Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

One of the better-known battles of World War II. Recently shepherded through GA, so here it is at ACR. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This important article is looking very good - great work. I have the following comments and suggestions:

  • The first section on the Pacific War seems a bit under-developed. I'd suggest that this set out how bad the war situation was for Japan, as well as the increasing ferocity of the fighting (which I think is what you were getting at with the very interesting material on the US casualties)
    • checkY Added a paragraph on the Japanese war economy. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:22, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The policy of bypassing Japanese forces was abandoned" - this is probably too broad, and isn't fully supported by the source (which is mainly an appreciation from Australian General Blamey - in which he recommends continuing to contain Rabaul). It also states that the goal of destroying all the Japanese forces in the Philippines was to enable the islands to be used to mount the invasion of Japan, and not to free up troops per-se (as I understand it, the goals were actually essentially political as MacArthur and other US policymakers felt a need to complete the liberation of the islands, even when this wasn't militarily necessary. The Borneo campaign seems to have been mainly conceived as a way of keeping the Commonwealth forces in the Pacific busy in the short run, and to provide resources in case the war dragged on for several more years).
    • checkY Removed this. I don't think that bypassing ever rose to the status of a policy. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      However, since the plans for the invasion of Japan called for the use of all the US troops then in the Philippines, the remaining Japanese had to be reduced to the point where the Filipino forces could contain them. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Presenting the idea of low-altitude firebombing raids as LeMay's isn't entirely accurate: Hap Arnold and his staff had been pushing Hansell do conduct firebombing operations, which he trialled before being sacked. LeMay seems to have emphasised his role to protect Arnold from criticism for this tactic. The overall story seems to have been that there was a gradual realisation in Washington that "precision" bombing wasn't working in Japan, and area bombing was necessary.
    • checkY Yes, that's right. It seems that LeMay required more than a little prompting. It's easier in some ways to see why Hansell clung to precision bombing than why Norstad was so willing to embrace it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be worth noting that the firebombing campaign against Japan became increasingly brutal over time. After most of the major cities were destroyed the bombers were sent after the small cities - including what in some cases were actually large towns - and this continued until the end of the war.
  • The Japanese air forces reversed their policy on not intercepting raids in late June, but this had little effect due to the poor condition of the fighter force.
    • Do you have a source for this? It's not mentioned in Craven and Cate. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, Coox 1994 (which is probably the best single resource on Japanese air defences in 1944-45, not that that's saying much). I've just added this to the article. Nick-D (talk) 10:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be worth noting in the Atomic bomb development section that Japan also had a small atomic bomb program, even though this was no-where near ready to produce weapons by the end of the war.
  • The coverage of the 509th Composite Group's organisation in the "Organization and training" section is probably a bit too detailed given that there's a very good article on the unit.
    • checkY Cut it back. Let me know if it has been cut back too far. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Marshall asked Groves to nominate specific targets for bombing, subject to approval by himself and Stimson" - was this in April 45?
  • In regards to the leaflets, it might be worth noting that LeMay had adopted a tactic of "warning" cities of being attacked, and then following up on some of these warnings with major raids a few days later: the threats in the leaflets were intended to be seen as very real.
    • checkY Done. For some reason the leaflets blew up into a huge issue. I think it is pretty well covered now. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can more be said about the relief efforts after the Hiroshima bombing? These were significant (and I think that the nearby major naval base at Kure quickly got involved)
    • Added some material from Coox (1994) Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly, can anything be said about the events on the ground after the Nagasaki bombing? The article currently doesn't provide details on the relief efforts there.
    • Have you been able to find references on the above topics? Nick-D (talk) 10:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ping regarding the above comment. Nick-D (talk) 01:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, I didn't find anything on relief efforts in Nagasaki. If you have a recommended reference, I'll use it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Robert Bacher was packaging it in Los Alamos when he received word from Groves that the shipment was suspended." - on what date was this decision made?
    • Well the order went out on 14 August, but Groves sent out a warning order beforehand. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Hibakusha" section should note the discrimination faced by these people in postwar Japan and their role in society (when I visited Hiroshima in 2008 they were still giving lectures to tourists and schoolchildren about the need for disarmament).
    • Yeah... it is a bit more complicated. On the one hand the Hibakusha still face discrimination. On the other, there is also some resentment in Japan of their use of their position as a political pulpit and for claiming special privileges. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      • G'day Nick, are you done here? Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 22:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Peacemaker67: Yes, I am now. I'll try to find something on the aftermath of the Nagasaki bombing, but I do agree that for whatever reason it's received much less coverage than the Hiroshima bombing. Nick-D (talk) 22:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Support My comments are now addressed (I meant to include this as part of the above post, but for some dumb reason didn't: sorry about the delay this caused). Nick-D (talk) 21:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments:

  • at five paragraphs, I think the lead might be too long. Per WP:LEAD, four appears to be the maximum recommended;
  • there are a couple of "when?" tags in the article in the Depiction section that probably need to be addressed or removed;
  • spelling (I presume US English is intended) "aluminium" or "aluminum"?
  • spelling "hypocentre" or "hypocenter"?
  • "Americans estimated that..." --> "The Americans estimated that..."?
  • spelling "recognised" --> "recognized"?
  • "Perhaps one in seven of the Hiroshima victims was of Korean ancestry" --> "Perhaps one in seven of the Hiroshima victims were of Korean ancestry"? AustralianRupert (talk) 13:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • checkY All done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:58, 14 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I made a few extra changes, please check that you are happy with those. [1] I've added my support above as you've addressed all my comments, although I have to say I am a bit out of my depth with this one, so my review probably isn't as comprehensive as it should be. Sorry. Anyway, good luck with taking this further. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 13:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport
    • I reviewed at GA but a lot of work has since occurred so will go through it again.
    • No dab links [2] (no action req'd).
    • External links check reveals a few dead links [3]:
      • Peace ceremony represents Hiroshima's long struggle: Fukushima town mayor (info) [mainichi.jp]
      • CRISIS: Hiroshima and Nagasaki cast long shadows over radiation science (info) [eenews.net]
        • Wayback machine doesn't have this one archived. Although I think there would probably be a mirror of it somewhere so if you could add that it would probably resolve this issue. Anotherclown (talk) 08:39, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some of the images lack Alt Text so you might consider adding it [4] (suggestion only - not an ACR req).
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals no issues with reference consolidation (no action req'd).
    • Images all appear to be free / PD and information looks ok. Captions look fine (no action req'd).
    • The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing [5] (no action req'd).
    • A couple of duplicate links per WP:REPEATLINK:
      • North Field airbase
      • Aioi Bridge
      • hibakusha
      • Harry S. Truman
    • "Out of some 70,000–80,000 people killed, 20,000 were soldiers." This is a little repetitive as you have already said 70-80,000 people were killed earlier in the para. Consider instead something like: "Out of those killed, 20,000 were soldiers." (suggestion only).
    • "Barely 900 yards from the explosion's hypocenter..." probably should use the conversion template here for the measurement.
    • "The total of 90,000 ft (27,000 m) of film shot by Lieutenant Daniel McGovern's..." should just be "McGovern's" removing rank and first name following formal introduction at first use.
    • "In the spring of 1948, the Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission (ABCC) was established in accordance with a presidential directive from President Harry S. Truman..." Should just be "Truman" as above.
    • Otherwise looks very good to me. Anotherclown (talk) 11:11, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Another couple of points:
        • Footnote 199 is a bare URL can the full bibliographic details be added?
        • Footnote 200 (dead link as above) needs bibliographic details also. Anotherclown (talk) 08:39, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • "Along the way, the ratio of Japanese to American casualties dropped from 5 to 1 in the Philippines to 2 to 1 on Okinawa." Should the figures here be written (i.e "five to one" etc). Per WP:ORDINAL? Anotherclown (talk) 08:45, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • All my points have been addressed so have added my support now. Anotherclown (talk) 03:13, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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