Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/eSports/afd/2008

Q3[edit]

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The result was merge all to List of Championship Gaming Series teams, which has yet to be created. Articles will not be deleted afterward. lifebaka++ 12:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Championship Gaming Series teams[edit]

Mass nomination of team articles from a notable video gaming league. The key question is that, while the league may be notable, do the individual teams each also have separate notability? The team articles are all devoid of independant sourcing that would indicate notability. One was A7 speedy deleted within the last couple of days, and then recreated, which lead up to my looking at them all. I know that in normal professional sports, individual teams are assumed notability. But does that extend to computer gaming? I just do not see it being such. TexasAndroid (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although Computer Gaming may not be considered a sport to many people, it has many of the same components: A League, Teams, Competitive Meets between two teams, A Championship and positions depending on the game being played. So saying that computer gaming isn't a sport because it's on the computer is an opinion, not a fact and the fact is that computer gaming is not much different than American Football: Positions, Teams, A League, Drafting, Seasons and Competitive play. Kingofeds (talk) 23:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge all into a List of CGS Teams Article --Numyht (talk) 17:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The league itself is noteworthy, yes, but you also need to consider that it's only 2 years old. The team pages don't have all too much information because of this short history of the league itself. If the consensus it to delete or merge, at least Keep 3D.NY - they have a much greater history than the other CGS teams, and they were formerly a well-known gaming team before becoming the CGS team that they currently are. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 18:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few reliable, independant, non-trivial references to each of these would go a huge way towards showing that they have notability. Even your "well-known" 3D NY is devoid of such sources currently. - TexasAndroid (talk) 14:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From my searching all existing Team 3D info has been redirected to the 3D.NY CGS page. Unless anyone else knows of where one could find info on the old Team 3D? TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 14:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and delete - not notable enough for seperate articles. Also delete the nav box on the articles. Aygo (talk) 18:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game related deletions. MrKIA11 (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect all articles to Championship Gaming Series. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. MuZemike (talk) 02:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all. Teams have no independent notability and are already adequately covered within Championship Gaming Series. nancy ^talk 10:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge all. Which should be easy, as each entry actually contains very little information. Ford MF (talk) 18:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge all. 5 guys in a basement is not the same as a professional sports team. Any coverage can go into main article unless there is enough sources to warrant an individual page. Drunken Pirate (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per Numyht Pie is good ^{(Apple is the best)} 21:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Delete per WP:SNOW. J.delanoy ^gabs _adds 00:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mew2King[edit]

Unnotable video game player, sadly it does have an assertion of notability so it cant be speedied but there are no sources to back up the claim and I am not sure how notable being good a Super smash bros' makes you. A Google search for his name and his alias[1] brings up only a very few hits, none of which are reliable. According to http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Mew2King the competitions he has participated in are Smash Panel Power Rankings and the North Atlantic Regional Power Rankings neither of which has an article so both are probably unnotable. - Icewedge (talk) 06:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per AfDs on more notable video game tournament winners that have been deleted. JuJube (talk) 11:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game related deletions. MrKIA11 (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails WP:N and is one big unverifiable claim. MrKIA11 (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails notability horribly. Do we even have articles on competitive SSB play in the first place? --erachima talk 11:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(Speedy) Delete. Honestly, I would have speedied this, as saying you're the world's best video game player is right up there with those cutest/smartest schoolkid articles that always get deleted within milliseconds of creation. But whether speedily or not, definitely delete: not notable, fails WP:BIO, etc etc etc Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, though a claim of being the world's best video game player is a claim of notability that trumps the Speedy Deletion criteria. And, you know what, if there was significant coverage of that championship, with reliable sources and everything, I might be inclined to keep - but that's not the case here. No objection to a properly sourced article about this individual, particularly if they end up being notable - we already have some professional video gamers, such as Ola Moum, Fatal1ty, and Billy Mitchell (gamer), so an article of this type isn't out of the realm of possibility - but there just isn't enough here. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 13:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:SNOW and WP:OR. Better articles than this have already been deleted. MuZemike (talk) 22:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note — Mew2King has his own account at Wikia and has edited his own article (see Wikia article history). While that conflict of interest does not equate to a problem here or even there, it may be something to lookout for. MuZemike (talk) 19:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 03:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alexey Yanushevsky[edit]

Contested PROD. Article fails WP:BIO. Secondary (that is, not primary) sources cannot be included to establish notability of a living person. None of the references are verifiable. MuZemike (talk) 20:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game related deletions. MuZemike (talk) 20:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I don't think a professional gamer is usually notable, especially when the article consists primarily of lists of trivia (see my list at WP:COD). Also, it contains future events and speculation. However, please note that academically speaking, news is not really a primary source, though it sometimes can be; a primary source would be a scoreboard or screenshots or something. --Falcon Darkstar Kirtaran (talk) 22:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep. WP:BIO (WP:ATHLETE) says:

Competitors who have competed in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.
Yanushevsky won two major international Quake competitions—QuakeCon and Electronic Sports World Cup, hence notable. Sources given in article are e-sports news or official competition websites. Why don't put a proper template in the place of missing/wrong reference, {{fact}} for example, instead of nominating article for deletion? Visor (talk) 14:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{Primarysources}} and {{notability}} templates were placed on the article prior to the article being prodded (see diff). MuZemike (talk) 15:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, exactly in the place of sentence. What exactly source do you need to proof scores other than official competition website? Visor (talk) 16:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BIO stipulates: A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. It further reads: Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject.
I consider all the references in the article primary sources because they are closest in relation to the person. I do not see any verifiable secondary sources, that is, sources outside these official sites that contain information about Cypher.
As far as templates are concerned, I always try to tag articles appropriately (i.e. {{notability}} or {{unreferenced}}) and wait a few days before going the deletion route, which is strongly recommended per WP:AFD. With that said, if I thought there were places in the article that were missing references, I would place a {{refimprove}} tag on top and, if I am in a generous mood and have the time, place the appropriate inline tags. However, I thought the bigger problem was that it lacks secondary sources, which needs to be addressed before we address any missing citations/references. I hope that clears things up as far as tagging is concerned.
Finally, in regards to WP:ATHLETE, I'm not to argue whether or not the person falls under its description, as it likely does; nonetheless, it still must meet the basic notability standards set forth for articles about people. That's where I disagree as far as notability is concerned. MuZemike (talk) 18:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. —Visor (talk) 16:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. —Visor (talk) 16:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

if I understand primary and secondary sources correctly, three of the six sources listed (I added another one) are secondary since they ^[1]^[2]^[3] depend on other sources (mainly websites) to report about the tournament results in question. Zerter (talk)

Strong keep (disclaimer: I started the article) Yanushevsky himself is definitely notable. As far as any problems with sourcing or possibly writing that in the eyes of some do not meet wikipedia standards, this does not seem reason enough for me to delete the article - improving it would serve the project better. I'm willing to help in this regard, when time permits me, if anyone can point out the irregularities.Zerter (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

keep - not really an athlete, but a professional who is recognized to be among the best in his field. --T-rex 00:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, satisfying WP:BIO for competing at the highest level of play. — brighterorange (talk) 03:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Q4[edit]

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The result was already deleted per parallel debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Foulacy. This debate was not listed; I'm listing it in today's logs for recordkeeping purposes. --ais523 13:38, 3 January 2007 (U T C)

Peter Dietrich (electronic sports player)[edit]

Reason Arrashju 18:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Peter Dietrich has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
SMerge to Major League Gaming. Isn't notable enough on his own to merit an article, but a brief mention (i.e. two or three sentences) in the MLG article wouldn't be out of line, something along the lines of the header at the top of his article as is not exists. It could go under a new section for "notable players", or somesuch. Failing that, delete, since it can't pass WP:V on its own (due to a lack of reliable sources). It doesn't help that more than half of the text is a quote from another website, either. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 17:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete.--Kchase T 01:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chris Smith (electronic sports player)[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete fails WP:BIO - and how can playing an electronic game gain one notariety? At all? SkierRMH 21:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per above.--Bryson 21:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Skier: there have been notable professional gamers, including some with product lines now named after them that have claimed over a million dollars in combined prizes (Fatal1ty comes to mind), but those cases are few and far far between. There are *maybe* at the outside a dozen notable pro gamers out there... Wintermut3 06:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete no independent verification of notability from reputable sources.-- danntm ^T _C 15:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This gamer has been featured the most on USA Network out of any MLG gamer. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arrashju (talk • contribs)
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor has any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Where does it say you have to be international?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arrashju (talk • contribs)
Delete per nom. --Wizardman 22:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 21:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ryan Danford[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 22:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As per nom --Bryson 22:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BIO - all of these need to disappear. SkierRMH,22:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Previously a member of the number one Halo 2 team in the world. Passes WP:BIO by playing at the absolute highest level of his sport- and I'd considered getting paid a quarter of a million bucks to play video games is rather notable in its own right. -- Kicking222 03:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete NN person. I love video games, but they are NOT a sports (so that argument about playing at the highest level goes out the window). TJ Spyke 05:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment But chess is a sport. So is curling. To each his own, I suppose, but that's not a reason that he isn't notable. Charlie 07:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Chess a sport? Hahahaha, thanks for the laugh. Curling possible, but not chess. TJ Spyke 07:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    - You can laugh all you want: It has been proposed as an Olympic sport several times. Charlie 07:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Proposed, it would never happen. Besides, those idiots think that synchronized swimming is a sport and don't have football in. TJ Spyke 22:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        Football actually is in the Olympics.. The 2004 football competition was won by Argentina. See Football at the Summer Olympics. -- DJiTH 22:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Whether or not video gaming is a sport is irrelevant, since WP:BIO also recognizes people who are playing at the highest level in "other competitive activities"; presumably that's how Wikipedia is allowed to have articles on Garry Kasparov, Phil Ivey, etc. P4k 00:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Spyke. Edison 18:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Ryan Danford has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor made any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.... First, whether or not gaming is a sport, the gamers are still competitors of the highest level, and Saiyan was a member of Final Boss, the #1 team and the most media-saturated and notable. The team got a $1,000,000 contract to play games, so I would say they'd have to be the top competitors. They're on TV, they're mentioned on virtually every gaming site on the web, and there are more than enough sources to make this a good article. (In fact, I am trying to start a WikiProject:Pro Gaming in order to make these the good articles they can be, here's a link to the proposal for anyone interested: [2]) Here's some sources to build an article from:

Interview with Ryan "Saiyan" Danford [3], probably the 10th separate link I've found referring to their contract [4], an interview with NBA star Gilbert Arenas who signed them for 1 mil (he mentions Ryan) [5], a link discussing his involvement in the World Gaming Championships (he and his partner were beaten by Ogre 1 and 2) [6], and you can probably find more abut him in any link I gave for Final Boss, Tom Ryan, or Dan Ryan on their AfD's in you still need more links. Again, this is about whether or not they have enough sources, and meet WP:BIO, which he does by being a top competitor (it doesn't say athlete, but competitor, making the sport argument completely moot). I've feel that I've proven notability enough over all these articles to prove that they can become good, useful articles, and like I said, I'm committing to improving them and finding others to help improve them through a new WikiProject. J0lt C0la 23:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Ryan Danford is a top competitor. I'm not going to repeat the logical argument above by J0lt C0la - Stinkman 22:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
keep please this person does meet bio and is notable by verifiable sources Yuckfoo 02:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, professional gamers with media coverage appear notable to me. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 21:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. --Ezeu 00:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Cavanaugh[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As per nom --Bryson 22:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BIO - all of these need to disappear. SkierRMH,22:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As with many of the others, Cavanaugh/StrongSide passes WP:BIO by playing at the highest competitive level of his sport. He was on one of the best teams in the world, Team Carbon, and is now on Team Final Boss- which, last I knew, was numero uno. -- Kicking222 04:02, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, the "highest competitive level" has always been the weakest link in WP:BIO as it is. And this article is about the perfect argument against it. Seraphimblade 04:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sorry, but you can't stop following Wikipedia policy just because you don't agree with it. Meets WP:BIO-Stinkman 22:25, December 2006
Keep It's been a long day, so I'll try to keep it shorter than on the other AfD's. He used to be a member of Team Carbon and is now a member of Final Boss, placing him on both of the most notable e-sports teams. That alone makes him meet WP:BIO, but I'll give you a few links just to solidify it. [7] [8] He probably has an article in a physical paper like the others, but I haven't found one yet, and I'm busy arguing on too many articles as it is. Even if he doesn't, just by being on Carbon and Final Boss, he meets notability guidelines. J0lt C0la 04:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, meets WP:BIO. --badlydrawnjeff talk 05:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, professional gamers that get media attention are certainly notable. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 16:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — sources are too trivial to pass WP:BIO; nothing else that passes notability. Article also reads like a blog post in parts. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 06:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to improve the articles with the multitude of sources that I've given, it won't "read like a blog" when I'm done. J0lt C0la 00:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Michael Cavanaugh has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor has any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your work on e-sports in general, but I am seeing a major anti-MLG bias in all your 'delete' votes. I feel that I have gone above and beyond in proving notability in all these AfD's, and that you are against the articles merely because they are members of MLG rather than some other league. J0lt C0la 00:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

keep please this meets bio guideline not liking it is not reason for deleting Yuckfoo 02:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as he plays at the highest level of his "sport". --- RockMFR 21:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 21:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Carlos Morales (electronic sports player)[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As per nom.--Bryson 21:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BIO - all of these need to disappear. SkierRMH,22:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep He passes WP:BIO by playing at the highest competitive level of his (e-)sport. He has been a member of multiple notable teams, including currently playing on the team considered to be third-best in the world (Str8 Rippin), and he is one of the players signed to quarter-million dollar contracts to play in Major League Gaming. This was noted by Gamespot and again by Yahoo! and Game Informer. Also, if you scroll down here, you'll find a video interview with Morales from 1UP.com. -- Kicking222 16:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Edison 19:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, professional gamers that get media attention are certainly notable. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 16:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Carlos Moralez has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor has any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. alphachimp. 18:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Brandon Jenkins[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As per nom.--Bryson 21:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BIO - and how can playing an electronic game gain one notariety? At all? SkierRMH 22:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Though I certainly tried, I could find no independent verification (via reliable sources) of any of Jenkins's achievements. -- Kicking222 16:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Technically, the nominator is saying HE is an AfD. Edison 01:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Edison 19:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Brandon Jenkins has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor has any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 21:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Team Str8 Rippin[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is a team to an insignificant gaming league called Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 22:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete fails WP:BIO - all of these (individuals and groups) need to disappear. SkierRMH,22:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you even bothered to read the articles? -- Kicking222 01:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, I have read the articles, please see comments on your talk page. SkierRMH 13:02, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per nom --Bryson 22:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Same question as above. -- Kicking222 01:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - As per the Team Carbon nomination. This professional esports team has had $1million+ contracts, as cover by Reuters, Gamespot, GamaSutra and amped. - hahnch e n 01:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep One of the most well-known MLG teams, as discussed in multiple highly reliable sources. -- Kicking222 01:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I'm following the convention of presuming notability for athletes in the who compete at the highest level of their sport, because the MLG is currently the highest level of organized video gaming competition. Note that the cites to the MLG website curently in the article usually are suspect, because they are not independent. However, User:Hahnchen has kindly found independent sources to verify the notability of this team.-- danntm ^T _C 02:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, in addition to Hahnchen's sources, team and its members discussed in Palm Beach Post and Sports Illustrated. -- Dragonfiend 05:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - The emergence of professional teams in computer gaming is as significant and notable as any major sports team, and probably more notable than many of the second-tier professional athletes that regularly meet WP:BIO standards. Tarinth 17:06, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Colin. Edison 18:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Str8 Rippin is the oldest MLG team being formed early in the 1st season of MLG. Fonzi and Foulacy are the players that make Str8 Rippin successful. That being said: this team has had plenty of time to become notable. Why did someone delete AYB Fonzi/Alfonso Chartier?
Delete Article lacks information from reliable sources in order to pass WP:BIO. Only featured in pulp entertainment press and business press, not in electronic sports press. Notability is also in question. The team has not appeared in any major international competitions. MLG achievements are slightly notable, but not major enough in order to have an article. Notice in the Major League Gaming article should suffice. -- DJiTH 23:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — group that doesn't meet WP:BIO; no reliable, third party sources for verification of notability. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 19:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. --Ezeu 23:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eric Hewitt[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete fails WP:BIO - and how can playing an electronic game gain one notariety? At all? SkierRMH 21:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per above. --Bryson 21:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Naconkantari 22:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I thought Santa brought me the end of this nonsense for Christmas, but I guess not. One, Eric Hewitt is a member of Carbon, an extremely notable and #1 ranked team, one of the teams on TV every Saturday, with a lot of media coverage, and is notable just in that. But just in case that doesn't do it, here's some links:

Link talking about Carbon's contract [9], interview with him [10], Discussion of pro gaming in traditional news [11], two articles about the World Series of Video Games which mention/quote him [12] and [13]

I truly hope this the last one of these I have to do for now, but it's probably not. I'm just glad I caught these before all these articles disappeared off the face of Wikipedia due to people's personal bias against the concept of pro gaming as a sport. J0lt C0la 00:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — media coverage is too trivial, so WP:BIO is not passed. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 06:23, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Scott Lussier has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor has any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your work on e-sports in general, but I am seeing a major anti-MLG bias in all your 'delete' votes. I feel that I have gone above and beyond in proving notability in all these AfD's, and that you are against the articles merely because they are members of MLG rather than some other league. Competition is not required to be international under notability guidelines, merely national. These articles have more than enough sources to become good, useful articles, and isn't that what this is (or should be) all about? J0lt C0la 02:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. --Wizardman 22:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
keep please professional gamers are just as notable as professional sports players plus this is verifiable too Yuckfoo 02:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. alphachimp. 18:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Scott Lussier[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As per nom.--Bryson 21:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BIO - and how can playing an electronic game gain one notariety? At all? SkierRMH 21:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as per above. Chairman S. Talk ^Contribs 23:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Scott Lussier has been featured on MLG's Pro Circuit on USA Network. MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor has any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 22:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Redirect/Merge to Major League Gaming. For all the vociferousness of the comments, I am unimpressed with the quality of sources to back them up, and especially with the attempts to sell press releases, blog posts, and interested (i.e., not independent) media as reliable sources. So the threshold primary subject of multiple independent sources has not been met. On the other hand, the scraps of acceptable material, especially the Reuters article, show that coverage of the team is acceptable within the right context, in this case the main MLG article (which is also how it is covered in that article). I expect that the exposure of the team will increase, so in due time with more reliable sources it can be spun out, but poorly sourced articles like this one fail the core policies of Wikipedia. I'm redirecting because the team is already covered and I don't see much in terms of sourced material that can be merged, but if anyone has better material than urbandictionary to source the claims, the edit history is still available. ~ trialsanderrors 08:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to no consensus after input from deletion review. ~ trialsanderrors 20:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Team Final Boss[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is a team to an insignificant gaming league called Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete fails WP:BIO - all of these (individuals and groups) need to disappear. SkierRMH,22:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - As per nom --Bryson 22:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - As per the Team Carbon nomination. This professional esports team has had $1million+ contracts, as cover by Reuters, Gamespot, GamaSutra and amped. - hahnchen 01:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because an item makes it into Reuters doesn't mean that it's notable. Marketting does play a role in what gets reported in the media. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 02:01, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I'm sure it does. However, the numbers involved back this up, numbers and press you'd be very hard pressed to find in the entire list of webcomics. - hahnch e n 02:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep- do not snipe! The Halo 2 team. Incredibly notable, as noted in the links provided by Hahnchen above. -- Kicking222 01:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep a major team in the top-level competition of video gaming competition, and the Reuters article provides independent verification.-- danntm ^T _C 03:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As per the arguments for notability I've already made for all its members. Just to make the team's notability more obvious, I'll add the prerequisite list 'o links (bear in mind I edit from a 56k connection, so all this link looking up for all these articles has taken me a lot of time)

1up article on their 1 mil contract [14], Team XBox article on the same huge contract [15], synopsis of one of their battles with Carbon [16], GotFrag news article [17], GotFrag article on Final Boss's formation [18], multiple Yahoo news articles [19] [20]

I think their notability is well proven between here and the AfD's for its members. J0lt C0la 05:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep per above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 05:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Keep I don't know if I should laugh or cry about Wikipedia AfD's, this is as notable as can be in the gaming industry, not to mention Internet culture in general. Tarinth 17:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Edison 18:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep MLG is a very significant league - it offers the most prize money for its permanant games and has broadcasted shows on USA Network featuring every single player and team on the list. Most if not all players have had articles written about them in their local newspaper. EGM magazine - the most popular gaming magazine (you can get it in any of your local pharmacy stores) regularly feature MLG and its best teams and players. Wall Street Journal published an article about the first contract deal MLG offered to its top gamers.
Delete Article lacks information from reliable sources in order to pass WP:BIO. Only featured in pulp entertainment press and business press, not in electronic sports press. Notability is also in question. The team has not appeared in any major international competitions. MLG achievements are slightly notable, but not major enough in order to have an article. Notice in the Major League Gaming article should suffice. Notable results mentioned in the article (WCG and CPL wins in 2005) belong to Team 3D and should definitely be removed from this article. -- DJiTH 23:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Actually, the fact that it appears in the media outside electronic sports press probably makes them more notable, rather than less. --Habap 23:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Not in these cases. The field we are talking about is relatively young and general media have shown no effort whatsoever to inform themselves well regarding the field. Professional gaming is a buzz phrase right now, and whoever shouts loudest (or whoever gets the biggest investment to put into a communications department) "wins" the media attention. This is exactly the case with these MLG related articles. I think we should be weary regarding "bought" media attention. Nonetheless, the point was that they were hardly mentioned by electronic sports media. Eg, the media specialized in the field has deemed them hardly notable. -- DJiTH 23:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your work on e-sports in general, but I am seeing a major anti-MLG bias in all your 'delete' votes. I feel that I have gone above and beyond in proving notability in all these AfD's, and that you are against the articles merely because they are members of MLG rather than some other league. J0lt C0la 00:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But is notability based on whether something is discussed by the experts in the field or if it is known by the average Joe? Far fewer people have heard of eSports than happen to click across USA Network while surfing cable. I'm still up in the air about the article since the original quality of the writing obscured whether it might be notable. I think our criteria in evaluating some of the stars of eSports (Ksharp and HeatoN) was whether they could make a living doing it. If these kids on Final Boss get paid $60,000 a year, I think they pass that criteria. They may not have been at the top of their profession for 5 years, but it sounds like they have been for 2-3 years. --Habap 18:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep This would be the Team 3d of console gaming. Djith it is strange that you claim EG hardly finds them notable when they "were" Team 3D. I would need to see citations for you claim (or maybe that was your opinion?). The fact that non-gaming industries find them notable only makes your argument seemingly more bias and anti-MLG. Your claim that this industry is based on who is willing to push more money out differs from other industries in what way? Of course all of that is irrelavent to the fact that media attention paid for or not is a guideline for notablility. The more media attention the more notable (at least in the case of the current entertainment industry). Valoem ^talk 06:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are in fact some guidelines regarding the reliability of sources; WP:RS. Also take a look at WP:V#SELF. With these, you will have to come to the conclusion that the show on USA Network does not pass. Regarding Team 3D, 3D is a major e-Sports club, that in the past, had players that now play for MLG Team Final Boss under contract. However, Team 3D is much broader and is mostly focussed around their Counter-Strike squad. For the results of the Counter-Strike squad alone, it would be notable. For the results of the former HALO squad alone, it may not be. Regarding the accomplishments now listed at Team Final Boss, it would be highly dubious to take achievements players had at one club to a new club. For instance, if the entire squad of FC Barcelona would move to Ajax Amsterdam, would Ajax have won the UEFA Champions League in 2006? Of course not. -- DJiTH 14:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was early closure of this discussion, as suggested by several contributors here and on the admin noticeboard. This mass nomination clearly won't produce any sort of meaningful consensus either way. All remain free to re-list these articles individually. The nominator is kindly requested to remove the AfD tags from the articles. Sandstein 20:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Team Carbon[edit]

This is a team specific to Major League Gaming, but fails to be notable under WP:BIO. Also included in this AfD are the following pages:

Chris Smith (electronic sports player)
Scott Lussier
Eric Hewitt
~~Ben Jackson (electronic sports player)~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
~~Dave Walsh~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
Alfonso Chartier
~~Team Str8 Rippin~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
Foulacy
Brandon Jenkins
~~Team Final Boss~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
~~Dan Ryan (electronic sports player)~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
Carlos Morales (electronic sports player)
~~Thomas Taylor (electronic sports player)~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
Michael Cavanaugh
~~Victor de Leon III~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
~~Tom Ryan~~Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
Ryan Danford
Zyos
~~Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel -- May be possibly notable.~~ Determined that this article is note-worthy. Remvoing from AfD.
~~Team NoA -- This has been speedy deleted twice and the last AfD reached no concensus.~~
~~Team 3D~~
TuLegit This is the only article that is CLEARLY NOT note-worthy.

I would check the contributors' other edits to these pages, as they're all recent and they all centre around the MLG. There seems to be over a dozen pages associated with this.

Even if the page is remotely notable, the players are not. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 07:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Might want to separate these...I would definitely vote keep for Johnathan Wendel ~~and Team Carbon~~. However, it's going to be extremely hard to reach consensus on all of the articles this way. You're going to have multiple discussions on numerous articles... Gzkn 08:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Upon further investigation, I'm not so sure about Team Carbon. ~~Also, Colin: are you sure you've added the AfD notice to all the articles? I'm not seeing one for Dave Walsh.~~ Gzkn 09:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment In my relatively short time participating in AfD discussions I have seen a lot of grief come from these mass nominations and not once have I seen one result in a well-organized, thoughtful debate that came to any sort of conclusion. No offense to the nominator. Maybe this is a strategy that needs to be rethought or retired?--Dmz5 08:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would note that the majority of the articles nominated, aside from Johnathan Wendel, have been created solely by one user, in an act that appears to be promotional intention. None of the other persons, or teams, appear notable under WP:BIO at the current time. Perhaps in the future - but right now, this appears to be simply an attempt to drum up publicity for Major League Gaming. Haemo 08:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While I have had some bad experiences with mass nominations as well, I have seen and even started some good, successful ones as well. See e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Captain Willy Peter's Madhouse, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Polar inflation], Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allen Street, or Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Arredi. Recently, we have had some mass nominations of towers (radio towers mainly) which went quite smoothly as well. But the articles have to be fairly similar or very related to have a successful discussion (no matter if the result is delete or keep, like with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Abusaria). Fram 10:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Partial Delete In the electronic sports circuit, the Major League Gaming is regarded as being non-notable, or only minor at best. The same goes for its players and teams. It seems that these articles were mostly created by people from the MLG in order to extend its playerbase onto WP. There are three articles here nominated however, that are not linked to the MLG and that are actually on top professional gamers/teams. These three being Team NoA, Team 3D and Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel. For instance, they have all performed at a top level this year, as shown in 2006 e-Sports World Champions. Therefore, delete the MLG related articles and keep the actual professional gamers and teams Team NoA, Team 3D and Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel. -- DJiTH 12:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

also delete Ken Hoang and Dave Walsh —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Djith (talk • contribs) 16:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Delete all but those identified as significant (e.g. above); treat as PROD if undeletion and separate debate is requested, to avoid trainwreck. Guy (Help!) 13:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do Not Delete Johnathan Wendel. I have no opinion on the rest of the articles, but Wendel should not have been included, as he has a number of computer products bearing his name (I own the Creative Fatal1ty mouse and x-fi, myself.) I don't know ANYTHING about the guy or his career, but if he has major, brand-name products named after him then by default I think he merits inclusion. --Lode Runner
Partial Keep Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel, Team NoA, and Team 3D were notable before MLG and remain so outside of MLG. The rest seem far too recent to be notable. In fact, most of the articles on players would only be a single paragraph without the charts of the team records. Would we include the team records of the Texas Rangers, New York Yankees and Washington Nationals on the page for Alfonso Soriano? So, please keep those 3 and dump the rest. Team Final Boss might be notable, since they are sponsored by Gilbert Arenas and have real salaries, but the article could use significant improvement. --Habap 15:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all Seems like self promotion via Wikipedia. Edison 16:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not be reluctant to make a clear distinction between the MLG articles and non-MLG articles before casting a vote.. -- DJiTH 16:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment After further review, I am going to strike out Jonathan Wendel. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 18:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment What's the motivation for still keeping Team 3D and Team NoA in this list? Obviously they have no connection with any of the other articles.. -- DJiTH 20:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of attacking this, why not cite why they're notable? I have grouped those teams in because they were included in the contributors' contributions. I have no problem with gaming groups, but there needs to be a good reason for why they're notable. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Both Team NoA and Team 3D have won world championships with their Counter-Strike teams. NoA's Counter-Strike team won the World e-Sports Games first season in 2005 (in front of a live audience of thousands and an internet audience of hundreds of thousands), 3D's team won the World Cyber Games Counter-Strike competition in both 2004 and 2005. These are considered two of the most prestigious titles in the competitive gaming circuit. Of course, the articles should be updated to comply with certain standards, but other than that, the subjects are absolutely notable. -- DJiTH 22:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, both the Team NoA and Team 3D articles significantly pre-date the other articles (both being about 2 years old) and contain actual content instead of just the MLG records of the teams. If you review the articles, you will see that these two teams are, in fact, notable. Also, I think they call hunting down any articles edited by another author "Wiki-stalking". --Habap 23:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While it may constitute as "wiki-stalking," when you see an editor making several pages all of which are non-notable, then logic would dictate that you'd see what this guy is up to. I have since gone ahead and struck-out Team NoA and Team 3D. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 07:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Keep at least Wendel. He is the most well-recognized pro-gamer ever. Buttboy666 21:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all since Wendel's been stricken out. None of the other ones are notable. Danny Lilithborne 22:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. Koweja 00:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This really should be separate nominations. Keep Wendel and Team Carbon as they seem notable enough. Koweja 00:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I would, after seeing some of the arguments here, think that everything other than Wendel and Team Carbon should probably be deleted - possibly some of the other teams. However, all of the team members should be deleted. They are absolutely non-notable - and their teams are on the cusp. Haemo 00:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all, will take on good faith the notability of the stricken noms. Deizio talk 14:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There is no possible way that this AFD can end in anything but no consensus. I'd say keep for the major teams such as Team Carbon and Str8 Ripping, and would probably merge the specific players. These are teams with major press and TV coverage, I'm not too familiar with them myself as I'm more of a PC gamer. These teams and the events they compete in will have third party press sources in which to build articles from. Something which general webculture and webcomic rubbish won't. - hahnch e n 17:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all as non-notable cruft. ST47Talk 19:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- See [21] - hahnch e n 21:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that Reuters would fall for that. But that's a whole different discussion :) -- DJiTH 21:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Partial Keep - Keep Tom and Dan Ryan. They have plenty of sources, such as a full front page section B article in a large paper, The Columbus Dispatch (unfortunately, you must have a subscription to read the archives). They won the 2005 World Cyber Games in Halo 2, which according to Wikipedia, is "the largest gaming festival celebrated once a year". A few articles related to that: [22] and they are even mentioned in the BBC News article on the festival, which tries to be mostly focused on the UK participants [23] Here's a nicely done interview on a large gaming website, GotFrag, if you'd like to add more than "just their MLG standings" [24] The argument is that Team 3D is notable, they are former members of Team 3D's Halo 2 team. They appear on the MTV True Life: I'm a Professional Gamer as the people to beat that T-Squared just can't defeat. I may be wrong, but I believe that they have been discussed on the gaming channel G4 multiple times. They are #1 and #2 in the MLG league, which I do not believe is non-notable or minor (what other leagues have a TV spot on USA, a channel carried in most homes across the country?) According to Wikipedia notability standards, they belong. They: "are competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activities that are themselves considered notable" "have a large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following" I could add more sources, more, better arguments, but I hope that will suffice, as I don't want to spend way more time on this than necessary. If it doesn't I will keep adding, keep sourcing, I will locate better sources (there are just the first few I found). I will even personally re-write anything that has to be changed or added if necessary. Thank you! J0lt C0la 01:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all First of all, the nomination is far too large. Second, they (the teams and individuals) play in a league that has its own program on a major US cable network. If they are taken as sportspeople, then they meet WP:BIO by playing at the highest competitive level of their sport. -- Kicking222 02:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep All except for TuLegit;Johnathan Wendel, Team 3D and Team NOA were made months before the rest of the articles were even thought of! Johnathan Wendel has participated in a few MLG events, Team 3D sponsored the best MLG Halo 2 team in 2005. First off all, think about what your really doing - JUST LOOK AT Tsquared's page, this is one of the people you are trying to get rid of!!! If you look at every players page, they have been shown over a dozen times on Television. Most of the players have been featured in an article AND a magazine- the only players I can think of that haven't been featured in both are maybe StrongSide and Cpt. Anarchy, MAYBE! I have put in the rest of the references, cleaned up the first paragraphs in each electronic sports team wikipage and removed all the nonsense. Since all the team pages are clean, all the members should be clean as well. These pages are significant because all the players and teams have been shown on television from November 2006 to the end of December 2006 on USA Network on the weekly basis. I even put a link to episode 5 and 6 on every highly relevant page. They all have been featured in atleast a magazine, article, and some have been on the radio. Top MLG Halo 2 gamers are as significant as any other professional sports athlete.

user:arrashju 20 December 2006 @ 11:11 PM

~~Abstain~~ - On the basis of lazy nomination. Mass listing makes it hard to determine individual notability. The Kinslayer 11:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all, this is already a trainwreck . It is a ridiculous combination of AfDs. Impossible to decide this way, better to close this one and list individually, if you must. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 11:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all - same reasons as above, plus some of the names on the list seem to be notable enough to be kept. The nominator was lazy and completely unconcerned with any sort of article checking. It appears he just listed names he saw links to from a couple of articles. If he can't be bothered dealing with the people one at a time, I can't be bothered finding anything good to say about this appalling AfD. The Kinslayer 11:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Re-list individually - Mass nominations always end up as trainwrecks as no consensus can be made when they are individual articles. Havok (T/C/e/c) 15:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per mass deletion attempt.

Quoting WP:BIO: "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person.¹

- This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries² except for the following:
  - Media reprints of the person's autobiography or self-promotional works.³
  - Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that just mention the person in passing (newspaper articles clearly don't mention the gamers in passing), telephone directory listings, or simple records of births and deaths.⁴"
USA Network scheduled an MLG show to broadcast weekly that features Team Carbon every week from November to December 2006 Vew Team Carbon, Str8 Rippin and Final Boss on USANetwork.com.
- Boost Mobile Major League Gaming Pro Circuit on USA Network - Episode 5
- Boost Mobile Major League Gaming Pro Circuit on USA Network - Episode 6, The Playoffs
On top of that, the vast majority of the players and teams listed on wikipedia have been in multiple newspapers articles and magazines. Tsquared probably has the most listed right now, including radio. Many players were just mentioned in recent newspaper articles including True Karma and Walshy. Please get this garbage AfD off these electronic sports wikipedia articles ASAP! Arrashju 00:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trivial being the publishing media not falling for something that's more of a facade than the actual real thing? Any media publishing on the MLG with the claim that this is 'the real thing' have no idea what they're talking about and just fell for the MLG money-generated PR-machine. As said before, within the global e-Sports circuit, the MLG is regarded as non-notable, only minor at best. This being due to all kinds of factors, such as the competition model, the platforms being chosen, and so on. But most importantly, the lack of competitive nature and skill curve in the games being chosen. These players and teams should not have an article.. Players like Johan "Toxic" Quick, Paul "czm" Nelson, Xiaofeng "Sky" Li, fnatic, Pentagram, etc. should. Wikipedians should not forget being on the lookout for companies like these that are trying to re-invent history.. -- DJiTH 03:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Show me some proof that the "global e-sports circut" considers MLG non-notable, for I've never heard of this. This just sounds like your opinion, which group would you rather push? Even if MLG's "PR machine" is "trying to re-invent history" , they're succeeding, because many people, even non-gamers and casual gamers have heard of MLG, and its members get widespread media attention, making them notable by Wikipedia's standards, which is all that matters. This AfD debate is not about whether you like MLG and their set-ups and gametypes or whether or not they're overshadowing "better" leagues, but whether or not they meet Wikipedia standards to deserve an article, which they clearly do. J0lt C0la 03:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, MLG is only featured on websites and other media that have no target of covering e-Sports. You will mostly see MLG featured in either business media or mainstream media, while both are obviously not knowledgeable of the field of e-Sports (yet). Sure, there will be articles on e-Sports websites, but only sporadicly. Though, you're pointing out an excellent flaw here in the Wikipedia standards, basically that journalists can invent history, or worse, that vampire corporations can use media as a tool to do so. That being said, regard the following sentence from WP:BIO: "Third-party verification from a non-trivial publication outside of publications by sponsors of the sport or activity should be provided to demonstrate that the subject is widely recognized—meeting the first criterion—as performing in a fully professional league or at the highest level.". Now regard that most of the references made in player articles are from the MLG's own website, or from MLG affiliates, like "USA Network". That aside, I'm not involved in any crusade against the MLG, on the contrary even, but I just think that there needs to be some counter-pressure against the way it currently operates and tries to position itself in the media. It's dangerous in a field that is relatively young, is the lastest buzz, and where media have no background in the subject yet. Yes, the MLG should have an article, but the players should not, whereas they have only played in one single, minor, national competition, and only have for a short period of time (apart from some participating in WSVG). Using money as the only motivation just harms the sport and the truth. If you are able to look at the whole field objectively, whether you are related to MLG or not, you will have to come to the conclusion that WCG, ESWC, CPL, WSVG, WEG, KODE and so forth are all more notable than MLG, definitely on a global scale. This all being said, multiple people suggest that this AfD will never reach any consensus and I think so too. So let's leave this for what it is and close the listing. -- DJiTH 14:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm familiar with e-sports. And whereas I consider the CPL and WCG to be of vastly greater importance than childsplay on consoles like the MLG, the mainstream press sees no different. It's not our job to be elitest, no one in e-sports gives a shit about the frag dolls, but I doubt you'll manage to delete that. - hahnch e n 04:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not even comment on this board unless you have a good understanding of the leagues. Why would WCG even take Halo off of their list of competitive games if MLG is so small? In addition, why would any organization broadcast for a non-affiliate anyway? How is USA Network different than any other US cable channel? Don't avoid answering the question directly anymore, why do you believe MLG and their top three teams are non-notable?

Comment, As suggested above, let's go with a general (no consensus) closure of this chaotic multi-listing and individual relisting of all nominated articles. It's the only way. Deizio talk 03:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. alphachimp. 18:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Jackson (electronic sports player)[edit]

As per a previous AfD, I am resubmitting this. This article fails WP:BIO and is related to Major League Gaming. :: Colin Keigher (Talk) 21:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - As per nom. --Bryson 21:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:BIO - and how can playing an electronic game gain one notariety? At all? SkierRMH 22:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment OMG -- don't ever come with this AfD stuff unless you spend the time actually reading the articles because you are very being ignorant right now.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Arrashju (talk • contribs) 22:45, 23 December 2006
Delete per nom. Naconkantari 22:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep Please see Wikipedia:Don't be an ostrich. Just because you have not heard of this person does not mean he is not notable. He passes WP:BIO, first he has been cited by multiple non-trivial independent sources. [25], [26], [27], and there are many more. Second, he is currently ranked as both the national champion for 1v1/FFA and is apart of the number 1 team, Team Carbon. He has been interviewed by USA Network and currently is a star on MLG's pro circuit series on USA Network. The precedence has been set before, see Daigo Umehara, Ken Hoang, and Magic Players, the top ranked players in any genre is notable. I personally have no interest in Magic players, but that doesnt mean I think they should be deleted. Valoem ^talk 20:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — fails WP:BIO. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 06:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Subject has never appeared in any major international competition, nor made any notable achievements and therefore fails WP:BIO. For clarification regarding e-Sports, view e-Sports and 2006 e-Sports World Champions -- DJiTH 23:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Subject has appeared in major national competitions, Major League Gaming, It is the only video game league. CPL and other gaming tournaments only play computer games. MLG is the largest video game competition. Ben Jackson is the current champion. We are talking about Halo 2 the largest console first person shooter. This is notable. Much moreso than Street Fighter Valoem ^talk 05:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[1] ttp://www.esreality.com/?a=post&id=1590807

[2] ttp://www.sk-gaming.com/content/17720-Immaculate_Cypher_wins_ESWC_Masters

[3] ttp://digitallife.ggl.com/index.php?controller=News&method=article&id=2942

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