Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/List of ironclad warships of Austria-Hungary

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Article promoted by Zawed (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 21:20, 19 August 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

List of ironclad warships of Austria-Hungary[edit]

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Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk), White Shadows (talk)

List of ironclad warships of Austria-Hungary (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Another day, another list of ships from me (and White Shadows, who recently returned from a long time away) - this one covers all of the ironclads built by Austria-Hungary between the 1860s and 1880s. It's the capstone to this project. Thanks to all who take the time to review the list as we prepare to take it to FLC. Parsecboy (talk) 18:05, 20 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from PM

  • G'day White Shadows, welcome back!
    • Great to be back!
  • in the first table under propulsion "chaft"?
    • Good catch. Fixed the typo.
  • is it worth mentioning STT in the narrative of the Drache class?
    • I can see an argument going in either direction for that. If there's a consensus to add it in there I personally have no objections to doing so.
      • I think I should have couched this (and my later comment about builder) in terms of whether we need to note the shipyard in a list of this type. From what I've seen of FLs, I would suggest not, but if you are going to mention one, you should probably mention all, as it sort of begs the question? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • After further thought, I've decided to include the building for every class in the list.
  • fist ships
    • Good catch!
  • suggest "firepower" rather than "gun power"
    • Changed.
  • who built the Erzherzog Ferdinand Max class and later classes?
    • STT constructed the Erzherzog Ferdinand Max class, Lissa, Custoza, and Erzherzog Albrecht. Kaiser was constructed at the Pola Naval Arsenal but none of my sources give a name for who constructed it. Two of the Kaiser Max class ships were built by STT as well, while the third was constructed at the Pola Naval Arsenal. Tegetthoff and Kronprinzessin Erzherzogin Stephanie were also built by STT, while Kronprinz Erzherzog Rudolf was constructed by the Pola Arsenal.
      • Added the builders for all classes.
  • nominally assignd
    • Another good catch.
  • The Custoza section says Lissa had ten guns, but her table says 12?
    • That is a typo. Lissa had 12 guns.
  • suggest the only ship of that type in the Kaiser section
    • I like this suggestion! I've included it in the list.
  • the gun arrangement of Kaiser in the text adds up to nine guns, but she had ten?
    • I'm not a huge fan of how all that reads anyway, so I've reworked the sentence to not only flow better, but also present correct information.
  • Kaiser Max and Don Juan d'Austria became barracks ships
    • Yet another good catch.
  • when the ships were transferred, Yugoslavia wasn't called that, it was called the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. It only became the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1929.
    • This is an issue from several older articles dealing with the Austro-Hungarian Navy that I've come across. For example, many older articles say that at the end of the war, the Austro-Hungarian Navy was transferred to Yugoslavia, when in reality it was transferred to the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. I've fixed this issue here like I do anywhere I see it.
      • The Royal Yugoslav Navy (and Yugoslavia in general) is a pet topic of mine. By the time the ships were transferred under the treaty, the new Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (KSCS) had been created from the Kingdom of Serbia (and Montenegro) and the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. The latter happened on 1 December 1918. The Austro-Hungarians tried to circumvent the Italians getting a hold of their ships by transferring them to the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs before that date, but the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye (1919) that actually disposed of the ships disregarded this action and dealt with them as it saw fit, only transferring a few ships to the KSCS. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tegetthoff says 11 guns in the text, but six in the table?
    • This is another typo. Text has been corrected.
  • comma after "Genoa, Italy"
    • Is it inappropriate to have the comma in there? I did remove it as a precaution but I thought it was grammatically acceptable to keep it?
      • Put a comma after Italy is what I meant. That way the sentence pauses after Italy and then goes on. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Gotcha. Added in the comma.
  • fn 19 should just be p. rather than pp.
    • Fixed!

That's me done. Great job. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My responses are above. I think I've addressed them all, and if there's some sort of consensus regarding a few of the other points I have no issues including them in the list.--White Shadows New and improved!

G'day White Shadows, just a couple of clarifications above, but this is good to go regardless. Supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through the article again and incorporated your suggestions about builders. Glad to have your support!--White Shadows New and improved!

Support Comments/suggestions: G'day, I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • there are no dab or dup links (no action required)
  • suggest adding alt text to the images;
  • in the lead, suggest breaking up this sentence a little: "Following Tegetthoff's death..." (there are two sets of semi colons, which indicate it is probably a run on sentence)
    • Done
  • in the lead, "...operational role as a guard ship. After World War I...": I feel that a short sentence is needed here to clarify whether any of the ships saw active service during the war either
    • That's a good idea.
  • in the Drach class section, suggest adding a year in the first sentence for a little more clarity, e.g. "Beginning with the launch of the French ironclad Gloire in YEAR, the major..."
    • Good idea
  • minor style point: citation 41 isn't clickable, but all the others are
    • Fixed.
  • in the References, suggest adding a translation for the title of the Dislere work, in the same manner that you have done so for the Pawlik work
    • Done.
  • watch out for US v British English issues, for instance I saw "armoured" (British) but also "armor" (US)
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I will be addressing all of these as soon as I possibly can, perhaps later today.--White Shadows Let’s Talk 14:58, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Already done :P Parsecboy (talk) 15:46, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work, both of you. Thanks for your efforts. Added my support now. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:28, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments from Eddie891 This's my first A-class review, so please, if my suggestions are not really helpful, just ignore them.

  • Drache class
    • The Austrian Navy, under the direction of Marinekommandant (Naval Commandant) Archduke Ferdinand Max, ordered its first two ships in 1860 in response to Italy's order for the two Formidabile-class ironclads; the Austrian vessels, Drache and Salamander, were designed by Josef von Romako, the chief constructor of the Austrian Navy." Perhaps split in two sentences ("The Austrian Navy, under the direction of Marinekommandant (Naval Commandant) Archduke Ferdinand Max, ordered its first two ships in 1860 in response to Italy's order for the two Formidabile-class ironclads. The Austrian vessels, Drache and Salamander, were designed by Josef von Romako, the chief constructor of the Austrian Navy." because its an awfully long sentence, and really they seem a bit forced together
    • Remove "also" in the next sentence.
  • Kaiser Max class (1862)
    • link to Italian unification?
    • "was a direct threat to Austria" perhaps change to "posed a direct threat to Austria"
    • "with only the engines, armor plate," remove only?
      • "Only" here is to highlight the fact that substantial parts of the ships were not reused (contrary to what Poeck declared). Parsecboy (talk) 20:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Erzherzog Ferdinand Max class
    • "with only half that number of guns." again, remove only?
  • Lissa
    • "Lissa was the first of the second generation of Austro-Hungarian ironclads; these ships were built after the experience at the Battle of Lissa. " simplify to "Lissa was the first of the second generation of Austro-Hungarian ironclads; built after the experience at the Battle of Lissa."
      • The point here was to make clear that the tactical experience at Lissa had design implications, not simply a chronological thing. Parsecboy (talk) 20:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The casemate ship, which had recently been developed, solved the problem." simplify to "The recently developed casemate ship solved the problem."
  • Custoza
    • "She proved to be fast and maneuverable in service, but she was built to an obsolescent design; this was less a fault of Romako's than a simple result of the rapid pace of development of naval technology in the period;[31] by the time she entered service, Italy had already laid down the two very large and powerful Caio Duilio-class turret ships, which were armed with four 17.7-inch (450 mm) guns." maybe shorten (or split up) (i.e. "She proved to be fast and maneuverable in service, but as a result of the rapid pace of naval development, her design was obsolete by the time she entered service, as Italy had already laid down the two very large and powerful Caio Duilio-class turret ships, which were armed with four 17.7-inch (450 mm) guns." or "She proved to be fast and maneuverable in service, but she was built to an obsolescent design; this was less a fault of Romako's than a simple result of the rapid pace of development of naval technology in the period. By the time she entered service, Italy had already laid down the two very large and powerful Caio Duilio-class turret ships, which were armed with four 17.7-inch (450 mm) guns."
    • " and was immediately broken up" perhaps change to " and immediately broken up"
  • Erzherzog Albrecht
    • "she became a barracks ships" shouldn't that be "she became a barracks ship"?
  • Kaiser
    • Fine
  • Kaiser Max class (1875)
    • " being as expensive in total as had been spent on Erzherzog Albrecht." perhaps just say " being as expensive as the Erzherzog Albrecht."
      • I think the point here was to make clear that the costs being compared are for the three ships in total vs Erzherzog Albrecht, rather than an individual member of the class
    • "Italy seized all three ships after the war" as it's the first time you mention it in the section, please clarify which war.
      • Added a mention of WWI in the previous sentence. Parsecboy (talk) 20:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tegetthoff
    • "As with earlier vessels, significant components had to be ordered from foreign manufacturers, as Austria-Hungary's industrial capacity was insufficient to fill the orders;" I don't really recall much other mention of this being a big problem. If it was really true with other vessels, please add at least a mention elsewhere
      • See for instance, the section on Erzherzog Albrecht, which references British armor manufacturers, or Lissa, which used Prussian guns. Parsecboy (talk) 20:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "She was nevertheless a political compromise" maybe mention how it was a compromise (I presume with lower budgets)
    • "and in 1893, she was modernized. " perhaps just say "and was modernized in 1893."\
  • Kronprinz Erzherzog Rudolf
    • "In 1881, Pöck finally secured funding for another new ironclad to replace the long-since obsolete Salamander; this new ship was the first Austro-Hungarian ironclad not designed by Romako." split into two sentences
  • Kronprinzessin Erzherzogin Stephanie

Source review by Kges1901

  • Sources mostly seem to be high quality and reliable, the contemporary sources are used appropriately.
  • No missing ISBNs or OCLC numbers. Kges1901 (talk) 09:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kges1901 Excellent list, did a quick grammar check.

  • Kaiser Max class (1862)
    • Italy claimed significant areas of the Austrian Empire as historically Italian, so Italy's naval expansionism posed a direct threat to Austria. somewhat awkward repetition, perhaps use "As Italy claimed...Italian, its naval expansionism..."
      • Done
    • They proved to be a flawed design that were very unstable change 'were' to 'was' since subject is singular
      • "They" is the subject, not the design, so "were" is correct.
        • My error.
  • Lissa
    • In 1880, her hull was found to have rotted badly, and so she was drydocked, stripped of most of her armor plate and re-timbered. Using "and so" reads awkwardly, perhaps use semicolon: "...rotted badly; therefore, she was drydocked..."
      • Done
  • Custoza
    • She proved to be fast and maneuverable in service, but she was built to an obsolescent design; this was less a fault of Romako's than a simple result of the rapid pace of development of naval technology in the period - second 'she' is superfluous
      • Removed
    • Three consecutive uses of 'she' to begin sentences in second paragraph - perhaps vary the phrasing
      • Fixed
  • Kronprinz Erzherzog Rudolf
    • She served as a coastal defense ship during World War I, based in Cattaro Bay, and she was involved second 'she' is superfluous
      • Removed
    • After the war, she was transferred to the Yugoslav Navy and renamed Kumbor, though she served only briefly possibly replace 'though she' with 'but' as another pronoun repetition
      • Works for me
  • Kronprinzessin Erzherzogin Stephanie
    • and she reverted to compound steam engines, though she was a full two knots faster. for concision both pronouns and 'was' could be omitted
      • Reworded
    • The ship was decommissioned in 1905, and in 1910 she was - superfluous 'she'
      • Removed

Kges1901 (talk) 10:36, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

THanks Kges! Parsecboy (talk) 10:47, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for promptly addressing the comments. Kges1901 (talk) 10:55, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • All images are appropriately licensed. Kges1901 (talk) 11:00, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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