Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Steve Biko/archive1

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Comments from Sarah SV[edit]

Hi Midnightblueowl, I've just started reading this. A couple of observations.

First, there are a lot of caps. For example, I can see that Black Consciousness Movement is capitalized by most sources (although sometimes it's Black Consciousness movement), but should "black consciousness" as an ideology not be lower case? Why "the Protests of 1968"? "Students' Representative Council": was that its name? These are just examples.

Second, the writing is a bit laboured. Ideas are repeated and the writing isn't tight. For an example of the former, the second paragraph notes that he developed the idea of black consciousness, so there's no need for the final paragraph to repeat that he's the father of black consciousness. Similarly, the final lead sentence says he was an icon of resistance to apartheid, then repeats that he was an ideologically influential figure in fighting it. It would help if you could go through the article and remove anything else like that.

Example of wordiness: "There, the black African members had a meeting at which they decided to hold a further conference in December to discuss the issue of forming an independent black student group." That could be: "The black African members decided to hold a further conference in December to discuss forming an independent black student group." SarahSV (talk) 06:21, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin: Thanks for your comments. When it comes to the capitalisation of words, my general approach has been to follow the RS. "Black Consciousness" is consistently capitalised in those sources, although I have ensured that "Movement" is consistently lower-case in the article. I believe that "Students' Representative Council" was the official name of the group, hence the use of capitalisation in this instance. The term "father of Black Consciousness" is an honorific (a bit like Mandela's "Father of the Nation"), hence why I think it important to include that in the lede alongside the mention of Biko's actions in establishing the Black Consciousness movement. I see your point regarding duplication in the final sentence of the lede and have removed it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Midnight, re: duplication and the need to tighten the writing, the above were just examples. Anything similar should be fixed too.
Re: caps, "father" and "students' representative council" should be lower case. As for "Black Consciousness Movement", most sources I've looked at capitalize all three. Hart's Rules says (p. 98): "Generic terms are capitalized in the names of cultural movements and schools derived from proper names", and offers Oxford Movement and Ashcan School as examples.
Articles about movements: anti-globalization movement, feminist movement, free culture movement, sex-positive movement, but African-American Civil Rights Movement (1954–1968), Black Power movement, Black Consciousness Movement, Landless Peoples Movement, Rural People's Movement, Sex Workers' Rights Movement, Umbrella Movement. SarahSV (talk) 21:55, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Slim. I've changed all instances of "Black Consciousness movement" to "Black Consciousness Movement" and pruned the prose throughout the article. The "Students' Representative Council" is capitalised in the source cited (Mangcu) so I think it best to follow the example of the RS there. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:36, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just for the record, I've been over the prose again myself. Between us I think we've tightened it a good bit. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 06:55, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SlimVirgin: Pinging you because I'm not certain that you've seen this: as above, both MBO and I have been over the prose in an effort to address your concerns. Vanamonde (talk) 08:56, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Vanamonde93, thanks for the ping. I'll have another read through the article. SarahSV (talk) 19:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Midnightblueowl and Vanamonde93, thanks for doing more work on it. It's reading nicely. I've read it through once, and I'm making my way through it again.
  • Lead: Is the last sentence a bit of a damp squib? If it's to be used, Great South Africans should be linked.
  • I've been wondering the same thing. I've boldly switched it for Mandela's quote. If you disagree, MBO, please feel free to revert. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early life: 1946–66": All the names make it confusing. I would use parents' names once, and mother and father thereafter, unless doing so is awkward.
  • I've switched two instances, and also reordered a little: I do think switching the rest would be awkward. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early student activism: 1966–68": I added a blockquote, but please feel free to remove it. (Please undo any of my edits that you don't like.) I felt the explanation about white racism was worth adding.
  • Personally I like the quote, but I'm a little worried that it lacks the context to be understood. I'd be okay with leaving it in or with removing it. MBO? Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Black People's Convention and Biko's banning: 1971–77": this section is very long. Split around meeting with Woods? Also confusing chronology: "In December 1975, attempting to circumvent the restrictions"; next para: "In 1973, Biko enrolled for a law degree".
  • I've tried to reorganize this more thematically, including creating two subsections. Feel free to modify/revert. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Death: 1977": Should more detail be added? Including that he died on a mat on the floor of a cell, after being removed from a hospital bed.
  • "Response to death and investigation": The article said (until I changed it) that the South African Medical and Dental Council "undertook proceedings for" the medical professionals; I assume it should be "against"? And can you say more about the death being a "much-discussed case study"? It isn't clear what that means.
  • The change seems to be correct. I've rephrased and added detail from the Bucher source; let me know if that is too much or still unclear. Vanamonde (talk) 10:43, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lots of red links. Make sure they comply with "could plausibly sustain an article"; see WP:REDLINK.
  • Trimmed a couple. On the whole , though, there's probably two few redlinks; the activists are all likely to have received substantive coverage in scholarship of the period, and the institutions generally fall into categories presumed notable. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quote boxes: These are wider than the images, which makes the article look untidy. I would make them the same size as the nearby images, and increase the font size.
  • I've reduced the width somewhat: I'd rather not increase font size because especially with the width change, they are already very long. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Width is better. I added some padding, then self-reverted, but I think it does look better with some. SarahSV (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe for a short quote, but concerned about length. Vanamonde (talk) 09:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The guideline also says the abbreviation is acceptable in places where space is at a premium, and section titles seem to fall under this exception; I don't think there's any other examples. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
*Best to avoid this construction: "anti-apartheid activist Robert Sobukwe": I've added "the" but there may be others.
  • Can you explain why? It's a construction that does not seem ungrammatical, and is frequently used; indeed it seems less formal than "The anti-apartheid activist". Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dropping the definite article is journalese, used especially in the US. SarahSV (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmmm. Not certain I agree, because it feels more natural to me and I read a lot of stuff that isn't US-based journalism; but I can see the point, perhaps. I've checked through once, if you spot more let me know. Vanamonde (talk) 06:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a minor issue, so if you strongly prefer that style, it's fine, but in the UK it's supposed to be avoided, and I assume that South African English follows BrEng. For example, the Guardian style guide mentions it. See "'prime minister David Cameron' syndrome" and the Sheffield United example below it. SarahSV (talk) 21:06, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SarahSV (talk) 00:32, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Break 1[edit]
  • When I last copy-edited, I removed a few "he said ... he said", but there are some left, e.g. "Biko saw white racism ... He argued that under apartheid ... He thus argued that in dominating ... He believed white individuals ... He noted that white South Africans ..."
  • Not sure what the alternative is; much of his notability is for his ideas, after all. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's better not to repeat that construction in consecutive sentences. For example, I removed one in the lead. It said: "He was strongly opposed to ... He was also frustrated ..." I changed it to: "Strongly opposed to the apartheid system of racial segregation and white-minority rule in South Africa, Biko was frustrated that ..." SarahSV (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh I see it's the repetition you're concerned about. I've trimmed a little; let me know if there's further instances that are a problem.
  • I went to remove "respective" from "He believed in the cultural fusing of the best respective experiences of the black and white communities ...", then realized that I didn't really know what the sentence meant.
  • In the "Influence" section, it's not clear why these views are important: "Social scientists Ahluwalia and Zegeye referred to him as ... Music journalist Dorian Lynskey characterised Biko as ... Scholar of communication studies Johann de Wet characterised Biko as ... while art historian Shannen L. Hill noted that he was ..." Also, it should be "The music journalist X", or "X, a music journalist". But I would remove all that and summarize the views in your own words.
  • SV, we're in a bit of a bind here. If we present the views in Wikipedia's voice (which might be my first instinct, given the reliability of the sources) it's easy to be accused of bias. If we say "Scholars have said", we're asked "which scholars". If we specify which scholars, then we've added too much detail. What would you suggest? Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It has a "talking heads" feel to it. I think it could be tightened like this without really losing anything. Just a suggestion. SarahSV (talk) 01:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I saw that, but given the varied portrayals of him, I do think the different descriptions are necessary as long as they are saying different things. I've trimmed one statement because it seemed redundant. It sounds nothing like the Talking Heads from over here ;) Vanamonde (talk) 09:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It isn't clear why sources with no obvious connection have been listed. For example, "Music journalist Dorian Lynskey characterised Biko as having become the first icon of the anti-apartheid movement upon his death." Writing is a bit laboured, and it's sourced to a Guardian article by Lynskey about protest songs. Expanded, it would make more sense (explaining that the song made Biko an icon, just as Mandela's somg did for him). But without that, you wonder why the source is included. Ditto with the others. SarahSV (talk) 04:08, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay. I've added a summary sentence, trimmed another, and tweaked a third. Do take a look. Vanamonde (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've trimmed some more and moved some quotes from Nelson Mandela into that section. SarahSV (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SarahSV (talk) 05:52, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Break 2[edit]
  • The death section: This should be expanded a little, because it doesn't really convey the cruelty of it. There should be a few words more in the lead too. Does the section use the most authoritative sources on what happened? I've left an invisible note about whether it was 700 kilometres or miles; I see several sources saying the latter.
  • You were right about the distance; Pretoria to Port Elizabeth is at least 1000km. Fixed. I've also added some detail. MBO, perhaps you could add more if needed from the sources I do not have, like Mangcu. Vanamonde (talk) 09:54, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for fixing that and adding details. It should also say that he was left to die on a mat on the floor of the cell, after being removed from a hospital bed (writing from memory). Can the inquest be used as a source, instead of secondary sources? Does Bernstein contain the text of the inquest? I can only see snippet view. SarahSV (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources in general: I checked a few of the sources as I was reading, and all looks well. Midnightblueowl, have you personally checked every single source?
  • I checked every source for reliability when I went over this before bringing it to FAC; much of the content building was done by MBO, though. Vanamonde (talk) 09:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry, Vanamonde93, I've just noticed you're a co-nom. When I directed that question to MBO only, it wasn't meant to imply that I didn't care whether you had checked them! So long as every source has been seen by one of you, that's fine. SarahSV (talk) 20:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • SV, that's quite alright; MBO did do a large majority of the content building work. My work was mostly polishing the prose, and the sources and structure in a few places. I checked the content in the sources I used, which were a good few, and the reliability of all of them; I did not check content in the others, so your question was a valid one. Vanamonde (talk) 04:50, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: I added a couple of things from Woods, but I had to use the 1991 edition. The page numbers may not match the edition in the article, so that needs to be checked/fixed (or the text I added can be removed). I wrote it as Woods 1978 to match the other sources. They are (death section) p. vi. to support room 619 and that he was interrogated for 22 hours handcuffed and in shackles, and chained to a grille; and (Early student activism) pp. 153–154 for the blockquote (diff).
  • His name: Several sources, including the foreword of his I Write What I Like, use Bantu as the middle name: "Stephen Bantu Biko".
  • Please feel free to revert anything I've changed or added, because I know that new people adding things during a review can be a nuisance. If you undo something that I feel ought to stay, I'll say so. Otherwise, I won't mind.
SarahSV (talk) 21:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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