/ʁa.ta.tuj/). When followed by a vowel, the vowel and semivowel happily part ways, taking up residence in separate syllables: railler (/ʁa.je/), rayon (/ʁɛ.jɔ̃/), papillon (/pa.pi.jɔ̃/), bouillon (/bu.jɔ̃/). --Lambiam 20:24, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
- Any sequence of a vowel and a semivowel (in either order) in the same syllable is a diphthong. Whether such a sequence is considered one phoneme or two depends on language (and analysis—it's even possible to analyze English as having no phonemic diphthongs). Nardog (talk) 00:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note, though, that – as reported on the French Wikipedia in the section Diphtongue § Existence des diphtongues en français moderne – there are other points of view. --Lambiam 07:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- That section is all about whether French has phonemic diphthongs, and it says, just as I said, it can be analyzed that it does or that it doesn't. [je, ɥi, wa] are, from a cross-linguistic, phonetic point of view, unequivocally diphthongs, in that they stand in contrast to [i.e, y.i, u.a]. Whether that means it is reasonable to posit /je, ɥi, wa/ as distinct phonemes in French is a totally different matter. Nardog (talk) 08:15, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- It is a matter of which definition one prefers. To some authors only phonemic diphthongs are diphthongs; accidental juxtapositions do not qualify.[1][2][3] Arguments for either choice can be given; neither is inherently superior. --Lambiam 19:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- That section is all about whether French has phonemic diphthongs, and it says, just as I said, it can be analyzed that it does or that it doesn't. [je, ɥi, wa] are, from a cross-linguistic, phonetic point of view, unequivocally diphthongs, in that they stand in contrast to [i.e, y.i, u.a]. Whether that means it is reasonable to posit /je, ɥi, wa/ as distinct phonemes in French is a totally different matter. Nardog (talk) 08:15, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note, though, that – as reported on the French Wikipedia in the section Diphtongue § Existence des diphtongues en français moderne – there are other points of view. --Lambiam 07:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- The extra dot in maïs, naïf, haïr signifies hiatus. —Tamfang (talk) 16:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Which does not keep a Toulousian from pronouncing the ⟨aï⟩ in maïs as a vowel followed without hiatus by a semivowel. --Lambiam 06:35, 13 June 2023 (UTC)