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September 1

Hostage update

In the article Israel-Hamas war hostage crisis, does the latest tally of the dead include the 6 bodies recovered last night, or not? (Source: [1]https://www.timesofisrael.com/bodies-of-6-hostages-murdered-by-hamas-just-days-earlier-found-in-rafah-idf/ ) 2601:646:8082:BA0:C9A8:A23F:68B1:8029 (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we can see from this edit that several numbers were increased or decreased by six. Card Zero (talk) 11:05, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update! 2601:646:8082:BA0:C9A8:A23F:68B1:8029 (talk) 22:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 3

Dark-skinned mixed black-white people

Is it possible that a mixed race black-white person can be dark-skinned? 86.130.217.84 (talk) 19:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. Witness the furore about the speculation about the colour of the then-unborn child of Meghan and Harry. (Btw, for the life of me I still can't understand what that issue was all about. Harry is white, and Meghan has half-African ancestry, so zillions of people were already wondering about and talking about this very question. But for a member of the Royal Family to voice such a thought - shock! horror! How dare they! I have a lot of respect for Oprah, but she seemed to be the main culprit in fanning the flames of this confected outrage.)

The technical term is mulatto. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:20, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I remember my black uncle and white aunt wondering about the colour of their unborn children. And tbh I didn't realise Meghan was black until I was told. Hey ho. DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barack Obama, with a white mother and a black father, is fairly dark-skinned. He would have been called "mulatto" in the old days, though that term has fallen out of favor (to say the least). Going farther back, Roy Campanella was mixed-race and dark-skinned. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, don't say "mulatto" in London, it won't end well. Alansplodge (talk) 18:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't keep up with what's deemed to be offensive today that wasn't offensive yesterday. Can anyone make a submission to the committee that makes these decisions? Is there any formal appeals process? We have this ridiculous cultural situation now where people feel constrained to avoid certain words because of their alleged innate offensiveness. I remember when "negro" was widely used by the African-American community; Martin Luther King Jr. used it all the time, and he wasn't about offending his own people. It was the standard expression, and it wasn't offensive, innately or in any other way. But somehow its very essence has magically changed, and now it's innately offensive. As for the N-word, we can't even say the word that "N-word" represents, not even in some theoretical context where nobody is using it in reference to anybody else.

Get this: there is no such thing as a word that is inherently offensive. Some people get offended by certain words, while others don't have that experience of those exact same words.

The other aspect of the cultural thing is that for someone to be offended by something someone else says has become a fate worse than death, so we must all weave our way gingerly through the cultural and linguistic minefield we've created, to ensure that never happens. People are dying in wars and famines everywhere, kids are getting massacred in schools every day, DJT was elected president - there's no end of these disasters. How come people don't get mightily offended by any of that; offended enough to actually do something to change them? I guess that all seems too hard, so we stick to what we can manage (whether we should manage them seems never to be considered). We've become exactly like the Nazi book-burners and the Index of Prohibited Books, except we're all to some degree complicit in creating these Regimes of Fear and then making sure we keep ourselves under own thumbs. Neat trick that: self-repression in an age where self-expression is lauded as the sine qua non of what human life is all about. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC) [reply]

The solution is simple: Consideration for others. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, certainly. The trouble is, the things we're enjoined to be considerate about, and the list of Words We Must Not Use, grow longer every day. Ultimately, we might end up with a wordless language. (something to brush up on while eating foodless sandwiches). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you would be offended if someone calls you a moron. You may not be personally offended if you hear the term applied to someone else, but presumably it may diminish your respect for the speaker. But when American psychologist Henry H. Goddard coined the term in 1910 it was a technical, non-offensive term, meant for clinical use. The adjective dumb was likewise originally not offensive. Terms may become offensive through how they are used.

The censure that may be bestowed on someone using a non-PC term, unaware of its newly acquired non-PC status, usually does not come from someone who the term refers to, but from the self-appointed PC police. It is more productive to explain why a term is now considered offensive. --Lambiam 23:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be even more productive to explain how, societally, we've become addicted to being offended. The formula "That word is offensive, so I must be offended by its use, whether directed towards me or anyone else; and I must speak up" has become a sort of 11th Commandment. Also, to explain why being offended has become a fate worse than death. Put those together, and we've become addicted to a fate worse than death. Is it just because people can take legal action and potentially get millions of dollars just because someone said some nasty words to them? Is that how we're teaching our children to be resilient, and to focus on the things that matter? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Halle Berry, I believe, also has a blond mother. —Tamfang (talk) 18:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ahem: [2] AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fraternal twins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Following Human skin color § Melanin and genes and later sections, the genes that determine the amount of melanin produced (and other determiners of skin color) are somewhat scattered around the world, and combine with partial dominance. Assuming you're using a U.S.-based concept of race and color (and if I understand the articles correctly) one can have two light-skinned Europeans who carries a number of such alleles mate, and if the carried alleles all make it to the embryo, then the child can have significantly darker skin than both parents. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: I knew this already, as one of my ancestors wrote a book on the subject which I read many years ago. [3]. I was rather delighted to see this blurb:

This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it.

[4]

Sort of nachas in reverse! 2.102.11.143 (talk) 15:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the law on this see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 March 8#Why do Americans care so much about the British royals? 2.102.11.143 (talk) 16:40, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The few dark-skinned mixed race actors/fictional characters I've noticed were... From Small Island, Hortense Roberts (Naomie Harris) who had a white father and Michael Jr (Hugh Quarshie) whose mother was white, Laura Harrier whose mother is of Polish and English descent and her Spider-Man: Homecoming character Liz who had a white father. 86.130.217.84 (talk) 18:24, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 5

welcome template

What are the most used Welcome templates? 2603:8001:6940:2100:7C09:7771:CAEC:BA36 (talk) 01:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are too many; WP:WT list 35 "general" ones and many more special ones. Since they are supposed to be subst:ed, it is not easy to count the uses, but I think simply {{subst:Welcome}} is by far the most commonly used, and then probably {{subst:Welcome cookie}} and {{subst:Welcome-t}}. --Lambiam 09:12, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I asked this because Of these tiny! templates used for replying in dicussions and noticeboards and I'm trying to find the perfect one. 2603:8001:6940:2100:3231:35E2:C35B:EC74 (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

more please 2603:8001:6940:2100:3231:35E2:C35B:EC74 (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 7

Give me some examples of former admins who “turned to the dark side” by vandalizing pages, causing them to get blocked.

Just out of curiosity 74.12.82.205 (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is a little-know "fact" that a certain Sith lord kept on committing vandalism even after being blocked by creating a sockpuppet: User:Darth Evader. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We admins are "the dark side". Mjroots (talk) 18:03, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Racism against the Duchess of Sussex

Has there been racism against the marriage of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex due to Meghan being half-black on her mother's side? 86.130.217.84 (talk) 18:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A quote from Oprah with Meghan and Harry: "Moreover, Meghan critiqued the British monarchy as an institution, while they both said one or more comments had been made privately to Harry by an unidentified individual within the royal family in relation to the skin color of their then-unborn son, Prince Archie." --Lambiam 20:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consider also the fate of BBC Radio presenter Danny Baker, whose career was terminated after a rascist tweet about the Sussex's newborn son: Danny Baker fired by BBC over royal baby chimp tweet. Alansplodge (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Claims of racism by M&H against the RF have been widely dismissed by those outside M&H's circle. Mjroots (talk) 18:02, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 8

Why are Calico cats always female?

Meanwhile, other animals with the “Calico/Tricolor Pattern” can be male, including Dogs, Rabbits, and Guinea Pigs. 74.12.82.205 (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Calico cat is almost always female because being the colors are linked to the cat's sex chromosomes, specifically the X chromosomes. Male cats can be calico but it'd be due to a genetic disorder that causes them to have multiple X chromosomes. - Purplewowies (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve seen that detail online before. Additionally, can tricolor Guinea Pigs, Dogs, and Rabbits be male? 74.12.82.205 (talk) 19:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Googling the subject of "calico" dogs, there's a quora answer[5] that says the sources of the tri-color in dogs are not tied to the X-chromosomes like they are in cats. You could probably check Google for other animals as well. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:02, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 9

Was Wilbur "Bud" E. Dutton a US government employee?

I have some images at Commons in Commons:Category:Photographs by Wilbur E. Dutton. When they were automatically uploaded, the source had incorrect 1900 dates. The dates have since been corrected to the '60s and '70s, so these are copyrighted unless the photographer was a government employee. The fact that the images come from NPGallery suggests that he might have been, but doesn't guarantee it. I didn't turn up any information about the photographer with some quick Googling. Can anybody with some more research skills find any information about him? – BMacZero (🗩) 19:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dutton is listed here as Production Manager in the Division of Audovisual Arts in a Directory of the National Park Service from the 1960s, so he was clearly a federal employee. He is also mentioned here (p. 46) as member of (apparently) an NPS team taping interviews with Rose Kennedy in 1967–8 in the context of the project of making JFK's birthplace a National Historic Site. Not to be confused with Wilmer Coffman (Bud) Dutton, Staff Director of the NCPC from 1962 to 1965, and in that position also a federal employee. --Lambiam 22:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: Great source, thanks a lot for your help! – BMacZero (🗩) 23:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Were these pics taken on behalf of the government, or were they just personal snapshots? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Baseball Bugs: Yeah, that's also a consideration. Because these uploads are coming from NPGallery, which is an official database of the National Park Service, I've been comfortable assuming that they are not personal photographs, at least if photography could conceivably have been one of the author's official duties. It seems unlikely that a photographer for the NPS would upload personal photos to the NPS's official database. – BMacZero (🗩) 23:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The photographs by Dutton in the NPGallery are presented with the boilerplate No Copyright - United States text: "The organization that has made the Item available believes that the Item is in the Public Domain under the laws of the United States". In this case, "the organization" is the NPS, and the only plausible explanation for their belief is that they know, or have reason to believe, that Dutton shot them in his capacity as NPS employee. --Lambiam 08:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 11

Question about a drumming effect

On some songs, drummers use an effect that seems to increase the pace of the music, while actually keeping the same time. As I have no musical training at all, I'll make an effort to describe it... bear with me... it's a couple of extra beats, perhaps including a drum with a deeper tone.

Maybe this will help more. Phil Collins uses this effect quite often in his version of You Can't Hurry Love.

So... what's that called?

--Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 09:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe syncopation? 196.50.199.218 (talk) 13:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Here's the Supremes version for comparison [6]. 2A00:23D0:D7F:1901:3DA8:CEC:84B0:B7E7 (talk) 13:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By no means a reliable source but here is a blog that discusses it. https://www.musicology.blog/behind-the-beat-unraveling-the-timeless-appeal-of-phil-collins-cant-hurry-love/ 196.50.199.218 (talk) 13:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, it says: "The tempo of "Can't Hurry Love" is a lively 194 beats per minute (BPM), which contributes to the energetic and danceable nature of the song. It’s worth noting that this tempo is slightly faster than The Supremes’ 1966 original, which had a BPM of 181, giving Collins’ version an added sense of urgency and excitement. The song's drumbeat is particularly interesting, featuring a syncopated rhythm that emphasizes the upbeat and propels the song forward. Collins, being a drummer himself, adds his own personal touch to this element of the song." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been searching, but I can't find a book we have on Motown with lengthy interviews with Holland and Dozier. I remember that one of them claimed that because they normally worked with the singers and musicians separately the other one had Diana Ross singing to a half-speed beat. Then, the music was recorded at full speed. Combined, her vocals fit the beat well, but the lull in her voice introduced tension because it wasn't fitting perfectly with the syncopated drums that all of the instruments were playing along with. I hope we didn't lose that book. It had all kinds of interesting tidbits like purposely making Levi Stubbs sing above his normal range to make it sound more emotional. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 14:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for not referring to the question though. Syncopation accents the offbeat. If you omit the down beat consistently, it is commonly referred to as playing on the backbeat (very popular in early rock and roll). The beat in You Can't Hurry Love doesn't omit the down beat. It keeps it for most of the rhythm, then omits it once followed by a backbeat fill. That missing beat followed by the fill makes it seem more anxious or peppy. That is why that specific beat was used in many other songs, notably Lust for Live and Are You Going to Be My Girl. Trivia bit: VOA used it in on-air station identification morse-code (fake code, not a real message) in the 70s. Some have claimed that while in Germany, Bowie and Pop heard VOA's ads and lifted the beat from there instead of lifting it directly from You Can't Hurry Love. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Flams? [7] Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some truly excellent and informative responses already here. Shame I don't give out awards for Ref Desk threads any more. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 11:05, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean gated reverb? Collins was instrumental (ugh, sorry) in developing and popularizing the effect. Matt Deres (talk) 15:37, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 12

Le Lyonnais shipwreck

Hi, I was curious about the recent discovery of a shipwreck that occurred on 2 November, 1856: [8]. I cannot find mention in Wikipedia (neither EN nor FR) of either the wrecked French ship, Le Lyonnais, nor the American ship Adriatic, though there are several British ships by that name. The above article states 114 people died of the 132 passengers and crew, so this was a tragic and major event. Could you help me confirm this is not already in Wikipedia somewhere, before I attempt to draft a new article? Harris7 (talk) 11:55, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Adriatic (ship). 2A00:23C5:E161:9200:4553:8C87:5013:6612 (talk) 12:06, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I see now that "just one more search" (for the string "le lyonnais" within any article, rather than page title) would have led me to that article. Harris7 (talk) 12:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Harris7: Lyonnais is listed at List of shipwrecks in November 1856#4 November. Mjroots (talk) 17:23, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quotes on astrology

Hi, I would like to find the original authors of two quotes on astrology:

A planet does not have any astrological influence until it is discovered
—misattributed to Linda Goodman in Weird Science by Michael White

Stars remember the influence of the constellations that corresponded to them two thousand years ago
—attributed to some "~~sidereal~~tropical" astrologer in Science and the Paranormal, edited by G. O. Abell and B. Singer.

-- Carnby (talk) 20:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know the first one was misattributed? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I checked Weird Science on Internet Archive. Attribution was: Linda Goodman's Star Signs NY: Bantam Books 1968 (no pages). First edition of Star Signs was published in 1988 (St. Martin Press, N.Y.); in 1968 Goodman published Sun Signs (Taplinger, N.Y.). However, neither books contain that statement. Carnby (talk) 06:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The concept is at least implied in Star Signs in various places where it prognosticates the discovery of a planet which will change the rules. For instance, "The Number 6 vibrates to the planet Venus. It represents the feminine essence, compassion, and (until Venus gives up her rulership of Taurus when the planet Pan-Horus is discovered) also money." In Sun Signs I found the concept stated in detail: "It's important to mention here the still unseen planet Vulcan, the true ruler of Virgo, since its discovery is said to be imminent. The discovery of the true ruler of a sign changes the characteristics of those born under it. To give only one example, during the period when both Aquarius and Capricorn were ruled by Saturn, the February-born, such as Abraham Lincoln, clearly showed the melancholy traits of that planet. But when Uranus (the symbol of electronics and space, and the true ruler of Aquarius) was discovered—in its proper time in the universal plan—Aquarians began to reflect qualities of restless discovery, and a more electric, unpredictable, progressive personality, such as that of Uranus-ruled Aquarian Franklin D. Roosevelt." Card Zero (talk) 08:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen the argument, in which it suggested that due to the precession of the equinoxes the traits of the signs of the tropical zodiac (sun signs) are based on the alleged properties of the constellations they are named after but which they no longer occupy, so the predictions are based on "the properties of empty space." The answer was that the modern sun signs are not devoid of stars. In any event, astrologers make predictions based on the positions of the "planets" (including the sun and moon) and the angles (aspects) between them, which are unaffected by precession. Sidereal astrology does not have this problem. 2A00:23C5:E161:9200:80BA:5D7D:BDC5:5EAA (talk) 12:26, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Colour of mixed race South Asians and Native Americans

Is it possible that most mixed race South Asians (e.g. Indians & Pakistanis) and Native Americans can either be white or have the same skin and hair colour as all Asians and Natives? 86.130.217.84 (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You asked in your previous question how skin color was inherited, and I answered. The answer is the same. SamuelRiv (talk) 21:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The mixed-race South Asian and Native American actors and characters I've noticed were... In the film East Is East, the Khan children with a Pakistani father and white English mother, who had the same colours as their father's. Jimi Mistry, born of an Irish mother. Emil Marwa with an Indian Kenyan father and mother of Norwegian descent. Zita Sattar with a British mother and Pakistani father. In the Bonanza episode The Underdog, Harry Starr (Charles Bronson), born of a Comanche father and white mother and in The Burning Sky, Aaron Gore (Victor French) who had a Sioux mother. In Chato's Land, Chato (Charles Bronson), who is half-Apache. In Big Jake, O'Brien (Glenn Corbett), a half-breed Apache born of a Chiricahua mother and Irish father. In the Little House on the Prairie episode Injun Kid, Spotted-Eagle/Joseph Stokes, born of a Sioux father and white mother. And according to a get.tv article, Chuck Norris was born to an Irish mother and a Cherokee father and kids always called him a half-breed. And I think his Walker, Texas Ranger character was part-Cherokee. 86.130.185.199 (talk) 19:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 13

User interactions

Is there some way to find all the times a given user has ever posted on another user's talk page? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that more of a help desk kind of question? --Viennese Waltz 05:20, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could be. I'll try there. Thanks! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "editorinteract" tool may be useful. You input the names of the editors you are interested in and it links to their edits noting the time difference between the edits of the different editors. Alternatively, you can check the revision history of the relevant user talk page, which doesn't take long. 2A00:23C5:E161:9200:80BA:5D7D:BDC5:5EAA (talk) 12:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably still easier, use Special:Contributions/Example (substitute user name for "Example") and under Search for contributions, select Namespace: User talk and press Search . Ignore edits of User talk:Example. --Lambiam 13:58, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all, for your help. I'm specifically trying to find where SamuelRiv and I have ever interacted, since he claims we have, but I don't remember it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The two of you have contributed to the same discussions, e.g. recently at WP:RD/H#One of my favorite goals, WP:RD/M#Dark-skinned mixed black-white people and WP:RD/S#Cat. But there are also several older instances at the Ref Desk talk page, such as Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 72#Attacking the OP, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 72#Delete banned user question, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 73#Troll or dwarf at work, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 73#Purpose creep, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 73#Fixing grammar, general bitterness, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 81#EDITABLE responses, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 88#Deleted question about American English. And then there was this, which you promptly reverted and then apparently forgot all about. --Lambiam 18:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for digging up that old stuff from 12-14 years ago, however you got it. Most of it happened to be in the same section, though not much direct interaction, so the user name did not stick with me. Likewise for the stuff from the last few days, until he started coming after me for reasons that remain unclear. As for the 2022 item, I don't recall it, but probably the vague nature of it (similar to his recent comments) led me to figure it was not worth spending my time on. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also thinking maybe this belongs on the ref desk talk page instead of here, but that's up to you all. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:17, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

September 14