Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/2007 Archive 4
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March Days Mediation Request
After several months of calm, there is a new edit conflict brewing on this page. I think an involvement of a 3rd party mediator at Talk:March Days, which was an experience on this page before, would be very helpful to bring about a consensus. Thanks. Atabek 04:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Several articles
If the dispute affects several articles, how would I go about steps 2 and 3. The dispute is between me (primarily) and User:Bandurist (primarily), and the affected articles are:
- Kuban Cossacks
- Ukrainians in Kuban
- Balachka
- and probably more related directly or indirectly this way or the other such as Kuban Cossack Chorus, Kuban People's Republic, Ukrainian language and so on.
The idea is that just how Russian or Ukrainian is that region, and the people, to whom I belong to are. Most of the research originating from Russia, including the Kuban themselves, as well census figures show clear support for the former, but Bandurist has been arguing, using semi-OR methods and some revisionist semi-nationalist Ukrainian sources of supporting the latter. After some diplomacy attempts I raised the case to WP:AN/I due to Bandurists violations of WP:OWN and WP:NPOV.
Successrate
Is there any feedback mechanism to see how successfull the MedCab is? It might be nice for evaluation purposes, to be able to see how many cases the MedCab succesfully mediated in the last period of time, and how many cases were closed in that period in total, and maybe how long the average case has taken. Martijn Hoekstra 16:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- None in place as far as I'm aware - but by looking at the last edits on case pages it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a general idea of how things ended up, I would think. Cowman109Talk 22:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- There was some discussion about this in January. I would like to add that, as we're a cabal, not all of our mediation work is visible. In my experience, I found the invisible work more effective. — Sebastian 00:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No open cases
For at least a week, we have had no open cases. This is quite a change from 6 months ago, when there were about a dozen open cases. I don't think that this is because there are no conflicts. Why is that? Is that a problem? And what can we do about it? — Sebastian 08:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, but things have been unusually slow for MedCom as well. Looking at the edit history of WP:3O, it appears as though that avenue of dispute resolution is also somewhat less-used than it was previously. So, it appears on a casual examination that dispute resolution as a whole is experiencing varying drop-offs in use. I can't offer anything but speculation as to why this is, or what should be done about it. I'm letting the members of MedCom know about the discussion, in case they have anything to add. I will also leave a note at WT:3O. Perhaps by inviting more discussion, we can better explore the issue and possible solutions. Vassyana 16:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- I had noticed that our open tasks box was stubbier than normal. However, what I also saw was period with only one pending case (like right now) or even none at all, and this lasted for a week, and then we suddenly got three or four cases in twenty four hours, and they've since been rejected or accepted, and now it's back to none or one. Probably just natural variation. Daniel 16:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Requests for Arbitration is now at its lowest level of use for a long while - in fact, in waiting to Clerk a case, I had to wait over 2 weeks. Perhaps there is simply less disputes in the encyclopedia... or the disputes are simply being handled without third-party intervention. Either way, I don't think it is a cause for concern, although I would stop short at saying it is a good thing, as we don't yet know the complete circumstances. Something to be watched... Anthøny 20:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- I had noticed that our open tasks box was stubbier than normal. However, what I also saw was period with only one pending case (like right now) or even none at all, and this lasted for a week, and then we suddenly got three or four cases in twenty four hours, and they've since been rejected or accepted, and now it's back to none or one. Probably just natural variation. Daniel 16:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
DBZ near deletions
A very long debate has sprung up here Talk:Dragon_Ball_Z, and so far all attempts to resolve matters have utterly failed.
A short synopsis is that one user has taken it upon himself to remove all information that he considers to be "unsourced". However, there is no reason behind it. There was no discussion about this being necessary, no one even talked about it before he started wiping out large sections of multiple articles. He just posted a message one day stating that if people didn't add sources he'd delete everything without a reference. Even though he has stated that to NOT be his intent, removing almost all information without a ref tag is the net result of his actions. This has reduced many of the articles to stub status, from being several pages.
He regulary describes his actions as enforcing wikipedia policy. But he seems to think that guidelines and essays are trumped by policy and doesn't understand that they exist to explain how to implement policy. He has also refused to listen to anyone who disagrees, and regulary treats other editors with disdain. And refuses to let other editors change things back without adding a specific reference for every tiny change.--Marhawkman 12:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- While things are a bit informal around here, I would suggest following the instructions for filing a mediation request. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. — Sebastian 18:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Is that good?--Marhawkman 12:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Um... the Mediator left, and we haven't actually worked anything out yet.--Marhawkman (talk) 20:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Is that good?--Marhawkman 12:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you.--Marhawkman (talk) 12:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Mediator with OTRS access needed
Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-11-17 Werner Erhard has been requested for Werner Erhard. Since there is an ongoing OTRS legal complaint re: Werner Erhard, at ticket #2007051510011812, we need an OTRS volunteer either to mediate or to assist with the mediation. Please see Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal for general information, and feel free to send me e-mail for any specific questions. — Sebastian 04:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'll assist with this one. Sebastian, see your email. Cheers, Daniel 06:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Coordinator
I am on indefinite wikibreak, so I have removed myself from the list of coordinators. If anyone has questions, or if I could help out on a case, please drop me an email and I'll offer what advice and assistance I can. Be well all! Vassyana (talk) 07:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to hear this; especially after I got good advice from you. Your help here is surely appreciated. Good luck with your other endeavours! — Sebastian 08:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I need help.
I've got this edit nazi (Omi Omni Alfador) following me around everywhere. I tried to insert a section describing the socionics theory of creativity, which attributes creative expression to psychological functions, into the creativity article. He made the judgement that "this is absolutely not conclusive", despite the existence of a genuine institute for the study of socionics in Kiev, and several dozen independent, licensed authorities besides. Apparently Mr. "Alfador" thinks that he can restrain awareness on psychology topics he doesn't like. As it is, the creativity article says a lot about the Western view, and very little about the Eastern side of psychology.
It is frightening to think that someone so willfully ignorant as Mr. Alfador can acheive a position of respect and prestige at a place like this. Anyway, how do I get moderation for this? Tcaudilllg (talk) 23:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please follow the steps of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. — Sebastian 20:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Some action needed
This from open cases:
- 2007-11-11 Dragon Ball Z — Mediator(s): SJP
- 2007-11-11 Maitreya Project — Mediator(s): SJP
Combined with this: User:SJP Probably means that some action should be taken on the cases. Should they be relisted, or closed, or something else? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 15:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've relisted the Dragon Ball Z case and closed the Maitreya Project case which was succesfully mediated by SJP. Addhoc (talk) 18:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
We do not impose sanctions or make judgments
This mediator has imposed a decision with this edit. I would respectfully request that the true result of the mediation is recorded. Aatomic1 (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Need Help?
Hi;
I was previously a cabalist under the username Geo.plrd. For various reasons, I am not going to try mediating again yet, but was wondering if their are any administrative tasks I could help with.
Respectfully;
Geoff Plourde (talk) 06:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your kind offer. Currently, we hardly have any cases, so there isn't much work necessary on MedCab.
- Personally, I am more active with some clerical tasks for the ArbCom elections right now - maybe you might be interested in helping there, too? One area that needs some more administrative attention is Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2007/Summary table. — Sebastian 23:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
- On second thought, seeing that you have several Working Wikipedian's barnstars, you may be the ideal person for a project I've always wanted to do. We keep getting questions about our success rate and I always feel at a loss, because we don't have any information about that. I am aware that we had a lot of failures, too, but they are important, too, because I firmly believe that we need to learn from our mistakes. Maybe such a project could locate and remedy areas where there may be room for improvement.
- Almost a year ago, I conducted a small research project, which started out as a search for success stories we could learm from MedCom[1]. It turned out, only 2 of 99 cases had a documented success.[2] I have always been wondering what a similar research would yield for MedCab. For us, that information is even harder to see because we are less formal. You would probably have to look at the history of the articles in question and see if the conflict was actually solved or restarted after some time. Since we have over 500 closed cases, taking on all of them would be a huge endeavour. In order to get a statistically relevant sample, I would propose that you only look at the ones that were opened on a certain day of the month, say the 15th. (You see this date in the case name.)
- Would you like to do something like that? — Sebastian 06:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Of course! It will be interesting to see what the success rate is. (Cross your fingers, for a higher rate than medcom) Geoff Plourde 16:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- That research took place before I was interested in mediation, and unfortunately I never got to take part in the discussion. However, I did some statistics from the last four archives of WP:RFM (dating back twelve months), and these were the results: link. Far better than 2 out of 99 :) Cheers, Daniel 03:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- Impressive! Lets see if we can beat it ;) Geoff Plourde 05:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- Of course! It will be interesting to see what the success rate is. (Cross your fingers, for a higher rate than medcom) Geoff Plourde 16:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- 728 casesGeoff Plourde 16:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that mediation Church of Scientology Moscow versus Russia is still open but has been settled a long time ago. The reason might be that mediator user:Alpta didn't participate in Wikipedia since September(shortly after opening the case). I suggest to close it if possible. -- Stan talk 21:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The basic history is that after the Zaporozhian Host was dissolved by Catherine II of Russia in 1775 (long before Ukrainians were considered a separate nation), most Cossacks chose to retain service and the Black Sea Cossack Host was formed. In 1792 the recieved a direct permission from the Empress to move the Kuban land of Russia. That said, makes many nationalist Ukrainians believe that the modern Kuban Cossacks are ethnically Ukrainians, it's like saying that Black Jamaicans are Sierra Lenonians. Now whilst they are not entirely wrong, whoever one cannot consider the residents of Massachussets to be ethnically British, just because originally they were settled by the English settlers. However that is the Point of View that Bandurist is actively pushing. --Kuban Cossack 12:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good question! This situation is actually quite common, so I added it to our step II. Has anyone contested the article name "Kuban Cossacks"? If not then I'd just add the template first there, and then copy it to the other talk pages. The rest of your message here seems like a good candidate for the "What's going on" section. — Sebastian 00:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Preconditions
I just learned the hard way that it is pointless to even start a mediation if the requestor is not willing to cooperate with the other party in order to reach a solution. In my impression, that is the most important precondition. I think this is more important than some of the other points listed under "preconditions". I just replaced the fourfold mention of "need discussion" with the precondition "You must have have been following Wikipedia:Dispute resolution", because that condition belongs there and is much better described there.
I would also like to make the following changes:
- Cut "If you need outside opinions, you can ...". This is already covered in WP:DR
- Replace the three repetitions of "Mediation is purely voluntary" with: "Mediation only works when all parties cooperate. Therefore, you need to be willing to cooperate, and you need to write your case in such a way that makes it easy for the other party to cooperate, too.
- Cut "All parties must be willing to assume good faith." There are several parts of this precondition:
- "The other side must be willing to AGF": How is the requestor supposed to know what the other side is willing to assume?
- "You must be willing to AGF": This is covered by the condition "you must be willing to cooperate". Moreover, who would not say "I'm willing"? (That reminds me of the form foreigners have to fill out on entering the US: "Check here if you enter this country if you plan to commit terrorism".)
- I would not want to reduce it to "You must AGF", either: Often, requestors may be willing to cooperate, but they just can't see for the life of them any good faith explanations for the other party's actions. I don't see why we would want to exclude such cases; personally, I find these cases most rewarding; I find it is worth our best effort to help such people see a way out of their dilemma.
Are there any objections? — Sebastian 02:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Done. I also added "Don't worry if the other side is not cooperating yet; mediators will help you with that", because I feel that's precisely our task; we can't shy away from those cases! — Sebastian 05:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
New mediator on Crown Heights Riot case
The current mediator on the Crown Heights Riot case is Leonmon, who is a new editor. I'm not sure if he is completely new to the project, or is a returning experienced editor with a new account. However, provided he doesn't turn out to be a Geo.plrd sock or something, this shouldn't be a problem. If any experienced mediators are available to provide guidance, that would be greatly appreciated. Addhoc 17:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- This mediation looks pretty complicated to me, and the mediator has taken on yet another complicated case, where the parties are concerned that the mediator may not have enough experience. I believe that it is extremely important that both parties can trust the mediator, so I will take a look at this case and see if I can get an impression how Leonmon is doing. — Sebastian 06:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- OK, I did look at it, and I'm truly impressed! We should all do our best to assist this experienced mediator, who is really a godsent! (See also User talk:Leonmon) — Sebastian 19:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments Sebastian. At the moment, Revolving Bugbear (formerly Che Nuevara) is also mediating the Crown Heights Riot case.--Addhoc 23:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Closing of the Sterling Management Systems case
The Sterling Management Systems case has been relisted on opentasks, because of concerns about lack of progress. Addhoc (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
The Sterling Management Systems case has been closed, and Leonmon has made a statement that blames the parties for a failure to make any progress. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't entirely agree with his assessment. I think we should suggest that Leonmon should not take any more cases while the Crown Heights Riot case is still open. Addhoc (talk) 16:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- The first part of the mediator statement, written at 05:21, seems appropriate to me. The second part, written at 15:27, contains indeed some accusations that should not just be stated without any proof. I think, however, that this is forgivable since it appears that the parties did not follow up on the compromise path, which the mediator professionallly prepared, but rather started insulting each other. (See archive.) In such a situation, anybody would be frustrated, and it is only human that that frustration shows in the statement. Moreover, this mediator is new and may not be familiar with our custom to back up everything with diffs. I think it is the task of a MedCab coordinator to explain such things to a mediator and ask them to provide these diffs, rather than jumping to conclusions. It is part of WP:AGF to assume that people can learn, and to give them the chance to do so. I will do so now. — Sebastian 22:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
- I appreciate your comments Sebastian. I was indeed too harsh with my closing comments so I reworded them to make them less harsh. I'm learning the WIKIcustoms quickly.
--Leonmon (talk) 01:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
MedCab coordination gone wrong
I believe the purpose of MedCab is to facilitate mediation. It is the duty of a MedCab coordinator to assist and mentor mediators, especially new ones. User:Addhoc abandoned this duty by repeatedly attacking a well-intended mediator with unwarranted accusations on Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-11-07 Sterling Management Systems.
In the last 8 days, I have tried to talk with User:Addhoc about this in numerous e-mails, but unfortunately did not effect any change in this inappropriate behavior. Sadly, I therefore need to report this failure here. I am especially appalled at this since the mediator, User:Leonmon, has done an excellent, professional job in preparing questions and suggestions to parties, and I can not understand why a MedCab coordinator would want to risk loosing such a dedicated mediator. I also think it hurts MedCab if one coordinator is not open to the concerns of another coordinator. — Sebastian 21:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sebastian, for the record, Leonmon has done two mediations on Wikipedia. You don't seem to grok that during Leonmon's period of absense, User:Misou disrupted the mediation with repeated incivility. That is the "dagger in the chest". That is what destroyed the mediation. Am I going to have to repeat that to you again?--Fahrenheit451 23:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Timeline
- 05:14, November 18: Mediator announces absence for “couple days” because of an office move[3]
- 19:37, November 21: User:Fahrenheit451 complains that “Leonmon abandoned mediation”[4].
- 20:27, November 21: Sebastian explains that an absence of a few days is normal here. (See discussion at User talk:SebastianHelm#Comment on User:Leonmon. There was also an e-mail discussion which I will be happy to disclose if User:Fahrenheit451 has no objection.) In fact, it is not even normal, but it is very minor compared to User:Addhoc’s practice of leaving cases for much longer periods of time, as e.g. in Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-06-13 Sardaka, where ey left the parties discussing alone for five weeks (from June 13[5] to July 19[6]) without any explanation or notice on the case page.
- SebastianHelm, our email exchange was private. You do not have my permission to reveal any of my emails.--Fahrenheit451 22:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Of course, that's why I'm asking. Thank you for your reply. — Sebastian 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- SebastianHelm, our email exchange was private. You do not have my permission to reveal any of my emails.--Fahrenheit451 22:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- 23:41, November 21: Sebastian notifies the mediator on talk page about the discussion.
- 03:54, November 22: Mediator replies by explaining the situation (both on the case page and on User talk:SebastianHelm#Comment on User:Leonmon.)[7]
- 17:53, November 23: User:Addhoc resets the project without explanation in the edit summary[8]
- 18:36, November 23: User:Addhoc kicks the mediator out of the mediation without explanation in the edit summary [9]
- Addhoc removed Leonmon's name from the info box. There was no documentation that he "kicked" Leonmon off the case, so that is a false accusation.--Fahrenheit451 23:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- 19:12, November 23: User:Addhoc reopens the case without explanation in the edit summary [10]
- 20:10, November 23: User:Stan En leaves the mediation with the comment “no more interest in this "kindergarden"”. This is directly following User:Addhoc’s unexplained changes to the case
, but it is unclear whether these changes are what triggered User:Stan En's step.- Omitted data:StanEn made a couple statements as to why he left that were quite clear and Addhoc actions were not mentioned or alluded to.--Fahrenheit451 23:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- 07:04, November 26: Mediator posts a a professional list of pertinent questions and suggestions[11]
- 21:23, November 27: User:Fahrenheit451 leaves the mediation without addressing any of the mediator’s questions.[12]
Omitted data:Fahrenheit451 had already informed SebastianHelm that the mediator should be replaced several times prior to asking the mediation be terminated.--Fahrenheit451 22:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Findings according to User:SebastianHelm
- The accusation “abandoned” is patently inappropriate
- User:Fahrenheit451 repeated this accususation several times since ey brought it up on User talk:SebastianHelm#Comment on User:Leonmon, despite my explanations there. It appears User:Addhoc is copying User:Fahrenheit451’s groundless accusation verbatim without checking the facts. I had pointed User:Addhoc to that discussion by e-mail last week, so User:Addhoc had the occasion to inform emself that it was inappropriate back then already, especially since I reminded User:Addhoc of the Sardaka case. This term has become even more inappropriate when the mediator replied a few hours later, and patently inappropriate after the mediator provided a professional list of pertinent questions and compromise suggestions.
- The accusation “abandoned” is disingenuous
- It is obviously disingenuous for User:Addhoc to accuse a new mediator of abandoning a case when an announced absence is overstayed by a day or two, while User:Addhoc emself stays away many weeks on unexplained absence, leaving parties alone with their discusssion. We don’t have a “quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi” standard here.
- Sebastian, please define your words carefully. I think you have wrongfully hurled an accusation at Addhoc. While Leonmon did not desert the case, he did give up control of the mediation to a disruptive user. Also, you are comparing two entirely different circumstances of mediation which is a fallacy.--Fahrenheit451 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- The accusation “[the mediator] didn't make any effort to mediate the discussion” is patently wrong
- In fact, between User:Addhoc’s unexplained changes to the case and User:Fahrenheit451’s leaving the project, the mediator was the only one contributing to the case page.
- User:Fahrenheit451 abandoned the project
- Instead of replying to any of the questions, User:Fahrenheit451's first action on this page was to leave the mediation.
Falsehood:Fahrenheit451's first actions were to get a response from Leonmon when User:Misou was repeatedly uncivil, then remedy the mediator's absense by getting a substitute mediator.--Fahrenheit451 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Proposed resolution
In order to solve this amicably, I propose the following actions:
- Both User:Fahrenheit451 and User:Addhoc to publicly apologize to User:Leonmon for their unwarranted and unfounded accusations.
- User:Fahrenheit451 to explain why ey left the project after the mediator posted the questions and proposals.
- User:Addhoc to explain why ey repeated User:Fahrenheit451’s false accusations without checking the facts.
— Sebastian 21:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of MedCab, I also would like the two coordinators to commit to take each other's concerns seriously and to respond to e-mails quickly. Moreover, I would like to remind that, in a mail about a week ago, I had proposed two possible ways to prevent situations like this from happening:
- I gave User:Addhoc my phone number because, in my experience, a combination of e-mail and phone works best in resolving misunderstandings. I am aware that User:Addhoc lives on a different continent, but I am willing to make long distance phone calls. But for that, I would of course need User:Addhoc's number.
- I proposed to ask a mutual friend to mediate between us, and did not receive a response to that.
Please, Addhoc, respond to my requests. MedCab works best when the coordinators coordinate their work. — Sebastian 21:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
"20:10, November 23: User:Stan En leaves the mediation with the comment “no more interest in this "kindergarden"”. This is directly following User:Addhoc’s unexplained changes to the case, but it is unclear whether these changes are what triggered User:Stan En's step." Again, as I already explained ! I did not leave due to any mediator's action;neither Addhoc's nor Leonmen's! My edit comment(kindergarden) was inappropriate and I apologize for that. I mainly contributed on the discussion page of the mediation project(SMS) and didn't even notice the changes made by Addhoc. -- Stan talk 22:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for the clarification. I struck the passage from "but it is unclear ..." on. — Sebastian 23:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- SebastianHelm knows very well why I left the mediation and I repeatedly advised him I would if the mediator did not change in the case.--Fahrenheit451 22:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, User:Fahrenheit451, I do not know why you left the mediation. Your repeated accusation that the mediator "abandoned" the case can not be a reason since it is not supported by facts, as clearly evident from items #10 and 11 in the timeline above. I asked you in several e-mails if you had any other reason, but you refused to provide any. I will respect your wish to keep our conversation private and not quote you, but I have to ask you to disclose here in public your reasons for (1) asking the mediator to close the case and (2) leaving the case. — Sebastian 23:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
User:SebastianHelm, perhaps we are operating off of different definitions of "Abandon". The one I use is: "To give up to another's control or mercy". You may be thinking in terms of "forsake or desert". Indeed, User:Misou disrupted the mediation with repeated incivility. By Leonmon not intervening, he effectively gave up the mediation to another's control. No evidence Leonmon deserted the mediation, but perhaps we are using the same word for different actions.--Fahrenheit451 23:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Counter proposed resolution
In order to resolve this justly, I propose the following actions:
- SebastianHelm publicly apologize to User:Addhoc for false accusations of abandoning the coordination process.
- SebastianHelm explain publicly why he distorted the facts of this mediation and turned a simple matter of substituting the mediator into what appears to be a persecution of User:Addhoc.--Fahrenheit451 22:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I did not accuse "User:Addhoc ... of abandoning the coordination process" but I stated that ey abandoned eir duty as a MedCab coordinator to help mediators. Maybe the word "abandoned" was not the best choice, and I herewith change that to "neglected". Please provide references for your accusation of distortion of facts. Please also provide your reason for your demand for "substituting the mediator". — Sebastian 23:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
"I did not accuse "User:Addhoc ... of abandoning the coordination process" but I stated that ey abandoned eir duty as a MedCab coordinator to help mediators." I would say both subjects are tantamount. I think you are quibbling. My evidence for distortion of facts is above under omitted data and falsehood.--Fahrenheit451 23:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Fahrenheit451 and Stan, thanks for your comments. The last comment by Leonmon on the case page was to thank me for offering advice, and in this context, I'm not sure continuing this discussion is necessary. Addhoc 00:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
MedCab coordination gone wrong
The comments in the box below were written by User:SebastianHelm and solely represent his opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fahrenheit451 (talk • contribs) 04:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of MedCab, I also would like the two coordinators to commit to take each other's concerns seriously and to respond to e-mails quickly. Moreover, I would like to remind that, in a mail about a week ago, I had proposed two possible ways to prevent situations like this from happening:
- I gave User:Addhoc my phone number because, in my experience, a combination of e-mail and phone works best in resolving misunderstandings. I am aware that User:Addhoc lives on a different continent, but I am willing to make long distance phone calls. But for that, I would of course need User:Addhoc's number.
- I proposed to ask a mutual friend to mediate between us, and did not receive a response to that.
Please, Addhoc, respond to my requests. MedCab works best when the coordinators coordinate their work. — Sebastian 21:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Administrative notice
Because of persistent disruption, in particular of the numbered list that destroyed the numbering, the sections that have been prepared by the uninvolved Mediation Cabal coordinator have been marked with a green background to prevent this from happening again. — Sebastian 05:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Discussion
Re:20:10, November 23
"20:10, November 23: User:Stan En leaves the mediation with the comment “no more interest in this "kindergarden"”. This is directly following User:Addhoc’s unexplained changes to the case, but it is unclear whether these changes are what triggered User:Stan En's step." Again, as I already explained ! I did not leave due to any mediator's action;neither Addhoc's nor Leonmen's! My edit comment(kindergarden) was inappropriate and I apologize for that. I mainly contributed on the discussion page of the mediation project(SMS) and didn't even notice the changes made by Addhoc. -- Stan talk 22:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for the clarification. I struck the passage from "but it is unclear ..." on. — Sebastian 23:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- You are right, it isn't that important and distracts from the issue. I will remove it. — Sebastian 06:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Why User:Fahrenheit451 left the mediation
SebastianHelm knows very well why I left the mediation and I repeatedly advised him I would if the mediator did not change in the case.--Fahrenheit451 22:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, User:Fahrenheit451, I do not know why you left the mediation. Your repeated accusation that the mediator "abandoned" the case can not be a reason since it is not supported by facts, as clearly evident from items #9 and 10 in the timeline above. I asked you in several e-mails if you had any other reason, but you refused to provide any. I will respect your wish to keep our conversation private and not quote you, but I have to ask you to disclose here in public your reasons for (1) asking the mediator to close the case and (2) leaving the case. — Sebastian 23:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Sebastian, for the record, Leonmon has done two mediations on Wikipedia. You don't seem to grok that during Leonmon's period of absense, User:Misou disrupted the mediation with repeated incivility. That is the "dagger in the chest". That is what destroyed the mediation. Am I going to have to repeat that to you again?--Fahrenheit451 23:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Leonmon returned to the case on November 22 and called for civility. Please explain why you left the case 5 (five!) days later. — Sebastian 06:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- Because I considered the mediation tainted after Misou's unrestrained incivility. I edited the page to withdraw some time after I decided to withdraw.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 03:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Definitions of "Abandon"
User:SebastianHelm, perhaps we are operating off of different definitions of "Abandon". The one I use is: "To give up to another's control or mercy". You may be thinking in terms of "forsake or desert". Indeed, User:Misou disrupted the mediation with repeated incivility. By Leonmon not intervening, he effectively gave up the mediation to another's control. No evidence Leonmon deserted the mediation, but perhaps we are using the same word for different actions.--Fahrenheit451 23:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing that out. All my dictionary definitions of "to abandon" imply permanence. Would you be willing to change that word to a word that doesn't imply permanence? — Sebastian 05:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- Well, some of my definitions imply permanence and others do not. A more accurate statement would be: Leonmon, because of his absense, temporarily gave up control of the mediation to an uncivil, disruptive user."--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Counter proposed resolution
In order to resolve this justly, I propose the following actions:
- SebastianHelm publicly apologize to User:Addhoc for false accusations of abandoning the coordination process.
- SebastianHelm explain publicly why he distorted the facts of this mediation and turned a simple matter of substituting the mediator into what appears to be a persecution of User:Addhoc.--Fahrenheit451 22:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- I did not accuse "User:Addhoc ... of abandoning the coordination process" but I stated that ey abandoned eir duty as a MedCab coordinator to help mediators. Maybe the word "abandoned" was not the best choice, and I herewith change that to "neglected". Please provide references for your accusation of distortion of facts. Please also provide your reason for your demand for "substituting the mediator". — Sebastian 23:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
"I did not accuse "User:Addhoc ... of abandoning the coordination process" but I stated that ey abandoned eir duty as a MedCab coordinator to help mediators." I would say both subjects are tantamount. I think you are quibbling. My evidence for distortion of facts is above under omitted data and falsehood.--Fahrenheit451 23:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Fahrenheit451 and Stan, thanks for your comments. The last comment by Leonmon on the case page was to thank me for offering advice, and in this context, I'm not sure continuing this discussion is necessary. Addhoc 00:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
- The graciousness of Leonmon’s answer reflects well on Leonmon’s desire to even learn from inappropriate accusations, not on the validity of your accusations. Your accusations are still unfounded and hurt Mediation Cabal, as described in detail above.
- For the Mediation Cabal, — Sebastian 05:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: 20:27, November 21 (Privacy of e-mail)
SebastianHelm, our email exchange was private. You do not have my permission to reveal any of my emails.--Fahrenheit451 22:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Of course, that's why I'm asking. Thank you for your reply. — Sebastian 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Re: 18:36, November 23
- Addhoc removed Leonmon's name from the info box. There was no documentation that he "kicked" Leonmon off the case, so that is a false accusation.--Fahrenheit451 23:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Re: 20:10, November 23
Omitted data:StanEn made a couple statements as to why he left that were quite clear and Addhoc actions were not mentioned or alluded to.--Fahrenheit451 23:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing this out; this entry has been changed. — Sebastian 05:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: 21:23, November 27
Omitted data:Fahrenheit451 had already informed SebastianHelm that the mediator should be replaced several times prior to asking the mediation be terminated.--Fahrenheit451 22:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- For the reason to leave the mediation, see section #Why User:Fahrenheit451 left the mediation above.
- Please explain why you feel that the mediator should be replaced. — Sebastian 05:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- I already did in a private email to you. Please review it if you still have it.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 03:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: The accusation “abandoned” is disingenuous
Sebastian, please define your words carefully. I think you have wrongfully hurled an accusation at Addhoc. While Leonmon did not desert the case, he did give up control of the mediation to a disruptive user. Also, you are comparing two entirely different circumstances of mediation which is a fallacy.--Fahrenheit451 23:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- See section #Definitions of "Abandon" above. — Sebastian 05:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: User:Fahrenheit451 abandoned the project
Falsehood:Fahrenheit451's first actions were to get a response from Leonmon when User:Misou was repeatedly uncivil, then remedy the mediator's absense by getting a substitute mediator.--Fahrenheit451 23:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
- The finding of fact states "User:Fahrenheit451's first action on this page was to leave the mediation". The statement makes no claims about actions outside of this page. If you feel it is relevant, please provide a WP:DIFF. — Sebastian 05:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- Sebastian, you know as well as I what my actions on that page were as the full history is here:[23] If you want to see diffs, you go ahead and look for them. You can spend your time on this exercise all you want to. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 03:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
- Sebastian, one other point that you should be aware of here as much as anyone: MedCab is voluntary. Any participant in a dispute can join or leave on their own volition for any reason. I left because User:Misou was allowed to disrupt the mediation with repeated uncivil remarks. I left it with notification to you beforehand. I think you should retract the false remark about my "abandonment" when as a voluntary participant, such an epithet is entirely irrelevant anyway.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: Addhoc
Sebastian has referred to my case, re Adhoc as a mediator, so I might as well outline what happened in case it is of any help to anyone.
I was having issues with TheRingess, and was advised by Buddipriya to go to MedCab. I did so and Addhoc volunteered to mediate.
June 13th: The case opened. TheRingess made her statement and I made mine, outlining three issues that were of concern to me.
21st July: Addhoc made a comment regarding one of the issues, specifically the least important one.
2nd August: Addhoc made a comment about users exercising editorial judgment, which again touched on the least important of the three issues. I did not take this as his "verdict" because it made no reference to the main issues.
Circa 31st August: Having waited for ten weeks, I asked Addhoc if the above comment was actually his "verdict". He seemed to have no idea what I was talking about and said that it looked like I should have gone to Arbitration instead of MedCab, because MedCab does not handle disputes about user conduct. I had wasted ten weeks.
Details are on:Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-06-13_Sardaka
Sardaka 08:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I can see neither the word "verdict" nor the word "arbitration" anywhere on Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2007-06-13_Sardaka. When and where did Addhoc say that? The best way to source this is by using WP:DIFFs. — Sebastian 09:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Addhoc
Sebastian, if you honestly believe that I have acted inappropriately, then you should file a request for comment. Otherwise, I suggest this entire thread is archived. Addhoc 13:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for your reply! You have a point - I didn't make it clear why this is not an option. RfC is there for policy violations. But the Mediation Cabal is not (and, according to our project page, never will be) Wikipedia policy. So, there simply is no policy that says you can't hurt Mediation Cabal, even if you are a Mediation Cabal coordinator. Moreover, angry as I may be, I don't want your hands slapped. I simply want us to function as a team. — Sebastian 16:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
- Really, Sebastian? I don't see your crusade here to conduce to teamwork whatsoever. What I see your actions doing is tying up a few productive editors into your own wrong minded inquest. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I object at this point. Sebastian needs to remove the opinions in the colored box that he considers to be facts and "findings".--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 02:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'll be talking with both Addhoc and Sebastian. --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
The cavalry. Late, as always.
Sent mail to Addhoc and Sebastian. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)