Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/West precedent

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Further information: Wikipedia:Notability
Further information: Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Notability

This essay contains the WikiProject College football project response to the "West Precedence" argument (or sometimes called the West Incident) and outlines reasons to overturn any and all articles deleted based on the deletion of the article Walter J. West. It includes a historical view of deletion discussions, results, and shows the new trend of overturning articles deleted by the so-called "West Precedence" argument.

General importance[edit]

Although this topic is in place in the college football project, it can have impact outside of this project. As Chick Bowen put it:

"As a longtime DRV closer, I've observed, and have indicated in my closing statements a number of times, that AfD doesn't—and can't—work by precedent. Consensus about a particular category of articles can certainly develop over time—so any debate can have a bearing on others as part of a larger discussion—but (unlike in a court of law) the order of nominations shouldn't matter; previous debates indicate but never define consensus, and it is inevitable that as consensus emerges over time AfDs on fairly similar articles will be decided differently..."

Scoreboard[edit]

nominated for deletion deleted restored % restored
79
62
62
100%

Duplicate deletions (such as the A.C. Ransom articles) are counted as one article. Merged articles that were deleted and then merged to another existing article on the same coach are counted as restored. Articles restored and then re-deleted (such as Joe Banks) are removed from "restored" category" regardless of reason. Articles restored as redirect and information included into lists are also included.

Timeline[edit]

An articles for deletion discussion took place concerning the article Walter J. West (herinafter referred to as West) and the end result was that the article was deleted. The deletion of this article led to a string of nominations of similar articles referencing the deletion West, some going so far as to refer to what was called the West Precedent. A total of at least 24 discussions took place directly from the West precedent with several more indirectly from the same group of nominations. These discussions resulted in the deletion of at least 62 articles.

The following AFD discussions referenced by link the West discussion:

AFD Discussion Articles affected Opened Closed Result
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter J. West Walter J. West 14:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC) 13:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC) Deleted then subsequently Restored by deleting admin on 16:02, October 17, 2008
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter J. West (2nd nomination) Walter J. West 18:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC) 23:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Speedy close: "The first AfD nomination is still open"
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A.C. Ransom A.C. Ransom 16:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC) 02:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC) Delete (same person as Alured Ransom below)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alured Ransom Alured Ransom 11:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 01:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Delete (same person as A.C. Ransom above), then subsequently Restored by the deleting admin on 19:12, October 20, 2008
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S. W. Harrington S. W. Harrington 12:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 01:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Kept
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. William Williams J. William Williams 12:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 16:57, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Delete uses phrase "West Precedent" then subsequently Restored after article improvements and a deletion review.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Holm Max Holm, Joe Banks, Ross Fiscus, Graydon Long, Samuel Boyle, Forrest Craver, Victor Payne 12:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 18:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Delete all except Victor Payne. Uses phrase "West Precedent."
  • Samuel Boyle was subsequently merged (and original article re-directed) to pre-existing article Sam Boyle.
  • Forrest Craver was subsequently restored after checking with deleting admin and having no opposition.
  • Ross Fiscus was subsequently restored by deleting admin
  • Joe Banks was subsequently restored with permission from the deleting admin, then userfied again after another DRV.
  • Max Holm 'restored when new information and resources became available, specifically that he is one of the few college coaches at any level to be head coach of both basketball and football programs during the same calendar year (in the "modern era") and for his credit for significant contributions to the schools nationally-ranked defensive team.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken William McCracken, J.B. Craig, Smith Alford, Archibald Leech (football coach), Arthur McKean, C.B. Metheny, P.H. Bridenbaugh, Jack Sack, Mack Flenniken, Jimmy Robertson (American football), Dwight V. Beede, Edgar P. Weltner, Byron E. Morgan, Donald Lederick, Dan Frasier 18:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 14:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Delete all references "West Precedent" in discussion format
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wally Bullington Wally Bullington 18:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC) 10:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Delete Claims "West Precedent" then article subsequently was Restored after a deletion review discussion.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ward A. Wescott Ward A. Wescott, J.G. Britton, John D. Schwender, Mark D. Nave, Harrison McJohnston, William Davies (football coach), John E. Fries, Roy E. Haberman, C.C. Boone, Madison Bell (football coach), P. Norris Armstrong, Vincent Batha, Elmer A. Lampe, John W. Breen, F.J. (Mickey) McCormick, Steve Miller (football coach), Robert Larsen, Mark W. Williams 00:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC) 00:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC) Delete all except Elmer A. Lampe
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel Harry Huston , Jay Mack Love, Frank Armin, Fred Clapp, Willis Bates , Don Copper, Dick Nolan (football coach), Harry Brock, Fred Dittman, Harold Hunt (football coach), Bill Carroll (football coach), Robert Hower, Bob Dvorak, Ray Morrison (football coach), Wes Buller, Jim Paramore, Phil Hower, Jake Cabell, Chris Douglas (football coach) 15:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC) 08:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Delete all except Harry Huston and Willis Bates. "West Precedent" is given as one of the reasons for the deletion by the closing admin.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larry Dorsey Larry Dorsey 18:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 04:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC) Nomination Withdrawn Nomination refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Clifton Gilliard Clifton Gilliard 18:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greg Johnson (American football) Greg Johnson (American football) 18:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hensley Sapenter Hensley Sapenter 18:27, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronald Beard Ronald Beard 18:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 03:14, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Haney Catchings Haney Catchings 18:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conway Haymen Conway Haymen 18:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James McKinley (football coach) James McKinley (football coach) 18:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:06, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jake High Jake High 19:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC) 00:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Kept nominator refers to West as a reason to delete
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach) Kevin Haslam (football coach) 15:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC) 08:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Delete nominator references West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson Dan Hanson 15:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC) 08:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Delete nominator references West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier Mike Gravier 15:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC) 08:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Delete nominator references West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent and then boldy restored to Mike Gravier after significant coverage and unique information uncovered.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football) Don Lee (college football), Scott Highsmith, Norman Joseph 13:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC) 16:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC) No Consensus Nominator referenced West and several other articles deleted because of the West Precedent. When it was pointed out that Walter J. West was restored, nominator removed the reference from the nomination.

Problems affiliated with West as precedent[edit]

Large number of AfD nominations/discussions citing West[edit]

A large number of AfD nominations and/or discussions took place in a short period of time that cited West either as precedent or at least as a reference for a reason to delete. There is evidence that using this one discussion had clouded the judgement of editors during their discussions and even of administrators who based deletion of articles at least in part on West. For example:

  1. At least 62 articles were deleted citing West as a reference for previous deletion discussions
  2. At least 40 artciles were deleted citing West as precedence for reason to delete
  3. At least 17 articles were deleted citing West as one of the reasons for the deletion by the deleting administrator

That adds up to a total of 119 direct references in AFD discussions using the West incident as a source.

Precedence to Keep was ignored[edit]

At the time of the West discussions, the recent AfD trend was toward keeping similar articles. A good amount of similar articles had gone through AfD discussions and were closed as keep or no consensus by the closing admin. These discussions were largely ignored by the editors at the time, and any attempt to bring them up resulted in a simple "consensus can change" statement.

The following articles and AfD discussions should have been considered but were not:

  1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oscar Dahlene Keep
  2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fay G. Moulton Nomination Withdrawn
  3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gottsch Keep
  4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James A. Stevens Keep
  5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sam B. Taylor Keep
  6. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hoover J. Wright Keep
  7. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prairie View coaches No Consensus
    1. Larry Dorsey
    2. Clifton Gilliard
    3. Greg Johnson
    4. Hensley Sapenter
    5. Ronald Beard
    6. Haney Catchings
    7. Conway Haymen
    8. James McKinley
    9. Cornelius Cooper
    10. Theophilus Danzy
    11. Alexander Durley
    12. Fred T. Long
    13. L.T. Walker
    14. Arthur J. Willis
    15. Jim F. Law
    16. H.B. Hucles
    17. C.L. Whittington

Increased number of AfD nominations after West was initially deleted[edit]

After West article was deleted, a large number of bulk nominations began using West as the primary driver. Some had been previously nominated for deletion but were not deleted. This was discussed at AfD Talk Page and at Kittybrewster's Talk Page.

Domino Effect[edit]

After West was deleted, a domino effect took place. After nominators began using West as a precedent, additional deletions based on West were also referenced in AfD discussions as a form of "consensus" or "precedent":

  1. The following AfD discussions reference Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Holm:
    1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A.C. Ransom
    2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alured Ransom
    3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S. W. Harrington
    4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. William Williams
    5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken
    6. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wally Bullington
    7. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel
    8. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach)
    9. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson
    10. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier
    11. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football)
  2. The following AfD discussions reference Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken:
    1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel
    2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach)
    3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson
    4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier
    5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football)
  3. The following AfD discussions reference Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ward A. Wescott:
    1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach)
    2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson
    3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier
    4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football)
  4. The following AfD discussions reference Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel:
    1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken
    2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach)
    3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson
    4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier
    5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football)
  5. The following AfD discussions reference Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach):
    1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dan Hanson
    2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Gravier
    3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Don Lee (college football)

Volume of AfD discussions[edit]

Initial requests for more time to work on the articles or to reduce the number of nominations were met with harsh responses from several editors. Eventual intervention based on the volume of AfDs led to the downturn of the nominations for deletion led to the nominations being reduced to a more manageable number at any given time. Once this happened, articles questioned began to be improved through collaboration with additional sources cited and many more were kept.

Immediate impact of restoration of West[edit]

Restoration of the West article has contributed to a marked reduction in the number of deletions which can be observed in the table above. It seems that no head coach article has been nominated for deletion for over two weeks (as of 30 Oct 2008). In addition, articles once deleted under the West precedent have been improved in user workspace and are beginning to be restored by the deleting administrator.

Result of non-West related discussions[edit]

Similar articles that do not reference West have a much lower result in deletions.

  1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/B. Russell Murphy No Consensus
  2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/P. W. Griffith Keep
  3. Lance Hinson (football coach) Prod Removed
  4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joseph Pipal Keep
  5. Simon F. Pauxtis Initially deleted via prod then Restored
  6. Scott Frear (football coach) Prod Removed
  7. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fay G. Moulton (2nd nomination) Keep

Additional article improvements[edit]

Besides West other articles have been improved during this time as a result of research completed on the West articles. Those articles that were improved and subsequently kept include:

  1. S. W. Harrington
  2. Victor Payne
  3. Elmer A. Lampe
  4. Harry Huston
  5. Willis Bates
  6. Larry Dorsey
  7. Clifton Gilliard
  8. Greg Johnson (American football)
  9. Hensley Sapenter
  10. Ronald Beard
  11. Haney Catchings
  12. Conway Haymen
  13. James McKinley (football coach)
  14. Jake High
  15. Don Lee (college football)
  16. Scott Highsmith
  17. Norman Joseph

Other improvements are ongoing in user workspace and can be found at User:Paulmcdonald/deletedcoach.

Recommendation[edit]

Restore any article that was deleted based on influence from the West discussion because it is evident that deletion discussions were highly influenced by the original root discussion. These articles include (but may not limited to) the 62 articles listed in the table above.

Additional benefits of restoration[edit]

Promotes collaboration[edit]

Articles that begin as a stub can, through collaboration, be dramatically improved. As a small sample, here is a list of many articles that began much like those that were deleted and were enhanced through efforts of collaboration and grew to robust articles: Harold Elliott, Bob Spoo, Oscar Dahlene, Mike Gardner (football coach), Ralph Graham, Homer Woodson Hargiss, George Allen (Cumberland), Art Kahler, Jerry Kill, Eddie Kriwiel, Craig Schurig (football coach), Ed Sweeney (football coach), Samuel Colgate, Jr., Gwinn Henry, Wayne J. McConnell, Bill Schnebel, Arthur Schabinger, Chris Creighton, Glenn Thistlethwaite, Dave Clawson, Douglas Legate Howard, Josh Hartwell, Chick Meehan, Bob Seaman, Ralph Graham, and Bill Stewart (football coach). The Wikipedia College football project has put extensive effort toward this goal.

Of course, articles being prepared in a user space can be edited by anyone--but by placing the articles in the "open" we can add proper categories and tags (not only for the college football project, but other projects such as projects for History, Biography, United States or sub-state projects, and any other project that may apply).

Potentially enhances existing articles[edit]

Some articles already existed, but have become more robust due to the college football project efforts. Some of these articles include:

Preemptive responses[edit]

The following pre-emptive arguments are made to assist with consideration of this proposal.

The arguments behind West still stand[edit]

It is true that many of the arguments made during West were done in good faith. However, the influence of those arguments on other articles has been weighted toward delete. This is most evident when viewing the trend of deletions and how, once West was restored (and even when word of West being reconsidered) resulted in fewer successful deletions of articles. Editors supporting deletion based on West would tend to just say "because of West" instead of articulating the argument specifically for the article in question.

Further, the influence of West as precedent may have influenced editors who would have joined discussions but chose not to when they read that a precedent already existed.

Finally, the influence of West as precedent definitely influenced at least one closing admin, as shown in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel, a discussion that resulted in the deletion of 17 articles.

If the arguments behind West truly do still stand, then they could withstand unprejudiced exposure in a new forum.

There were other reasons for deletion of the articles[edit]

Yes, there were other reasons both for and against deletion outside of West. However, there was a marked trend toward deletion after West was deleted that was not present before. Full, proper consideration must be given without improper influence.

Restorations not linked to original topic[edit]

The main argument being made here is that all of the articles restored were restored because they found a pro football career or something notable outside of the original scope of the article, which was college football coaching.

This, however, is a false statement. Certainly some of the articles were restored when a professional career was found, and others were restored when other outside notability surfaced. However, others such as J. William Williams, Forrest Craver, William McCracken, and Wally Bullington were restored because of thier contribution to college football--it was merely the addition of more sources and details to the page on the same topic.

The timeline table above has a brief review of why and how each article was restored, along with pertinent links.

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