Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Assessment/Top-important/Now reassigned

Novels previously assigned Top-importance but now reassigned

n.b. please list strictly alphabetically

Clarissa

Summary status ( 4 for | 5 against) Top class - as at 12:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• Top - This one is considered Richardson's masterpiece and is thought to be the longest novel in English. Influenced much later literature. --Ibis3 22:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Top - I agree with those points, but feel that the promotion might be compromised by the fact that no one seems to read this novel any more. --Sordel 07:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
• Top - although I'd prefer Pamela, as the first epistolary novel and the work by Richardson that is currently more likely to be read. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Top - Mandel 06:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• High - from non-English viewpoint, I'd say its really obscure piece of literature hardly anybody except English literature student would be interested in. --Wikimol 15:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• High. Unknown author and unknown work for me (which I assume is indicative for non-English natives).— Preceding unsigned comment added by Errabee (talk • contribs)
• High. I'd say one in five degree-educated people in this country (UK) would have heard of it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Psmither (talk • contribs)
• Mid. An obscure novel, and as Wikimol said, only English lit students would know of it (or the author, regardless of importance). Non-native English & European POV.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.11.230.74 (talk • contribs)
• Mid. Obscure indeed - never heard of it.Yobmod (talk) 09:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Erast Fandorin

Summary status ( 2 for | 2 against) Top class - as at 15:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. The central character in a currently 11-part detective novel series by Boris Akunin, the pen name of Russian scholar Grigory Chkhartishvili. Each novel is a pastiche on a different genre of detective novel. Literary interesting, and immensely popular (more than 15,000,000 copies sold). Errabee 15:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Relegate to high or medium. Immensely popular in Russia, maybe, but not very well known in the English-speaking world. There's any number of high-selling series of mystery novels - I'd suggest Lord Peter Wimsey, for instance, is much better known in the English-speaking world. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. "Immensely popular in Russia" should be given sufficient notice. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 15:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Demote. I'm a literature major and I've never heard of it. While that doesn't mean it's not an important novel, it probably doesn't need top status. Applejuicefool 16:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The second novel was turned into a movie in Russia, which was released around the same time as LotR:The Return of the King. LotR was clearly defeated in the box office: $19Million for Fandorin vs $14Million for LotR. Perhaps this says something about its popularity. And you probably never heard of it, since it is relatively new: the first books were published in 1998, and translated into English only in 2003. Errabee 17:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC) P.S. And as a bonus compared with Harry Potter and The Da Vinci Code: Fandorin has significant literary value, comparable to Sherlock Holmes. P.P.S. Paul Verhoeven wants to turn the first novel into a movie to be released world wide. Errabee 17:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
• Relegate to medium. Nothing contemporary should be under top class - too early to tell. Mandel 06:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• Relegate - I have no doubt that they are important and well-known in Russia, but this is the English language wikipedia, and I, a big mystery fan, have never even heard of it. Badbilltucker 23:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Relegate - will have to wait for world fame. --Wikimol 15:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Gone with the Wind

Summary status ( 0 for | 2 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak rerate as high. This entry depends on the popularity of the film; let the film be Top-important. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as high. Film more significant than the book. Silverthorn 15:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Max Havelaar

Summary status ( 2 for | 3 against) Top class - as at 16:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Very influential novel, formed inspiration for the establishment of the Fairtrade Labelling Organizations International. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate to high. It may be influential historically overall and within Dutch/Indonesian culture especially, but I think in terms of literature, there a lot of other books that would rate higher in priority. This book isn't listed as one of the Great Books, nor on Bloom's Western Canon list or on BBC's Big 100 list etc.--Ibis3 21:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate to high. I had never knowingly heard of this novel, and the argument made for its inclusion in this group seems weak. It just doesn't seem to rank with others at this level. --Sordel 14:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate to high. There's so many better known works that aren't in top. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Please note that Max Havelaar is considered to be THE most important Dutch work (not just novel) by members of the Dutch Literary Society (see this list of the Digital Library of Dutch Literature (sorry, Dutch only)) Errabee 20:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • You make a good point, but of course we don't have national quotas for top-importance. We can only base our personal recommendation on our own knowledge or the case made to us. --Sordel 20:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
    • A couple of thoughts on this. Dutch is a relatively little spoken language, and Dutch novels are not especially well known in English. Perhaps this is a similar case to The Betrothed, but I think the latter is actually considerably better known than Max Havelaar, perhaps just because Italian is a more spoken language than Dutch. but I guess there's a real question as to what our responsibilities are to literature that is not widely known in English. This is an English encyclopedia, and it should cater to things likely to be looked up by English-speakers. Anna Karenina, or The Charterhouse of Parma, or The Tin Drum, is well known in English as well as in its native language. I'm not sure the same can be said of this one. john k 20:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Very influential novel. I'm with Errabee on the importance in Dutch literature. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:12, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

It got demoted to Mid-importance. Errabee 19:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Rerate to high.
• Top. I disagree with john k. Criteria should not be made on knowability but on how influential or important the novel is. This is an English-language world encyclopedia. If a book is little known in the English-speaking world but important and highly regarded elsewhere, all the more it should be promoted. Mandel 07:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC

My Name is Red

Summary status ( 0 for | 4 against) Top class - as at 15:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• Mid - Difficult to assess the importance of a novel that was published since 2000 and is, so far as I know, not well known or culturally pervasive. The article makes little case for Top-importance, and even a high rating looks generous. --Sordel 18:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• High or Mid - Too recent to be of the iconic status necessary for top, I think. Not all that well known. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Mid - Nothing contemporary should be under top class - too early to tell. Mandel 06:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• Mid - Wikimol 15:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Rated as High as a compromise - can't see this as a Top yet myself either :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 15:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

No Great Mischief

Summary status ( 0 for | 4 against) Top class - as at 15:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• High - Not terribly well known, quite recent. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Medium - Nothing contemporary should be under top class - too early to tell. Mandel 06:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• Medium - Too new. The Deptford Trilogy would make a better candidate. Badbilltucker 14:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Medium - Wikimol 15:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Rated as Medium based on concensus :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 15:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Pigeon Post

Summary status ( 0 for | 3 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Mid - While there are classic children's novels that justify Top and High importance, I wouldn't think of this as one of them. --Sordel 18:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• High or Mid - One of an enormous series of children's books I've never heard of. Doesn't seem comparable to Moby-Dick or Crime and Punishment
• Mid - Agree with Sordel and john k.

Starship Troopers

Summary status ( 0 for | 6 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong rerate as mid. The film is well-known, the book itself hardly had any impact on society. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as High. The novel really furthered the Military Science Fiction genre, the influences can be seen in even Star Wars. Not to mention that it is by Heinlein, which has to count for something. However, I agree that it is probably not deserving of a Top rating when included in the general "novels" category; if this was just science fiction, then probably. -- Gizzakk 22:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong rerate as mid.--Ibis3 21:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong rerate as mid, never heard of it --Jahsonic 23:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong rerate as mid Only of interest within a very specialised genre. --Sordel 07:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as High, Of interest within the genre - but it is elitist to say "very specialised". The fact that someone has not heard of it or doesn't rate the genre does not indicate that the novel is of little significance. Please read the article and you might get the notion of it's significance. Please note I have no particular pro-title allegience here, I am no fan, but it is a highly influencial novel. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 09:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• "Very specialised" was a response to the argument above that the novel had furthered the Military Science Fiction genre, which seems to me to be a very specific sub-genre of Science Fiction in general. I am not, admittedly, a Science Fiction expert, but at the time that the film came out I had never heard of Starship Troopers whereas I had heard of I, Robot, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Dune, The Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451, The Time Machine, The Invisible Man etc., none of which are currently rated as Top-important although perhaps they should be. Presumably once the evident classics of Science Fiction have all been rated Top-important it will not be conspicuous when a novel comparatively obscure in broad cultural terms is admitted to this category on its own merits. I accept, nonetheless, that High may be more appropriate for this novel than mid. --Sordel 10:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Swallows and Amazons

Summary status ( 2 for | 3 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Rate as High (at best) Better known (in my estimation) than Pigeon Post but still not sufficiently important, even within the field of children's literature, to belong in this company. --Sordel 18:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate to high or medium. Another of that interminable children's series. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Return to Top - if only on the basis of it's readership over the years. It has a film based on it and appears in large numbers of lists of children's literature. This isn't about whether we like it, just should it be in the encyclopedia and how much should it! :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 10:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
  • But is it more worthy of top-importance than Five Children and It, The Railway Children, Peter Pan, The Famous Five, The Secret Garden, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi or any number of other great children's novels? We might get S&A into the top-important category some day, but it would seem to be skipping the queue, surely? --Sordel 11:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I know of no idea of queue here - or even of the real benefit for one. However if that is what we want, we should get on with those titles you mention. They should all be Top in my view. Even Famous Five as they have had hugh impact on readership particulary in the 20th Century. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 11:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to note, as an American, I'd never heard of this book until I came upon it in the top category. Some children's classics, I suspect, are strongly centered in a single country, and this would appear to be among them. Perhaps I'm wrong, and this is popular outside of Britain, but I'd be interested to see some evidence of that. Beyond that, I largely agree with Sordel - I think an informal "queue" makes a fair degree of sense - basically, starting from a small list of indisputable great novels (Anna Karenina, Don Quixote, Ulysses, and so forth), and gradually building up by putting in books that are of comparable importance to those already on the list. Otherwise we get into a lot of these problems of commensurability. john k 18:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• Return to Top. I agree with Kevinalewis. Probably the best known of this series, all of which have stood the test of time and should be represented in some form. The other novels mentioned by Sordel are also worthy of consideration, but the fact that they have not been considered up until now is not a sufficient reason to downgrade this one. Silverthorn 11:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The Assault

Summary status ( 1 for | 2 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Very weak keep. Well known novel turned into Academy Award winning (foreign) film. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as High. Never heard of it. --Sordel 08:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as high. Not very well known. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The Chrysalids

Summary status ( 0 for | 3 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Rate as high. I would have thought that The Day of the Triffids was the more obvious candidate for Top-importance, but there would be a hard case to make even for that. --Sordel 18:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Rate as high. Not of top importance. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• High. Agreed with Sordel that the triffids would make a better candidate. Errabee 12:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The Life and Adventures of Nicholas Nickleby

Summary status ( 0 for | 3 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Rerate as high. Yet another Dickens novels. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Weak rerate as high. --Ibis3 21:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as high. --Sordel 07:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The Pickwick Papers

Summary status ( 0 for | 4 against) Top class - as at 08:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak rerate as high. Yet another Dickens novel; don't get me wrong, I love Dickens but too much is too much. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as high. Whilst Dickens is undoubtedly an important author, I do not believe that justifies rating all of his novels as top. This one I do not believe is of sufficient significance in it's own right to justify the top rating. Silverthorn 13:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Weak rerate as high. The only argument for keeping is that this was arguably his debut (ok, so technically Sketches came first).--Ibis3 21:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Rerate as high. It's not much read, has no major film and is thought to be minor in terms of actual literary value. With so many candidates for top-importance in Dickens's oeuvre, this is one that really could be relegated. --Sordel 07:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Titus Groan

Summary status ( 0 for | 6 against) Top class - as at 16:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• High - I like Peake, but nothing by him should be of top importance. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• High - --Sordel 19:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• Medium - Actually this is hardly influential.Mandel 06:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• High - Titus Groan series is counted as very influential in the fantasy genre, but only the fantasy genre. Badbilltucker 23:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• High - --Wikimol 15:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Medium - Errabee 15:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)