Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/38th Infantry Division Dravska

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Sturmvogel 66 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 15:20, 4 November 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

38th Infantry Division Dravska[edit]

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

38th Infantry Division Dravska (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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The latest in my series on the Yugoslav order of battle for the invasion of that country in April 1941, this is forms part of an expansion of an existing Good topic that will hopefully end up as a Featured topic one day. Undermined by fifth column activities and faced with thrusts by two German corps, the division fell back in disarray and surrendered with the rest of the 7th Army. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • In the Operations map, it is not clear to which of the dots the labels apply. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:37, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No licensing issues, but can't say that the map seems improved. For example, which of the dots is Dravograd? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:04, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Indy beetle[edit]

  • Due to a lack of Yugoslav counter-attacks, many of these positions remained in German hands into 6 April. "Remained" implies the Yugoslavs attacked them at some point and potentially retook them, which I'm not seeing. Did you mean that the Germans had secured them by 6 April?
  • I don't think that necessarily follows. The Germans captured the Yugoslav positions, and because the Yugoslavs didn't counterattack, the Germans continued to hold them into 6 April.
  • On pages 39–40 of The South Slav Journal Volume 4 ([1]) there's a large excerpt from General Čedomir Stanojlović's memoirs on the campaign. He pays special attention to the division's Croat chief of staff, Major Ivan Babić, whom he suggests hardly had his heart in the fight. I've managed to extract the whole excerpt from Google snippet view. As its rather long, I think there would be copyvio problems if I posted it here. Would you like me to email it to you?

-Indy beetle (talk) 21:25, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've sent you an email. I'll have a look at it, but it is a common trope for Serb senior officers to blame the Croats for the collapse of the army, and they are memoirs, so WP:PRIMARY applies. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've sent the text. I can sympathise with your concerns about POV, but at the very least it seems important to mention that Babić was division chief of staff. -Indy beetle (talk) 11:53, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. Will do. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:10, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've added the source and mentioned that Babić was the divisional COS, but I am loath to add anything else for the POV reasons I outlined above. The South Slav Journal of that era at least was a Yugoslav emigre "resistance" periodical, and had a significant bias. I think it is ok for basic facts like that of Babić being the COS, but not much else. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:16, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My comments have been addressed and the article is very comprehensive, so I'm supporting its promotion to A-class. -Indy beetle (talk) 22:48, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review, Indy beetle! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:51, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed

  • Wartime organisation: "The wartime organisation of the VJK was laid down by regulations issued in 1936–1937, and the strength of an infantry division was 26,000–27,000 men." : There doesn't appear to be an obvious relationship between the two parts of this sentence, unless the regs laid down what the divisional strength should be.
  • good point. Reworded.
  • Mobilisation: "...invasion commenced, the 38th ID had only commenced mobilisation, and was largely in its mobilisation..." consider rephrasing to avoid repetition of commenced and mobilisation?
  • varied wording
  • 5-6 April: On the evening of 5 April, one of the aggressive..." no antecedence for "the aggressive"? Perhaps "a particularly aggressive..."?

Struggling to find much else to fault here. Zawed (talk) 11:21, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Zawed! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:51, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Gog the Mild[edit]

This is very good, to the extent that I couldn't find much to comment on that wasn't on the picky side. So, some picky points to consider:

  • "the division also lacked modern arms and sufficient ammunition." This tends to beg the question, sufficient for what? (What front line unit ever feels that it has sufficient ammunition?)
  • added "to meet the German onslaught"
  • "Each infantry regiment was to consist of three to four infantry battalions, a machine gun company" Should that be 'Each infantry regiment was to consist of three to four infantry battalions and a machine gun company'? Possibly with a full stop after "Company"?
  • Done.
  • It may just be me, but I find the use of "as" in "The 38th ID was a component of the 7th Army as part of the 1st Army Group" confusing. Perhaps 'The 38th ID was a component of the 7th Army, a part of the 1st Army Group,'?
  • Done.
  • "some 30–55 kilometres (19–34 mi) further south." "further south" than what?
  • the Drava, clarified
  • "On the left flank of the division was Mountain Detachment Triglavski (MD Triglavski), and on its right flank was Detachment Ormozki of the 4th Army... Border guard units in the divisional sector would consist of..." Why the change to the conditional?
  • Fixed.
  • "the 538th Frontier Guard Division, who were guarding the German border.". 'which was'?
  • Fixed.
  • "One German column pushed towards Maribor from Mureck, and the other pushed on". 'an other', or 'a second'? Or do the two columns relate to the two corps previously mentioned?
  • LI Infantry Corps - clarified.
  • "in the sector of the right flanking Detachment Ormozki without striking any resistance" "striking" seems an odd choice of word: 'hitting', 'meeting', 'encountering?
  • Fixed.
  • "XXXXIX Mountain Corps captured border crossings on the approaches to Dravograd, but were held up". '...was held up'?
  • Fixed.
  • "On that day, Marko Natlačen—the governor of the Drava Banovina" It may help a reader if this were changed to 'On that day, Marko Natlačen—the governor of Drava Banovina province'.
added parens
  • "Jezerski vrh". This seems to usually be spelt with an upper case V. Which may of course not have been the case in 1941. There is a lower case Jezerski vrh in Albania.
  • Yes, hard to nail this down. Have gone with the current Google Maps capitalisation, but the original Serbo-Croat (Terzic) uses the lower case.
  • "Morale in the 7th Army had started to decline due to fifth column elements encouraging soldiers to stop resisting the enemy." I am not sure about the inclusion of "had".
  • Fixed.
  • "In the early hours of 7 April, three Blenheims of the Yugoslav 8th Bomber Regiment" Perhaps link Blenheims? (I don't think that it is already linked.)
  • Yes, already linked under 6 April.
  • "the rest of the 8th Bomber Regiment was awaiting orders to bomb a rebelling Yugoslav regiment of the neighbouring 4th Army in Bjelovar – these orders were subsequently cancelled." I am a little confused as to how awaited orders, which one assumes have not arrived, can be cancelled.
  • Basically the way it generally works in most armed forces is you get a warning order with anticipated tasks, then an operations order with the detailed tasks, and they then issue fragmentary orders to amend the operations order as required.
  • "By the time it entered Zagreb, the 14th Panzer Division was met by cheering crowds" Not sure about "By the time"> What is wrong with 'when'?
  • Done.
  • "This force, split into a dozen units and totalling 2,000–3,000 men, then began to assist the Germans in disarming units of the 7th Army, but did not engage in combat with Yugoslav troops." Is part of this a repeat of "Fifth columnists delayed but did not engage in combat with Yugoslav troops." or is it two separate not engaging in combats?
  • The latter is general regarding the whole area of the 7th Army on 6 April (so both Slovene and Croat), the former is specific to the Slovenian Legion from 1 April.
  • "Proxies for the NszS approached Generalmajor Hubert Lanz, the commander of the 1st Mountain Division, when his formation approached Celje" Is it possible to lose one of the "approached"s?
  • Fixed.
  • Final sentence: any information on the overall percentage of PoWs held for the duration?
  • No unfortunately. Someone may have done the research in Serbo-Croat, but none of the sources I've seen provide that info.

As I said, mostly trivia, and most of them you should feel free to ignore if you wish. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments and review, Gog the Mild. These are my edits. Appreciate the tightening up of the prose in particular. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:59, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This meets all of the criteria, flows well and is easy to follow and is a fine piece of work. Support. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:51, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

  • Most sources seem reliable and appropriate for the topic. One comment:
  • If "Excerpt from Čedomir Stanojlović's memoirs" is from the memoirs of the division commander, shouldn't the harv ref be to Stanojlović and not to the journal? Kges1901 (talk) 20:04, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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