Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/John Donne

John Donne

This is an article that I've been working on recently, with the goal of achieving a GA aticle, or maybe even an FA. I admit that there is a lot of work that needs to be done. More information and more citations are obviously necessary. I'd like some feedback on how to proceed with developing the article (id est, how to structure the sections, whether some of the images are really appropriate, what to do with the trivia section, etc.). Galanskov 19:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, APR _t 02:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Trebor

My general impression of the first section:

• Eventually he would become - be more specific, say at which age or in which year.
• Don't wikilink years on their own; they very rarely add anything.
• who avoided unwelcome government attention - what of it? Seems a bit of an odd thing to say, so needs a bit of expansion.
• leaving the responsibility of raising his son to his wife, Elizabeth Jones. His mother, also from a noted Catholic family, was the - was Jones John Donne Junior's mother? It's not explicit. "His" could also refer to either the father or the son. Rephrase it to make it clearer.
• One of Donne's maternal great-grandmothers was a sister of Thomas More, the Catholic martyr and author of Utopia, whom Henry VIII had beheaded for his refusal to accept Henry as the leader of his faith - a bit of an obscure link, which may be best removed. The background information on More is particularly out-of-place.
• Actually, the whole section on his family could do with tying more clearly to Donne. At the moment, it seems like background info is a bit of an aside.
• he was accepted as a member of Thavies Inn -as Thavies Inn is redlinked, it'd be useful to know a little more about what it is, and what being a member means.
• in the legal area of London - again, some expansion on what this means would be preferable.
• we know that he fought - using "we" shouold be avoided; see here.

The prose could do with some work, and the references decrease later on in the article which may be a problem. The images look good, but the caption for Pyford could be better - I don't like the way it's instructing the reader to note something. The structure is quite tricky as it'd be fairly hard to separate personal and profession life (as is often done). The trivia section is always quite a hard one to deal with; if it's relevant or noteworthy then try to merge somewhere else in the article, or else just remove (I'll leave the judging to you). It's coming along nicely so far; good work. Trebor 21:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yannismarou

Nicely done, but in some sections under-cited and IMO with a POV tone throughout the article. This is my review:

• "Donne came from a Roman Catholic family, and so would experience persecution until his conversion to the Anglican Church. Despite his great education and poetic talents, he would live in poverty for several years, relying heavily on wealthy friends. Eventually he would become an Anglican priest and Dean of St Paul's. His literary works would reflect these trends, with love poetry and satires from his youth, and religious sermons during his later years." The over-use of "would" have been criticized in the past in FAC.
• "Despite the obvious dangers, Donne’s mother ensured he was educated by the Jesuits,[1] from whom he acquired a profound understanding of his faith that equipped him for the ideological religious conflicts of his time." Why do you put the citation here in the middle of the sentence? The rest of it is unsourced?
• The third paragraph of "Early life" is undercited. it needs at least one more citation.
• "By the age of 25 he was well prepared for the glittering diplomatic career". "Glittering" could be regarded as POV I am afraid.
• "Career and Later Life" has no citations.
• "he remains one of the most vibrant, exciting and intellectually challenging of all English poets." Uncited and possibly POV.
• "In a life largely devoted to state affairs, religion, and other matters considered more respectable in the culture of the day, he seems to have regarded writing as a tawdry habit he could never quite shake off, but his wide ranging output includes sonnets, love poetry, religious poems, Latin translations, epigrams, elegies, songs, satirical verses and sermons". Who says all these things? Any sources?
• Get rid of "Trivia". Incorporate its material, if it is useful, in the main article.
• "Critical Works" are no part of the references. They are "Further reading" or a separate "Critical Works" section.--Yannismarou 19:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Awadewit

I think that this article has a lot of promise but some sentences are awkwardly worded (a copyedit would fix that) and it needs more scholarly citations. Overall, though, I think that the article needs a few sentences here and there to explain its ideas more fully, particularly to a reader unfamiliar with seventeenth century poetry.

• Perhaps you could mention one or two of Donne's most famous works in the opening? The poems that one must have in a survey of a seventeenth-century poetry? What is the essence of Donne? (By the way, I disagree that you need a source for the list of genres that Donne wrote in. That is silly. That is not the kind of statement that requires a source. No historian or literary scholar would ask anyone for a source on such a statement.)
• In the second paragraph: Was he poor because he was Catholic? Perhaps you could make that connection, if it exists, more explicit.
• Why born sometime between January 23 and June 19? Why not born early in 1572? If those dates are significant, why not explain them?
• Perhaps simply "Welsh father"?
• As one of the other reviewers stated, the details on Donne's family are a little confusing. But I think that they are important. Clearly religion was an essential element of Donne's life. Perhaps that section could be reworded? Think of it like a story and less like a relation of a series of facts, perhaps.
• Briefly explain Oath of Supremacy - at least mention that it is connected to his being Catholic.
• Condense legal education sentences.
• Explain "coterie poetry." Alas, it is not a commonly known term.
• You mention the "17th Holy Sonnet" - explain it more or delete it. If it is important enough to mention, it is important enough to give a few sentences to.
• Again, please explain why the "Death's Duel" sermon is infamous. Have some fun!
• One cannot die "on Lent," only "during Lent." The church season lasts meany, many days.
• Perhaps you should give even more detailed examples of the metaphysical conceit? It is a difficult concept to understand.
• Could you list the works published in his lifetime with their original dates and then the standard Donne edition used by scholars in the Poetry and Prose sections? I found the dates jarring.
• The footnotes look oddly referenced to me. I was confused by all of the letters. I'm also confused why you don't reference the biographies you've listed instead of the encyclopedia articles. In general, biographies are more complete and reliable than encyclopedias.
• I would suggest removing "Sparknotes" from the external links as well. It is not a reliable source for literary criticism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Awadewit (talk • contribs) 19:12, February 5, 2007(UTC) (UTC)

User:BirgitteSB

• I find the tone to be sometimes inappropriate and not upheld by the references. Tone should less dramtic. If the source reads Donne's first teachers were Jesuits. At the age of 11, Donne and his younger brother Henry were entered at Hart Hall, University of Oxford, where Donne studied for three years; don't talk of his mother ensuring hs education by Jesuits or his profound understanding.
  • Despite the obvious dangers, Donne’s mother ensured he was educated by the Jesuits, from whom he acquired a profound understanding of his faith that equipped him for the ideological religious conflicts of his time.
  • Donne was forced to accept a retired country life in Pyrford, Surrey
  • It is not known how Donne grew to abandon the faith he had been educated to defend
• There is sometimes an inappropriate context as if you are stuck writing about what happened from within his lifetime instead of a general enyclopedia article.
  • These poems were never published although they circulated widely in manuscript form Never?
  • he would become vicar of St. Dunstan's-in-the-West would become?
• The text is needs overall tightening; it is repeats events in different sections and is sometimes even contradictory. It would probably benefit from a complete overhaul in organization where his life and works are dealt with at the same time in chronologically based sections.
  • including the infamous Death’s Duel sermon delivered at the Palace of Whitehall before King Charles I in February 1631
  • Even as he lay dying on Lent in 1631, he rose from his sickbed and delivered what was later described as his own funeral sermon. In case you do not know: Death’s Duel sermon = what was later described as his own funeral sermon'
  • It is not known how Donne grew to abandon the faith he had been educated to defend, but he certainly was in communication with the King, James I of England, and in 1610 and 1611 he wrote two anti-Catholic polemics, Pseudo-Martyr and Ignatius his Conclave.[3] Although James was pleased with Donne's work, he refused to reinstate him at court and instead urged him to take holy orders.[2] After a long period of financial uncertainty and difficulty, spent seeking profitable employment, during which he was twice a member of Parliament (1601 and 1614), Donne finally acceded to the King's wishes and was ordained into the Church of England in 1615.[5]
  • Earlier he had valued a skeptical approach to religion, but this now gave way to a firm faith in the traditional teachings of the Bible. Having converted to the Anglican Church, Donne pursued a position as a preacher.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by BirgitteSB (talk • contribs) 01:22, February 11, 2007(UTC) (UTC)