Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Maurice Suckling

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 14:20, 12 June 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list

Maurice Suckling

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk)

Maurice Suckling (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Maurice Suckling/archive1

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Maurice Suckling/archive1

I'm renominating this article now that I'm back editing and won't suddenly abandon work and disappear. The man who (maybe?) made Nelson the man he was, but apart from that had quite an uneventful naval career. Has received a slight update with a new source since my last nom. Thanks, Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:36, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Support - I supported at the prior ACR, and a skim through the changes since then reveals nothing that concerns me. Hog Farm _Talk 21:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Support Comments from Hawkeye7 Looks good to me, but some comments to prove that I read it:

• "Suckling did however have the support of considerable patronage from the powerful Walpoles" Who were they? You mentioned his great-uncle but not the other members of the family (although some appear in the final section)
  • I've adjusted to focus more on Walpole himself rather than the wider family
• "he found it long and arduous work" I'm not sure what "long work" is.
  • Replaced with time-consuming
• The final sentence had me wondering about the sword. Apparently it was sold in 2021 [1].
  • It would be a fun subject to have a look into and possibly write an article about, but the main source Swords for Sea Service is rather expensive!

    A lot cheaper than the sword I'll bet. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:23, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: Hi, thanks for taking a look! Responses above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Moved to Support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:12, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Image review - Pass - It is good to see this renominated. Welcome back. An image review was completed at 12:17, 30 January 2023 (UTC) for the previous submission and there seem to be no material changes. There is a nice selection of images and all seem appropriate to the text. All state that they are in the public domain and have relevant PD tags. Pass. simongraham (talk) 11:26, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support by Pendright

Back soon! Pendright (talk) 04:40, 26 May 2023 (UTC) Lead:

• Suckling was employed in the aftermath of the Capture of Belle Île in 1761 destroying French fortifications on the Île-d'Aix, and went on half pay at the end of the war in 1763.

• Replace the first in with "during"

• Done

• Drop the comma after Île-d'Aix, or add [he] went on half pay

• Done former

Early life:

• Nothing is recorded of Suckling's childhood past this point apart from that he continued to live in Beccles.[2]

Do you mean Nothing is "known to have been" recorded?

• Changed to "known", which is the wording the source uses

Early career:

• In Newcastle Suckling saw service in the Western Approaches, the English Channel, and off Gibraltar and Lisbon, advancing to able seaman on 7 April 1741 before being promoted to midshipman on 7 September.

Second clause -> "who" is advnacing and being promoted?

• Reworded

• While sailing off Villefranche on 7 February 1746 he was transferred to the 80-gun ship of the line HMS Russell also as fourth lieutenant.[3][6]

Add a comma after 1746

• Done

• He was then on 1 November translated from Boyne into the 50-gun fourth-rate HMS Gloucester as that ship's first lieutenant, which naval historian David Syrett suggests was another appointment brought about by Suckling's patrons.[3]

Change that to "this" or "the"

• Done latter

• Suckling's position in Gloucester meant that he avoided the unemployment that came to many naval officers when the Royal Navy began to decommission warships in response to the end of the war.[6]

end of "a" war

• Source is specifically referring to this war

• <> Which war is the source referring to? Pendright (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

First commands:

• The ship was at the time serving on the North America Station, and Suckling took passage out in a merchant ship to join his new command.

to "assume" or "take up" his mew command

• Done latter

Seven Years' War:

• Ordered to Jamaica, Dreadnought formed part of an eleven-warship escort [for] to a convoy that [had] left Spithead on 31 January 1756.[10]

Suggest the above changes

• Done former but not latter; imo the addition of "had" suggests that this is just the convoy leaving Spithead and not the whole group of ships

• The ship spent most of her service in harbour at Port Royal as the area was a backwater in the Seven Years' War.

Suggest:

in "the" harbour at

• I think "in harbour" is itself a well-used term

• <>It may be, but gramatically it is not correct Pendright (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Link backwater

• Done

• On 21 October 1757 Dreadnought was undertaking such an operation alongside two other 60-gun ships of the line, expecting to intercept a French convoy leaving Cape Français.

Suggest this or something like it -> On 21 October 1757, Dreadnought and two other 60-gun ships of the line had undertaken an operaton to intercept a French convoy leaving or which had left Cape Français?

• Reworded along these lines

• The three ships formed [a] line of battle with Dreadnought taking the vanguard.[1][10][13]

Add the indefinite artice "a" as indicated

• Done

• The French squadron, having received heavy casualties, retreated back into Cape Français.

Drop the common after squardron

• Done

• Suckling subsequently sailed his ship to Chatham, where she was paid off on 19 November.[10][3]

where she paid off the officers and crew?

• A ship is "paid off", not the crew

<>The link says -> The term "paid off" is alternatively used in British and Commonwealth contexts, originating in the age-of-sail practice of ending an officer's commission and paying crew wages once the ship completed its voyage. Pendright (talk) 19:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The source used for that sentence says "When a ship reaches the end of her commission, she is paid off". I believe my wording to be correct. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:50, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• In June Suckling's ship reinforced the British squadron that had recently captured Belle Île, and [she] was then detached in a squadron under Captain Sir Thomas Stanhope.

Suggest the above change

• Done

• As the Royal Navy began mobilising in the expectation of war he was given command of the 64-gun ship of the line HMS Raisonnable, which was fitting out at Chatham, on 17 November.[1][3][19]

• Add a comma after war

• Done

• War with whom?

• Added

Pausing at the end of the Career section - Pendright (talk) 01:36, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• @Pendright: Hi, not sure if you've got any more comments to add here, but I've responded to all those above. Thanks for taking a look! Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: <>I have left you one response. I'll finish the review in the next day or two. Thank you for your prompt responses. Pendright (talk) 19:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Resuming - Pendright (talk) 22:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Patron of Nelson:

• On 26 June Suckling was also appointed senior officer for his part of the Thames Estuary, and filled most of his time with paperwork regarding topics including naval discipline and the deployment of marine detachments.[19][26]

and "he" filled most of

• Changed

Comptroller of the Navy:

• The Comptroller of the Navy was the head of the Navy Board, responsible for all Royal Navy warship construction and upkeep as well as troop transports and dockyards.

"he" was resoinsible for...

• I believe the current wording is acceptable, I won't fight it if you demand it though!

• <> For the sake of discussion, let's kick this around a bit: It appears (from the previous sentence) that "The comptroller" is referring to Suckking in which case he was would be correct. If the sentence is referring to just "A" Comptroller, then it woudl be who was. I would be iterested in your thoghts.

• By the way, the word demand is a harsh word and I'm without the right to demand anything from you or anyone else on Wikipedia. As it should be! My role as a reviewer, as I see it, is to help make a good article better by suggestions, questons, and discussions that are all made in good fath. Pendright (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

• The position was highly prestigious as well as important and why Suckling, a relatively unknown candidate, was chosen by Sandwich, is not known.[36][37]

Drop the comma afteer Sandwich

• Done

• The naval experience that Suckling brought [to the position[ was , however, of great value to Sandwich[,] as he [who] went about reforming naval administration, with particular emphasis put on attempts to make Royal Navy shipyards more productive.

Cosider the above or somethong similar

• Done

Done - @Pickersgill-Cunliffe: Pendright (talk) 22:00, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• @Pendright: Thanks, I've replied above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: I support this nomination whether or not the comments left receive a response. Pendright (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support by Zawed

• ...by Captain George Townshend, another maternal relative, historian John Sugden says...: Suggest moving "another maternal relative" to precede Townshend. I initially parsed this sentence as referring to Sugden

• Done

• He was then on 1 November translated from Boyne...: "translated" seems an unusual term to a layman, does it mean transferred or another meaning?

• Changed to "translate"

• link post captain

• Done

• ...combined with his patronage and the beginning of the Seven Years' War to almost guarantee his promotion to that rank.: This didn't quite read right, perhaps the last part should be "...Seven Years' War to almost guaranteed his promotion to that rank."?

• Done

• Having returned from this, Suckling then had Nelson join the 24-gun...: this could be read as referring to Suckling having returned, rather than Nelson

• Reworded

• appointing Maurice a clerk in the Naval Office: what's the Naval Office? I see later in the Death section mention of a Navy Office, is this what was meant? (if so, the link will need to be moved).

• Linked moved

Some comments above for your consideration, looks in pretty good shape. Zawed (talk) 05:29, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

• @Zawed: Hi, thanks for taking a look! Responses above. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• All good, happy to add my support. Zawed (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Source review by Ykraps

• "In 1775 he unsuccessfully applied to the Admiralty for shore-based appointments in Newfoundland and Jamaica". - Unless I'm missing something, the source doesn't specifically state he was unsuccessful. Are we basing his lack of success on the fact that he wasn't appointed to either position? --Ykraps (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

  The sentence also contained some close paraphrasing which I attempted to remove with this edit [[2]]. Feel free to rewrite if you wish. --Ykraps (talk) 19:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Ykraps: Agree with your changes, thank you. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:42, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

• The Mariner's Mirror article isn't freely available to all. Should it be marked as such? --Ykraps (talk) 08:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

  Where there is a doi, it is assumed that a journal subscription is required. It can only be marked as doi-access=free. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:50, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, okay, thanks. --Ykraps (talk) 12:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

• "Suckling's sister Catherine had died on 26 December 1767" - You've used Sugden, who does indeed say December, to reference this but did you notice the next used reference, Syrett p. 37, says June? Can we have a quick look to see what the majority view is, use that date, double up on the refs, and add fn for other date/s? --Ykraps (talk) 12:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Ykraps: Hi, thanks for looking through this. Agree that I've gone a little far with the Admiralty applications and have removed "unsuccessfully" (although I expect this was the case!). Catherine's date of death is an interesting puzzle. I struggled to find any other truly RS sources that mention her full date of death; her Wikipedia article only cites Sugden! I think it is likely that Sugden is correct and Syrett has made an error because Catherine's gravestone [3] says 26 December. That said, I've added Syrett's separate date as a note. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

  The gravestone is fairly conclusive so I think it's right to relegate Syrett to a footnote. --Ykraps (talk) 19:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Support - I am happy that the sourcing meets A-class standards. They are reliable and of good quality, consistently formatted, and I have checked most for accuracy and close paraphrasing and some of those, I have listed below. Older sources are standard reference for articles on this subject and are routinely commented on by more modern historians such as Lambert, Hore and Gardiner so I see no problem using them either here or at FAC, if that's where you intend to go next. --Ykraps (talk) 06:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Spotchecks for accuracy and close paraphrasing

WP article: While some records suppose that he was supported in his joining of the navy by another maternal relative, Captain George Townshend, historian John Sugden says this was the doing of Walpole Sources: One authority states that Maurice Suckling entered the navy under the ‘auspices’ of Captain Hon. George Townshend who was a kinsman of his mother.5 While there is no evidence to support this assertion it was probably owing to the influence of Anne Suckling’s family – the Walpoles... -Syrett p. 33 Indeed, it was under auspices of the latter [Sir Robert Walpole] that Maurice had first gone to sea under Captain Thomas Fox. - Sugden 2005 p.55 WP article: The captain of Gloucester was his relative Townshend Sources: [Gloucester] at the hands of George Townshend (the son of his great aunt, Dorothy Viscountess Townshend) - Sugden 2005 p.55 WP article: The marriage further increased Suckling's network of powerful connections, as Mary was the sister-in-law of the daughter of William Cavendish, 3rd Duke of Devonshire, another powerful family. Sources: In 1761 his claims to attention had increased with his marriage to Mary, a sister of the second Lord Walpole and sister in law to a daughter of the third Duke of Devonshire... - Sugden 2005 p.55 WP article: Suckling left his sword, said to have previously been owned by Galfridus Walpole, to Nelson. Sources: The heirloom [Suckling's sword] was rumoured to have once belonged to Captain Suckling's great uncle, the naval hero Galfridus Walpole. - Sugden 2005 p. 132 WP article: Suckling's sister Catherine had died on 26 December 1767, leaving behind three sons; William, Maurice, and Horatio Nelson Sources: On the 26 December 1767, Catherine died... - Sugden 2005 p. 40 ...Suckling’s older sister Catherine Nelson had died. Catherine was the wife of Edmund Nelson, Rector of Hilbrough and Burnham Thorp, and when she died she left behind three sons... ...one of her sons, William Nelson... ...while another son, Maurice Nelson... And Horatio Nelson, Catherine’s third son, entered the Royal Navy... - Syrett p. 37 WP article: A view promoted in older biographies of Nelson, that he was unaware his uncle was to examine him and that Suckling did not tell the other examiners of their relationship, "not wish[ing] the younker to be favoured", has been questioned in more recent years by Sugden and naval historian R. J. B. Knight. Sources: While some older Nelson biographies take this version of events at face value, more recent attempts have identified the obvious holes in the story. These will be explored in due course. - Croft p. 38 ...both Howarth and Howarth’s and Hibbert’s biographies (first published in 1988 and 1994, respectively) reproduce the ‘alarmed/confused’ line, while more recent retellings (the publication of Sugden’s first volume coincided with the Trafalgar bicentenary in 2005; Knight’s likewise) scrutinize this quotation and ultimately conclude that it is unreliable. - Croft p. 40 WP article: Suckling lived in Barsham until the age of four when his father died. His mother then, along with his sister Catherine and brother William, moved the family to live at Beccles in the same county. Nothing is known of Suckling's childhood past this point apart from that he continued to live in Beccles. Sources: Maurice Suckling was born in the rectory house of Barsham in Suffolk on 4 May 1726... Four years after the birth of the future Captain Suckling, the Reverend Maurice Suckling died in 1730 and his widow Anne Suckling, with her daughter Catherine and her two sons Maurice and William, moved to Beccles in Suffolk. - Syrett p. 33 Nothing is known about Maurice Suckling’s childhood before he entered the navy in 1739 other than the fact that he lived with his mother, sister and brother at Beccles. - Syrett p. 33 WP article: During his tenure the mobilisation of the navy for war saw the number of ships under his purview expand from 110 in October 1775 to 306 in July 1778. Suckling attended the majority of meetings called by the Navy Board, often six days a week, overseeing both the growth of the navy and the creation of a fleet of 416 troop transports to convey the army across to America. Sources: The Commissioners of the Navy usually met six days a week - Syrett p. 38 ...the Commissioners of the Navy met 27 times and Suckling attended 25 of these meetings. - Syrett p. 38 Moreover, during the three years that Suckling was Controller of the Royal Navy, it increased in strength from a force which, in June 1775, consisted of 110 ships of all classes, manned by 16,301 men, to a strength that reached, in July1778, 306 ships manned by 72,839 men. - Syrett p. 38 the Commissioners of the Navy also chartered and fitted for service a further 416 ships, consisting of 128,427 tons, to convey an army of about 27,000men across the Atlantic to North America. - Syrett p. 38 WP article: Having missed almost every battle that took place during the War of the Austrian Succession and Seven Years' War, Syrett argues that the majority of Suckling's career was "uneventful and perhaps even lacklustre" Sources: Maurice Suckling’s career as an officer in the Royal Navy was uneventful and perhaps even lacklustre. Serving in mostly large ships and fighting in only one minor battle, he was not present at any of the great events or battles of the War of Austrian Succession and the Seven Years War - Syrett p. 39 WP article: Naval historian N. A. M. Rodger argues that Suckling was a "less successful choice" than Palliser had been because of this, but that he was still an able man. Sources: His [Palliser] replacement, Captain Maurice Suckling, was also an able man but a less successful choice, mainly because he was seriously ill within two years of appointment. - Rodger p. 372 WP article: Having initially served again as fourth lieutenant, Suckling was promoted to become Boyne's third on 9 January 1748 and her second on 16 August. Sources: 6.5.1747 (28.10.1748) 4L, Boyne (80); 9.1.1747/48 (28.10.1748) 3L, Boyne (80); 16.8.1748 (28.10.1748) 2L, Boyne (80) - Cy Harrison p. 464 Then on 9 June 1747 Suckling became third lieutenant of HMS Boyne and, by a commission dated 16 August 1747, he was promoted to second lieutenant of that ship. - Syrett p. 34

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.