Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Parsecboy (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 23:40, 12 December 2017 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial

Nominator(s): HJ Mitchell (talk)

Featured article candidates/Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial/archive1

Something a little more conventional after my slight departure with Edward Horner. This is one of a handful of war memorials Lutyens designed for individual regiments wishing to commemorate their losses in the First World War. As the title suggests, it's for the Lancashire Fusiliers, who suffered terribly at Gallipoli and went on to distinguish themselves in France and Belgium, though perhaps the main historical interest is Lutyens' family connection with the regiment. I initially doubted that this would be able to satisfy the comprehensiveness criteria, but after squeezing everything I can out of the sources, I think it's up to scratch for A-class and hopefully FAC. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:25, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support but a couple of comments:

"the war had a profound affect" should be "effect"
"at the invitation of of Colonel Wike" should be only one "of"

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much, Hawkeye! I've fixed both of those typos. What did you think of the summary of the Lancashire Fusiliers' war service? I'm trying to convey (without delving into OR/synthesis) why they felt the need to commission a relatively grand memorial from a distinguished architect; do you think it manages that? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 07:43, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think its pretty good. The costly attack on W Beach was still remembered many years later. Out of 950 men in the Lancashire Fusiliers, 533 became casualties on 25 April 1915. Btw, "The 1st were transferred to France in March 1916" should be " The 1st was transferred to France in March 1916".

Couple of comments from me too:

Suggest avoiding repeat use of 'readily available' in last sentence of first paragraph of the background section.
- Indeed.
Would suggest use of more images. The image in the article (and those on Commons) are not super-large, but large enough to crop in and focus on some of the decorative elements. There is a nifty little cropping tool that can be used on Commons. I can do some cropping to get some images, unless you have plans to visit this one and take some photographs? Some of the other angles have more interesting backgrounds (depends if you want a plain background to emphasise the memorial, or to get an image that shows some of the surrounding location).
- The reason I've only gone with one so far is that all the ones we have on Commons are more or less the same, and I don't want to fill the article up with the same photo but taken from two steps to the left. Don't let me put you off cropping if you want to do some, but I'm planning to visit Bury in a couple of weeks to take photos. Hopefully the weather won't be too appalling and I'll manage to improve on what we have.
Bit off-topic, but the war memorial (from the men of HMS Eryalus) that you mention is in the church in Bury is among those photographed here. Lots of war memorials in that church.
- That's a nice little website. I'm not surprised it's full of war memorials; it was the local church for the regimental depot. I'll try to get some photos of it when I'm in Bury.
Are there any images of the memorial in its location outside Wellington Barracks? And in its later location? There are a number of images around, and given that it is not possible to photograph it at those locations any more, fair use could be applied. There is a nice one I saw from 1922.
- Skelton has one of it in the second location in appendix 1 (Skelton was writing before the latest move), and the Lutyens Trust page cited in the article has one in black and white of the memorial outside the HQ. I would be very surprised if such a photo survived an FfD if uploaded under a claim of fair use though.
There would have been other dignitaries present at the unveiling, surely? If reports exist, include mention of them?
- I would imagine the colonel and the chaplain would have been present, and possibly local politicians like the mayor; it wasn't unusual to see lords lieutenant/deputy lieutenants at these things, but the only ones explicitly mentioned by the sources are the ones in the article.
You mention the motto 'OMNIA AUDAX' but don't say what this means.
- Good point. Leave this with me.
Given that the flags are not unfurled (as they are stone), it might be worth finding suitable images to show what the flags look like, though I can see it may be difficult to find pictures that match exactly the design used on the memorial. The regimental flag appears to include the names of its campaigns (as they were at that time). Might be worth mentioning and expanding on that.
- Regiments display their battle honours on their colours so I wouldn't have thought that was especially remarkable; the colours are laid up in the local church in Bury though. I'll try to get a photo when I'm there.
This memorial would have been rededicated after World War II, when the additional dates were added. Can you find reports on that, or is a date mentioned in your sources? (This bit about a post-WWII rededication should apply to nearly all Lutyens's war memorials.)
- This is a common frustration. I've come up against this repeatedly: there's just nothing in the sources about the WWII additions. In a few cases (like Manchester), there was some significant addition to the WWI memorial like a peace garden, but where there wasn't, it can be next to impossible to find anything about a line being added to the epitaph.
Do you know the date when the "in subsequent campaigns" inscription was added?
- I believe that was added when the memorial was adopted by the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers but I'll have to double check.
Do you know if the flagpoles are wooden or steel (and get replaced) or are they painted brown stone? (I am asking because this was a problem with others of Lutyen's memorials that had stone flags, such as Spalding War Memorial, where the poles were missing at one point.)
- I don't know; I can look when I get to Bury (though that's arguably original research). Historic England's list entries are usually the best sources for design and materials but all this one says is "life-sized regimental flags executed in painted stone"; it doesn't say anything specifically about the poles.
  - Just FYI, as far as I could tell they're painted stone. I got close enough to see the paint but couldn't get high enough to actually touch them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's all my comments for now. Carcharoth (talk) 13:46, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much, Carcharoth. There are a couple of things I need to check on and I'll get back to you by the end of the week. Thanks for the link to that website; looks like the church is well worth a visit in its own right. I very much appreciate you having a look! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Carcharoth: I've now been to Bury and managed to get some more photos (though a freezing, rainy day at the end of November doesn't make for optimal conditions); there's now a broader selection on Commons if you think it needs more or different images. As for "omnia audax", I know it's the regiment's motto and I know it literally means "all one", but I'm struggling to find the significance of the phrase to the Lancashire Fusiliers. Any ideas? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Omnia audax is usually translated as "Daring in all things" (yes, omnia is "all" as in omnibus, but audax is "daring" or "brave" as in "audacious"). It seems the Lancashire Fusiliers were granted the motto after the Second Boer War.[1]

Nice to see more pics. As you say, pity the weather wasn't better, but that can't be helped. Will try and look again later at cropping on the decorative elements if time, unless someone else does that. Carcharoth (talk) 15:08, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Carcharoth: I also have a photo of the drums and bugles that were bought with the remaining war memorial funds (they're on display in the Fusilier Museum, which was a nice surprise), though I'm pretty sure Thryduulf got better photos; I'll try to incorporate one into the article. If you fancy doing some cropping then by all means go ahead. I've added the translation and ordered a copy of that book. Any chance you're ready to support yet? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:36, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Support (sorry, forgot to say that). Carcharoth (talk) 23:02, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Iazyges

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:11, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"The Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial is a First World War memorial originally dedicated to members of the Lancashire Fusiliers killed in that conflict' may wish to change to:
"The Lancashire Fusiliers War Memorial is a First World War memorial, originally dedicated to members of the Lancashire Fusiliers who were killed during that conflict"
I think that adds more words but doesn't actually clarify anything and we should emphasise concision. And they died very much in the war, not somewhere else while it was going on, which "during" could be read to imply.
The memorial was unveiled by Lieutenant General Sir Henry de Beauvoir De Lisle on 25 April 1922, using the novel method of pressing an electric button" what does this mean? The pushing of an electric button revealed this, but how? Basically what action was caused by the pushing of the button that revealed it. A raised drape? Raised the monument from underground?
I assume it opened a curtain or pulled off a drape (I think we can rule out raising from underground ;) ) but the sources don't specify.
"The Lancashire Fusiliers (previously the 20th Regiment of Foot) was swelled by thousands" I may be wrong but I believe swelled should be swollen in this context.
Wiktionary seems to suggest they're interchangeable. On the other hand, it makes no real difference, so Done.
"The general gave a speech in which he referenced the Gallipoli landings and the "six VCs before breakfast"" You may wish to either add a "(VC)" to the earlier full mention of Victoria Cross, or else enumerate that they are one in the same in parentheses after this mention.
- Done.
That is all my comments, happy to support as is. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 16:05, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PM

Great job as usual. Little stood out to me, a couple of minor things:

suggest linking Military colours, standards and guidons when you first mention the King's Colour, and the colour of the 1st Battalion is the Regimental Colour of the 1st Battalion.
The remaining inscriptions
images are all properly licensed.

That's it. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks you very much, PM! I've made both the changes you suggest. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:34, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.