Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 October 5

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October 5

4 Chords

Since this question seems to have struck out on the entertainment desk, I'll ask it here. What are all the songs used in the album version of this song? (In order, if possible, since I wanted to download some included that I know I've heard and liked but don't know their name.) I know there's a YouTube video of a live performance of this they did that says all the songs in that version, but the album version appears to be different, and our section on the song only names a few of the songs. Thanks in advance, Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 00:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The list of songs in order are on the 'see more' section on this youtube video. Schyler (exquirere bonum ipsum) 02:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Hiding the entire 'pedia

As I do very regulary, I clicked on an interlanguage link to Italian Wikipedia today and was in for a surprise. From our article as it stands currently: "On October 4, 2011, following a decision adopted by the community, all the contents were hidden and the website was blocked by its administrators, as a protest against the paragraph 29 of the so called "DDL intercettazioni" (Wiretapping Bill)[8], a bill, at the time being debated in the Chamber of Deputies of the Italian parliament." For more information, see Italian Wikipedia. Does anyone know whether this the first time a Wikimedia Foundation project's community decided to deny the public access to the entire collection of information as a form of protest? ---Sluzzelin talk 01:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Is the Italian wikipedia even hosted within Italy? If not, seems like a moot point and someone at the Italian Wikipedia overstepped their authority. What does the Foundation have to say about this? --Nricardo (talk) 02:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

There's something about it on ANI. It's not really protest so much as a safety measure. It doesn't matter that the Wiki's servers aren't in Italy; most of the Italian Wikipedians live in Italy; or most of the Italian-speaking ones anyway. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 02:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"Safety measure"? It's not law yet. It's a bill under debate. --Nricardo (talk) 02:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I could have sworn that's how I saw it characterised there. Maybe I'm wrong. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 02:50, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I think it's a protest. From what I've read about it (which is certainly not in detail), the decreto legge disegno di legge doesn't say anything about individual editors; it's talking about websites. Legally speaking, all Wikipedias are American websites, under the jurisdiction of the law of the State of Florida. --Trovatore (talk) 02:50, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It appears to be primarily a protest. But while I don't speak Italian, my reading from various comments including some which appear to come from Italians on the mailing list and elsewhere is it isn't that clear whether the is any risk to wikipedians. Remember it is ultimately Italian courts (and probably European Court of Human Rights) who will decide whether stuff on wikipedia is immune because the servers are hosted in Florida. What happens if they don't take that view? (Courts in quite a few countries have not cared about where the servers are hosted.) The WMF can of course ignore any fine imposed although it may make things difficult for them and any board members for any dealings in Italy and could potentially lead to wikipedia being blocked there. (See also [1].) However, if you're an admin, you have the ability to delete and protect content and of course any editor can modify unprotected content. If you're an admin in Italy, will you be held responsible for refusing to issue a correction as required by the law, particularly if you're the one who was asked to make a correction (which you can technically do) and were the one who originally posted the 'false' information? Note that unless the law is very clear you're not responsible, many admins and editors are unlikely to want to be a test case so may simply stop editing or otherwise change their editing in some way to avoid the risk. At that very least, the protest may make the government think about such issues when drafting the law. BTW, this isn't completely unique to Italy, some people do wonder about the risk of libel lawsuits in countries like the UK, Australia and NZ where libel laws are generally more plantiff friendly. Nil Einne (talk) 09:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

See meta:Wikimedia Forum#Italian Wikipedia for some information and discussion in English. It appears from http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-October/069258.html that the Wikimedia Foundation was taken by surprise and doesn't have a clear position yet but expresses sympathy. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Typical absurdist street theater of the left, with not a "community" but a clique taking upon themselves the right to vandalize the website for partisan effect. Why not just delete all articles on the right, its figures, causes and issues? Or would that be too obvious. μηδείς (talk) 03:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(lol, sometimes you make me wonder whether you're for real) Hey! I'm asking about similar cases in the past, not about legal (or polemical) ramifications of this particular situation! ---Sluzzelin talk 03:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

About 50% of the time, and this is one of them. Any sentence using community as a subject is necessarily a lie. For similar situations see Beerhall Putsch, Morton Downey, Jr. and the death of Rachel Corrie. μηδείς (talk) 04:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't get the context (might be this headache). One's an attempted coup d'etat (my keyboard is English/Hebrew/German, not French) of the Weimar Republic and the other is a lady jumping in front of large bulldozer where the driver couldn't see her (with the result being what one would expect). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 04:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, of what phenomenon I mentioned in my immediately prior post could the incidents be considered examples? μηδείς (talk) 05:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

People being compelled to commit immensely stupid acts by lies or at the very least false truths and misconceptions? Guess I see that now. Mmmmm, this topic is making me hungry for Knockwürste and pancakes. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 19:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The OP has a point. No one answered his question. Are there similar cases? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 03:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Not unless you count the software and network hardware protesting improper configuration by human error. There have also been projects closed and withdrawn due to lack of activity. 69.171.160.19 (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe so. Then again, I'm not aware if there have been any major issues like this in recent times in countries where an online protest is likely to make any difference which don't speak English. (It was mentioned in the mailing list it's fairly pointless to do in protest about something in China.) I'm guessing the Italian wikipedia protest was part of a wider online protest in Italy. There have been online protests about laws in NZ which have entailed people doing something to their websites (the one in NZ got the support of at least one well known right-wing blogger as well as those on the left) and I think Australia, the US and possibly Canada and the UK. But obviously trying to blank the English wikipedia because of laws in one specific English speaking country is not likely to get sufficient support. Other issues have came up before like disputes with the WMF e.g. the Spanish fork/ad issue and I think there was an Acehnese issue which has lead to a large section of the community leaving. Some people in the mailing list suggested the German wikipedia may try to do the blanking thing due to the WMF's proposed optional image filter. But trying to protest against something the WMF are doing by blanking their resources is far less likely to get their limited support as this case seems to have gotten. Nil Einne (talk) 09:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Ultimately the WMF have the right to decide what goes on in their servers. It clear from the above and [2] that while the WMF were taken by surprise, they feel it was an acceptable action (not necessarily what they feel was the best course of action) when back by a robust community (their word) process which they currently feel were used in this case. Medeis's personal views on the community are completely moot and their view that it's not a community while their prerogative is also moot, the WMF is entitled to do what they wish with webpages hosted by them and how decisions are made on what goes on. Medeis's belief that they are entitled to dictate how the WMF manages their affairs is clearly what is ridiculous and absurdist. If they don't like how the WMF manages their affairs, they are completely free to use someone else's servers. Nil Einne (talk) 08:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

As noted here,[3] Wikimedia Foundation supports this move, as a stand against censorship. We have frequent battles on English Wikipedia when a public figure (or a fan of a public figure) doesn't like what was posted. This proposed law would give such public figure the right to legally dictate the contents of wikipedia, and that is unacceptable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If the law passes, the Italian Wikipedia will have to be shut down anyway. Italy would become one giant COI. But then again, with a prime minister that controls the media and have a huge economic COI already, not surprising.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 14:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It is the Italian Wikipedia, not the Italian Wikipedia. If the law restricts content about Sig. Berlusconi or any Italian citizen, I would imagine it is restricted under Italian law whatever language it is written in: WMF could decide to establish a Swiss Italian 'pedia just to clarify that the contents are not aimed at one country. Sussexonian (talk) 17:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

But what about non-Italian Italian speakers? Such as Italian speakers in Switzerland? Precisely because Wikipedias are specific to languages, not to countries, this would mean that no one would be able to read Wikipedia in Italian, no matter where they lived. Imagine if this happened to the German Wikipedia - Austrians and Swiss would be affected too. Or to the French Wikipedia - Belgians, Monegasque, Swiss, Canadians and other people would be affected too. Not to mention the English Wikipedia, which would affect almost the entire world. JIP | Talk 18:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, but in my amateur view the issues this law raises with respect to the Italian Wikipedia are not different in kind from the ones it raises for any other Wikipedia, including English Wikipedia. Legally, Italian Wikipedia and English Wikipedia are exactly the same — they are hosted in Florida, and edited by people from all over the world. No one is proposing that we close English Wikipedia because of this law, as far as I know.

It sounds like a truly awful law and if this protest manages somehow to help prevent its adoption, I'll be happy about that. But the claims being made that Italian Wikipedia would "have to shut down" don't make much sense to me. --Trovatore (talk) 18:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a minor point, but Wikipedia also has servers in the Netherlands, according to [4]. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Italian Wikipedia is predominantly edited by Italians, isn't it? Even if Wikipedia itself is safe from prosecution (?), the Italian users aren't. And that has happened before. What would WMF have to do then? Block all Italian IP's? Fullprot all biographies on notable Italians? -- Obsidi♠n Soul 20:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia cannot allow specific editors to dictate content unilaterally. That's why, if such a law passes, Italy wikipedia is history. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. It's not "Italy wikipedia". It's Wikipedia in Italian. I edit it (admittedly, not extremely often) from the United States, and I do not see any way that my edits to it.wiki have any different legal status from my edits to en.wiki. --Trovatore (talk) 20:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not nonsense, it's a serious threat to wikipedia and a dangerous precedent. And it's necessary to do this before the law gets voted on, to send a message. Maybe the Italian wikipedia users can influence the result of that vote. Maybe not. But it's worth a try. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

And where do most Italian-speaking editors live? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 20:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Probably most of them live in Italy. As far as I can see that doesn't affect the legal issue in any way whatsoever, as far as it concerns the Foundation.

Now, it may affect those editors who live in Italy. But they will also be affected when editing en.wiki. So once again, no difference. --Trovatore (talk) 20:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I loved this comment from SERGIO on it.wiki:

• Commento: Favorevole anche a mettere in coda a ogni pagina, e in testa in prima pagina, un discléimer : "Cari azzeccagarbugli, se volete chiedere rettifiche & smentite, rivolgetevi a Wikimedia Foundation etc. etc., San Francisco USA. Questa non è Wikipedia Italia, è Wikipedia in lingua italiana, capitolo linguistico e non regionale, e quindi è editabile da chiunque nel mondo conosca la lingua italiana, ed è fuori dalla giurisdizione italiana. Pertanto nessun amministratore o burocrate è responsabile della conduzione del sito, la quale ricade sotto la responsabilità del soggetto indicato in &pigrafe. Distinti saluti e andate a cercar rogna da qualche altra parte". -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 20:38, 3 ott 2011 (CEST)

  BC: Tu credi che gli azzeccagarbugli siano interessati ad individuare il foro di competenza o piuttosto a fare casino a tutela del preteso buon nome dei loro assistiti? --78.15.3.217 (msg) 20:44, 3 ott 2011 (CEST)

  Se uno vuole un buon nome si comporta comm'il faut, la sai la poesia di Trilussa su Giove e il lupo no? Peraltro sulle garanzie di ogni prodotto, dai frigoriferi ai vibratori a pile, c'è scritto: "Per ogni controversia è competente il foro di XXXXX". Se un avvocato legge e se ne frega, allora il suo cliente lo deve cambiare e scegliersene uno che non ha preso la laurea con i punti Mira Lanza. -- SERGIO ^{(aka the Blackcat)} 00:24, 4 ott 2011 (CEST)

I hate to be an ugly American, but could you please translate that? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:09, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Roughly, with apologies to SERGIO for any errors, he says

For even putting at the end of every page, and at the top of the first page, a disclaimer: "Dear shysters, if you want to ask for corrections and denials, direct yourselves to Wikimedia Foundation etc etc, San Francisco, USA. This is not Wikipedia Italy; it's Wikipedia in Italian language, a lingustic rather than regional chapter, and therefore is editable by anyone who knows the Italian language, and is outside Italian jurisdiction. In any case (?) no administrator or bureaucrat is responsable for the conduct of the site, which falls under the reponsibility of the subject indicated above (?). Respectfully and go look to stir up trouble somewhere else.

Then responding to someone who asks whether shysters will bother to look for the appropriate forum, he suggests that their clients should go look for someone who didn't get his law degree by sending in box tops. --Trovatore (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"Probably" and "may"? Heh. Bit of an understatement there. But yes, I suppose, the rest of Wikipedia can go on, including the Italian Wikipedia, which won't have any Italians in it... like making apple pies without apples. And again, even if Wikipedia itself is immune, its Italian users wouldn't be. IP's can be traced, and users who had disclosed personal info prosecuted if they piss off someone and fail to revdel something within 48 hours. You'd basically be left with an Italian expat Wikipedia. I don't think it'd sit well with WMF if they just threw their users to the wolves. -- Obsidi♠n Soul 21:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's pointed to this article from the Wikipedia Signpost from two days ago, which contains links to debates about this. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

At present, that link just produces "Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.". Edison (talk) 23:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the site is run by Bank of America. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Quran app and tafirs app

which website is the best when it comes to downloading the quran app with different recitation and tafsir apps like qutb, maududi and it is free? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.230.215 (talk) 15:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

On which platform? iOS, Android, or BlackBerry? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 19:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

cutting concrete strips on highway

On Highway 9 in Manitoba between Winnipeg and Selkirk there is work being done to repair the highway.I noticed that cuts about 5' wide by 10' long are being made every 10 to 15 feet.Re-bar is then inserted on either side of the cut and then concrete was poured back over the cut in the highway.What is the purpose of just cutiing out portions of a highway for miles and then filling them in again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricky439 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Expansion joints?--78.148.137.187 (talk) 16:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Automobile

I have purchased a Honda Activa deluxe scooter 20 months back. I have a problem with the scooter since 8 months. It is starting problem. I normally kick start in the morning and after about three KMs if I stop the engine and start again with push button start it doesn't work. When I stop the engine at traffic signal for green signal, and when I restart I face difficulties. Four or five times I have to try for starting the engine. Suppliers, Muthoot Motors was not able to solve the problem. Could any one help me the reason why this happens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.254.148.10 (talk) 17:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

A mechanic gave me this advice: spark, fuel, oxygen gives you action. If no action then you are missing one of these. Is a scooter an automobile? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Just don't listen to that mechanic if you are driving a Tesla Roadster. Googlemeister (talk) 20:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

In the case of an electrified vehicle, the spark-fuel-oxygen part occurs at the power plant. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh Really, Bugs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.27.27 (talk) 11:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

There's no escaping the fact that somewhere along the way, fuel and heat are required. And since the typical car is still an internal combustion engine, the mechanic's advice is generally good - especially if he knows what kind of car the driver is driving. (And the Honda Activa does appear to be a traditional engine and not electric.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

There's no escaping the fact that your first answer was, as it regularly is, just completely and utterly misleading. And in the answer above, even after prompting, has it escaped your notice that "Fuel and heat" are not required in hydro generation? This is why we despair of your answers on the RDs, bugs, and always have. Is there any possibility that you could rein yorself in and only answer when you actually know what you're talking about? --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The one user's interjection about the Tesla Roadster was totally irrelevant to the OP's question. It was, of course, just a joke. Feel free to sling some of your as-always useless snippiness in his direction also. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:06, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

It just depends on how far back you want to take things. Hydro power works of course because water flows downhill. Well and good, but without heat to evaporate water and create rain uphill of your hydropower plant, you are going to have a problem. Heck if you are not getting heat from the sun, all your water is going to be ice, and I have not seen any designs for a power plant which uses glacial motion. The heat of course comes from the sun, which uses hydrogen as fuel in a fusion reaction. Googlemeister (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

If an engine won't start when it is warm/hot, check that the fuel tank vent isn't blocked (generally in the filler cap) and check the ignition module. Sometimes, when an ignition module expands due to heat, the soldered contacts inside become disconnected. Also, I suggest that you find another mechanic. Motorbikes are very simple to get going. --TrogWoolley (talk) 13:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• When you press the start button what actually happens? Can you hear the starter turn the engine over but the engine does not fire OR is there silence? Also, are you a femail driver (this will help me tell you where to kick the mechanic to engage his brain).--Aspro (talk) 16:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Silicon Valley Job Statistic

On average, how many applicants are there per physical job opening (meaning the job is for people who would physically report there for work) in Silicon Valley where the job is in the umbrella category of "Programmer"? I know there are lots of BLS statistics on jobs, but I haven't seen statistics saying how many applied for positions filled, and I'm curious if the average person applying for one job of this type tends to be competing with 10, 100, 1000 or another number of other people. 20.137.18.53 (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You can always ask. It really depends on the job type (medical, finance, technology, etc.) and how it is advertised. You might find this surprising, but the IT industry is pretty small, and everyone seems to know everyone else. Who you know and who you've worked for in the past, what school you attended, and your age plays a huge role in hiring, and at the end of the day, there's really a limited pool of applicants. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I do see this from earlier this year stating that 75,000 people applied for 6,000 jobs at Google, though it doesn't state that all 6,000 of those were the kind of job I specified in my original question. I would think that for jobs posted publicly, there are normally many like the 75,000 who are probably not in the in-group and don't have any connections to help their chances of getting real consideration. 20.137.18.53 (talk) 17:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Has the popularity of kasher food increased in the United States?

(Note, kasher is the proper term for English term, kosher, and I shall be using this term in place of the English one) This is a two-parter. I was at a Harris Teeter in Arlington, VA and was surprised/delighted to see a kasher frozen food section there with three freezers devoted to kasher foods (goods one too). This doesn't seem like a normal spot to have kasher food (though there might be a burgeoning Jewish population there, they could be appealing to the large Jewish student population in Washington). So here's the questions:

First, has the popularity of food marketed as kasher (ones from kasher brands, not just ones that have kasher certification) increased in the United States? By that I mean; are they now more widely sold here compared to say, 10 years ago?

The second question is: Has application for kashrut certification, in general, increased in the US among food companies? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 20:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

For those unfamiliar with the chain, Harris Teeter is a grocery store chain. Dismas|^(talk) 20:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Knew I forgot to wikilink something; guess it would be neccessary as some convenience stores have frozen food sections. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 20:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Why then does our Kashrut article say in the secondsentence "Food in accord with halakha (Jewish law) is termed kosher in English". Are you asserting that the article is wrong, or making some other point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by tagishsimon (talk • contribs)

I prefer using the Hebrew term for Hebrew concepts; I only put the explanation so as to avoid confusion. I don't really see how this is relevant to my question though. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 20:50, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

We often digress. Surely כַּשְׁרוּת is the Hebrew term, and kasher merely some sort of argument over the English transliteration? --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Kashrut is the law. Kashrut certification means that the item is in accordance with the laws of kashrut. Surely you have seen כשר לפסח (not כושר לפסח), and no o, nikkud on it, rather an a sound is there. My Israeli gf, Prof. Yaron Peleg and this delicious box of King David Matzot all agree with me. However it does happen from time to time that in very crummy transliterations to English people put o for a; a good example is Mogen Dovid, which I've seen a few times. Now, anyone have any statistics? :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 20:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC) Edit: As well, .כ.ש.ר is the shoresh of both words, so they're quite related. Though my Hebrew is still a bit limited, when I think about it, I'll bet that כושר can function as a verb and basically be the singular male form of "to make fit" - אני כושר, אתה כושר, הוא כושר. Know what I mean? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Oops. Bit of a cut & paste error. Meanwhile Kasher gets 1.3M ghits. Kosher 42.3M. Presumably the English speaking world prefers the crummy transliteration? --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

People tend to use the one term over the other if that is the only one term they have heard. I only knew of kosher until I learned Hebrew. What is the point you are trying to make? I'm afraid I don't quite understand. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

We tend to use common terms on wikipedia. I'm always interested when someone insists on an uncommon and unfamiliar term; always worth digging into. I'm not seeking to make a point. I'm asking questions. Not least, I'm interested in whether or not we're missing some information from the kashrut article, which is silent on the use of kasher. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Uh huh, and I've edited Wikipedia for quite a while so I'm familiar with that fact. I already gave the term's use and explanation when I started this topic: "(Note, kasher is the proper term for English term, kosher, and I shall be using this term in place of the English one)" I am really just using the proper transliteration of an originally foreign word. Now do you have any statistics or anything to answer my actual question? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(ec) It's probably that the term "kosher" has been adopted as the proper term in English, and that you succeeded in distracting everyone from actually answering your question by insisting on using a nonstandard term. Like flies to poop, pedants like myself swarm all over the arguably incorrect word. I would avoid doing that in the future if you want answers to questions. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If said pedants choose to do that it is not really my fault (self-control is very important for any pedant to learn). I will use proper terms if I see fit and simply ignore pedantic behaviour from people unfamiliar with the topic. :p Now does any Wikipedian want to use this Ref Desk to answer my question? This is kind of putting me off using refdesk. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sadly, a question still hangs over whether or not it is "the proper term". You cannot legislate for people being more interested in an obscure corner of your question than its main theme. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Just saying that this sort of focus on such a tiny thing is very off-putting, not trying to regulate anything. This is the last I'll say on this topic here. Etymology of the English term, Kosher. If you want to discuss it further I politely request you do so on my user talk. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If it was such a tiny thing to you, why make it the first sentence of your post? The first sentence the bit we're all guaranteed to read. (Was there more to your post? ;-) ) A foreign term is NOT the "proper" term. The proper is the one the linguists tell us we use the most and which has a totally clear meaning. Kosher fits that description perfectly. HiLo48 (talk) 23:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

If everyone started their question with "For reasons I will refuse explain I shall be using a foreign word in place of one of the English words in my question." I don't think we'd manage to answer a single question! :-) (By the way. The word "desk" is actually a corruption of the medieval Latin "desca", so I'll be using the correct term on the reference desca from now on.) APL (talk) 09:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

In fact, according to EO,[5] it comes from the Greek diskos (disc). (And to "refer" is to "ferry back".) Maybe the ref desk should be renamed the "disko-take". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:51, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

There was some discussion in the New York Times over the last year about the fact that many non-Jews are buying kosher in the hopes that it will be ethically or chemically better for them, in the same way they seek out organic food.[6] So that might be responsible for some up-tick in things, though I don't know if that's made much of a difference at a place like Harris Teeter's (generally catering to a more up-scale and more picky customer than your average Safeway shopper, though not quite as picky as a Whole Foods shopper) in a place like Arlington (which is more Mid-Atlantic than it is South, and is a lot easier to get to by car from DC than most DC supermarkets, which have barely any parking). --Mr.98 (talk) 21:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Here we go. Ah, this is good to see. More goyim buying kasher = more kasher food in general. Hmmm, judging by the places you pointed out, I think you know the neighbourhood I'm currently living in. One thing I noticed at the new Whole Foods (you know the one I mean if I am right in my assumption) is that there is very little kasher food there; in fact, even their challot are non-kasher. They have gotten a bit more kasher in though recently after many people complained, but that might just be Rosh haShana (I wrote in and said that it was funny to sad to see more kasher in Safeway than Whole Foods which claims to be a health food store). It is good to see it on the rise though so that more kasher food is more widely available (which is why I asked the question, I want to see if it is becoming easier to get kasher food elsewhere than NYC). Fairways are also spreading fast and they are known for their big kasher selection. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Not that it matters, but I don't live in Arlington. I do shop there occasionally, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I was talking about Foggy Bottom. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 8 Tishrei 5772 02:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Arlington, VA may not have a large Jewish population, but if you went to the Harris Teeter that I think you did, it's a well-regarded superstore that tends to draw in people from other communities -- and there are a lot of Jews in the capital region. The nearby small towns of Falls Church and Fairfax City have some of the highest concentrations of Jews in the USA, and Jewish concentration in nearby Washington, DC and Alexandria, VA is double the national average. --M@rēino 21:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

That would definitely make sense. Like I said, there's the Jewish student population. You have the Blue Line metro at GW which goes right to Pentagon City where that Harris Teeter is. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 21:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Kosher food trend is probably your friend. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I've read that most people who buy kosher food aren't even Jewish. Kosher food has a reputation of being "cleaner" than non-kosher food. Vegetarians like to buy non-meat kosher food because they know it won't contain any meat. Muslims may buy kosher food because they know there's no pork. I see people who likely aren't Orthodox Jews browsing the kosher section at my local store all the time. See [7]. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It's also because kashrut is in accordance with halal (and vice-versa to some extent, though they do allow for mixing of meat and milk and camel is a halal animal). I have seen the healthy angle used a few times. Some cases it's true, sometimes not. You never know, they might be a conservative (who are strict sometimes) or reform (not so strict) in disguise. :p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 8 Tishrei 5772 02:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

On page 193 of Leo Rosten's The Joys of Yiddish, he lists Kosher and says it's from Hebrew kasher (meaning "fit", "proper", "appropriate", "permissible") and then he uses the English word "kosher" in the rest of the entry. In fact, he says, "Kosher is probably the Hebrew word most widely encountered in English." And just to clarify, as per my old Webster's, kasher is Hebrew and kosher is Yiddish (and English). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The OP clearly states that "kasher is the proper term for English term, kosher", whilst failing to understand that the proper term for the English term 'kosher', is in fact, the English term 'kosher' as it is, in fact, the term, in English. Without giving us another definition for the phrase 'proper term', claiming that 'the proper term' for a 'term' already in current use is more 'proper' than the term already in current use makes no sense. The English version of the word comes from Yiddish, not Hebrew - and this is the accepted term in English - by which I mean, the 'proper term'. This is like arguing that the word 'elohim' should instead be 'allah', simply because they are etymologically related. Or arguing that 'paradise' really means anything made out of dough. Also, as stated above, the OP would get better answers if he were not to use words or phrases which distract from the main point of the question. Some of us here may be pedants, but many of us are also linguists. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)