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Archive 1

May I add Houston, Texas to the list of things that we could try to have as a featured article? WhisperToMe 22:06, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sure, add whatever you want. Mike H 22:19, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Suggestions

Does anyone want to work on Waffle House? It could probably use a little work...--Carl 00:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'll take a crack at it...how about following the UK example and ID'ing ourselves with respect to where we're from? Ellsworth 21:37, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Doobie Brothers

Aren't they from San Jose, California? Usually California is considered part of the Southwest, not South. Maurreen 11:31, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Their subject matter dealt with Southern songs, and their sound was the same. Creedence Clearwater Revival was also a California band, but it's considered pretty much Southern. I figure it's quite relevant. Mike H 13:58, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

Don't you think those Confederate flags will drive away about half the population of the South? Ortolan88 15:15, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC), born and bred in the briar patch

I'm rather uncomfortable with them as well. Don't want to be a pain in the ass or anything, but...[[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 15:19, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
I like 'em. They piss off Yankees. :D --Golbez 17:10, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

They piss off black people. They piss off people who hate slavery and love liberty (same thing, you know). I'm glad "we" lost the war. I'm ashamed "we" fought it. I'll skip this forum as long as they remain. If this forum is limited to "white" southerners (if you only knew all your cousins . . . ), I'll skip it forever. I'll just write my articles on my own-ee-o. Ortolan88 20:41, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Holy generalizations, Batman. --Golbez 21:20, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
I live in the Southern United States, not in the Confederacy. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 17:19, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

They're gone, all right? I mean, wow. Mike H 21:21, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

Jimbo added his name to the rolls while they were still there; better not let that get out, or the anti-cabalists will have so much more ammo. ;) --Golbez 21:32, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

So, it's a cabal, is it? I thought it was just näive white southerners not appreciating or understanding the meaning of the symbol. As for generalizations, some of them are true, the war was a war against slavery and black people do not like the Confederate flag. I didn't make any generalizations about Golberz (although one can privately surmise). Speaking for myself, I hate slavery and love liberty, and one of the main reasons I'm glad I grew up in the south is all the black people I got to know and all the great black music I learned to love. It's worth putting up with a few peckerwoods and wool-hat boys. I think "Dixie" is one of the greatest songs ever written and I used to thrill to hear it played, but it isn't heard anymore, and I think the Confederate flag should join it. Ortolan88 00:48, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC) PS - I know all kinds of people who are not particularly racist value the Confederate flag because they like to think of themselves as "rebels" and they appreciate a truly great piece of vexillological graphics, but the same could be said for other flags with unmistakable historical baggage as well.

I was referring to the people who think a cabal, led by Jimbo, runs the site. Associating him with the southern cross could only give them more ammo. :) I understand and appreciate fully the meaning of the symbol, I understand and appreciate fully the meaning of the Civil War, and understand and appreciate that most people don't understand or appreciate either. But yes, it has historic baggage - So many things do. But as you can see, I have not challenged nor reverted the change. So let's let this argument die. --Golbez 01:41, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)


Okay. Now about this idea that the Doobie Brothers and Creedence are southern bands . . . Ortolan88 03:19, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, damn, if it pisses you off that much, just remove it. Mike H 07:17, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

To think that these are southern bands makes me laugh. Ortolan88 13:22, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You've made your point. However, I distinctly remember other sources (like Encarta encyclopedia) making a point of CCR's "Memphis sound". Mike H 17:21, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
I'm collecting material for an article - The Memphis Sound or Memphis Sound. Please see Talk:Stax_Records for some peliminary ideas. I'm pretty sure The Memphis Sound is a Southern thang ;) Quinobi 04:20, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The influence of "southern sound" on CCR is totally legitimate for an article about them. That doesn't make them a southern band, any more than the energetic Japanese bluegrass scene is a southern scene. BTW, I only brought it up because I was trying to return in kind Goberz's gracious ending of the flag issue by making a little joke. Gee. Ortolan88 18:48, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think the New Orleans, Louisiana article is quite a good one and deserving of featured status, so I nominated it. I would appreciate it if y'all could take a look at it and comment or vote at its candidate page.--Kevin M Marshall 21:06, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yogurt/Yoghurt discussion

I know posting here is rather a unusual approach to getting more American involvement into a discussion currently taking place regarding a vote for reverting a rename from "Yoghurt" to "Yogurt" at Talk:Yoghurt. Apparently, the original move took place without very much involvement or consensus about the name change. The discussion to changing it back to Yogurt has been oddly even, with a high number of United Kingdom speakers chiming in. Of course, the fact that the issue was brought up at the Wikipedia talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board may have something to do with it. That seems to me to be an unfair way to resolve an issue. So my suggestion is that if you have time, take a look at the debate at Talk:Yoghurt and, if you care one way or another, please weigh in. ℬastique▼talk 22:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hello!

I figured this would be a very good idea to start. The U.S. South is a very important region, and the articles are especially dear to me, since I'm a Son of the South. Since there are many good Wikipedians from this area, and over 100 million people in general, I figured it wasn't too "niche". Mike H 20:36, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

U.S. South COTW

Please help the two articles already listed reach featured status.

Also, list an article you'd like to see for Collaboration of the Week. Since the Australians decided to do Cyclone Tracy, I'd like to see a hurricane that affected the South get good treatment, and that's why I listed Hurricane Camille. I felt it was lacking in comparison to other hurricane articles. Mike H 22:19, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

For Southern Wikipedian peer review

Please give feedback on the current selections, The Doobie Brothers and William Faulkner. Feel free to add others if you want people to review the selections, and post asking for opinions. Mike H 05:02, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

COTW

G'day to all those Southern Americans out there! I was wondering if you guys have considered making a COTW subpage? We tried it at the Aussie Collaboration of the Week and it seems to have worked pretty well for Cyclone Tracy. Just a thought. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:43, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Working quite well for the Irish COTW too. Filiocht 13:05, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

COTW Voting

I sent notes to people who were subscribed to this board two days ago, and very little voting has gone on. Right now it looks like an article is going to win COTW by a shocking margin of two votes to one, so seriously, please vote. Mike H 22:55, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

By a margin of 3 to 1, Southern U.S. cuisine is our first COTW. Mike H 02:27, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
The Miami Herald is the new COTW with six support votes. Mike H 21:30, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

COTW

Would anyone object if the current COTW stays up another week? It's a very in-depth kind of topic and it is nowhere near done yet. At this point, Delmarva Peninsula will automatically be saved as the next COTW, and new nominations can begin. Any objections? Mike H 21:33, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

    • I don't mind. Another week is good. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 21:35, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
Good idea. Maurreen 21:46, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Involvement

I extended the history article as the COTW for a whole week and save for my edit on the post-Civil Rights movement, nothing happened at all. This isn't encouraging. Mike H 03:14, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

Help with images

I've just found the Southern wikipedians interest group and this page. Today is overcast but I will get an image for The Varsity next weekend if the weather's good. I can get pics for most any Atlanta area feature; sometimes travelling in the region so other Southern items are possibilities as well. Will be in New Orleans the first few days of January. Autiger 20:40, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC) Archive of First Notice Board Attempt, September - November 2004

Welcome back!

User:JCarriker asked me if I wanted to reopen the notice board, and I think now is a good time. Welcome back, everyone! Mike H 02:42, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Bout time we got this back open. I'm down here in Fort Lauderdale (the physical south), but th' family's from South Carolina (Dixie). But I'll be keepin' an eye on South Florida topics, with possible translations into French and, (with help) Irish for their respective wikipedias. Also, I nominated a very lacking article for Collaboration of the Week, United States Bicentennial. Given the particularly American nature of this article, we may not make nomination, but I'm certain a few of my fellow Southern countrymen/women would be more than gracious to provide a helping hand! ℬastique▼talk 02:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Skinny Dippin'

If you are like a lot of Southerners I know, you might go Skinnydippin' in a creek or a river. That means you may know something about a local watershed. If that's the case, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ecoregions could use your help organizing and expanding articles about your local tributary. Quinobi 06:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dixie

Well, hope this isn't too late, or off-the-wall, but I know of a little town in Virginia where the municipal band plays every week in the summer. Every performance is started with the playing of The Star Spangled Banner followed by Dixie. The funny thing is that sometimes you can see more people stand for Dixie than the National Anthem. And I don't think it has anything to do with race. People just associate the song with the South, and they are proud Southerners. Anyway, I guess I don't really make much sense, but what's new? --Lord Voldemort 5 July 2005 20:15 (UTC)

Keep in mind that, ironically, the South has always been an oppressed minority; it could never compete with the industrial North in terms of population, and it often came out on the bad end of legislation that benifitted the North. The slavery issue wasn't one of racism, but one of economics. The economy of the South was based on cotton, and raising cotton was a labor intensive, brutally hard task that, before the invention of modern agricultural tools, depended on slave labor. With the rise of the abolitionist movement in the North, and the election of an abolitionist President, the South saw the death of its entire economy looming on the horizon. There were slave states in the North, but they didn't have the dependency of the cotton economy that the Southern states did, and the Northern states were just as racist as the Southern (they didn't exactly welcome the influx of former slaves that moved north after the war). The South still views itself as an oppressed minority in many ways--after all, most of the political power in the US resides in the North and California, neither of which are at all economically or culturally like the South. Since the South is outnumbered politically, it's generally been a strong believer in state's rights, and given the recent cases expanding the power of the Federal government (I'm personally watching United States v. Stewart to see if they completely hose the commerce clause, finishing the transition to totally unlimited Federal power started by FDR), I think you could say the oppression is still there today.
(Of course, I am a bit biased--I was born in south MS, one of the poorest states in the nation, where the economy still hasn't recovered from Sherman's tactic of burning everything in sight). scot 5 July 2005 20:52 (UTC)
Most of the political power resides in the North and California? You're kidding, right? That perhaps at one time was true, but I don't think so anymore. The only person on the House majority leadership who isn't from the South is Hastert (Illinois) -- Blunt, the majority whip, is from MO and DeLay, the majority leader, is from Texas. Same in the Senate -- Frist, the majority leader, is from Tennessee, and his whip, Mitch McConnell, is from Kentucky. And of course Bush is from Texas. · Katefan0(scribble) July 5, 2005 21:05 (UTC)


And of course they have not the slightest bit of trouble with their agenda, and replacing O'Connor is going to just be a walk in the park... The telling detail is the makeup of Congress--they're the ones who make the laws, confirm the judges, and ratify the treaties; they're the ones with the real power. And while you're at it, count up electroal votes--the South is just a swing vote; carrying the Northeast and the West Coast gets you most of the way to the Presidency with only a handful of states; take the South and Midwest it's just a drop in the bucket, you've got to carry some of the states with major cities to win it; this is why both parties run moderates, hoping to get their target constituency plus enough of the fringes to bring in a win. Also keep in mind that Florida and Texas, the big population states in the South, tend to have very polarized votes. Look at county by county election returns for them, and you'll see that the major metro areas often vote against the rest of the state, and in many cases are sufficient to swing the entire state. "The South" mentality is more typical of the rural or small-town population than the major metro areas. scot 5 July 2005 21:43 (UTC)
Except for the truly rural Black Belt, which now votes against the Republicanized white south. The urban-suburban polarization is evident everywhere - just as much in Ohio, California and Pennsylvania as in Alabama and Louisiana. If you exclude all the voters (Urban areas, TX, FL) from the "true south" then you manufacture your own "south" which does not reflect geographic reality. Dystopos 5 July 2005 22:00 (UTC)
Actually, scot is probably more correct. Just because specific people might be from the South (Bush is a yank), doesn't mean the South has political power. California, New York, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania all have huge electoral votes. The South has Texas and Florida (and no one ever knows what can happen there). Most of the power still does reside in scot's aforementioned locations. --Lord Voldemort 5 July 2005 21:18 (UTC)
Though the Bush family does hail from Connecticut, it is worth noting that George W's manufactured image as a Texan is considered to help, rather than hurt, his appeal. Likewise Jeb's move to Florida. As a voting bloc, the South is more powerful than any other region. To pretend otherwise you'd have to pretend that California and New York are one entity. Dystopos 5 July 2005 21:31 (UTC)
Enlighten me--on what major issues to NY and CA differ? Being of a Libertarian leaning, I tend to lump them both under the category "source of annoying economic and 2nd Amdendment policies". scot 5 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
Californian governors, at least, tend to be pretty pro-gun and anti-union while the opposite typifies New York's state politics. Perhaps it's libertarianism that is marginal, rather than the South? Dystopos 5 July 2005 22:36 (UTC)
The why did Arnie ban .50 BMG rifles? Try buying an SKS, which is by no stretch of the imagination an "assault weapon" in CA. What about the "California Approved" handguns, which effectively ban handguns like the 1911, which, oddly enough, were safe enough for out military to use for well over 75 years? What about the longshoremen who make $177k a year? CA isn't as anti-gun or pro-union as NY (and especially NYC) but they aren't that far off, especially when you do a more apples-to-apples comparision between say, NYC and San Francisco. scot 6 July 2005 14:36 (UTC)
    • Not sure what it will accomplish to vent our political frustrations here, but a few points I'd like to refute:
    1. While the South could not compete with the population of the North in the early days, that was hardly oppression, or even an inconvenience to political power. The fact that abolition took as long as it did was an expression of Southern political might. The 3/5ths compromise or the very existence of the Senate in a bicameral legislative branch are testaments to the power of Southern delegates to minimize population as the sole measure of influence.
    2. The raising of cotton did not depend on slave labor. The plantation method of raising cotton did. Those without the resources to own slaves still produced cotton, but their farms were not the massively concentrated operations that plantations were.
    3. There were not slave states in the north after the Missouri Compromise in 1820.
    4. While most of the political power in the U.S. is outside the South, the South is considered a critical voting bloc, without which there is little hope of winning a national election.
    5. "Totally unlimited Federal power" is, blessedly, a great overstatement.
Ah, but overstatement is fun. If you stomp all over the commerce clause, then what does limit Federal power? scot 5 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
    1. Sherman never led an army through Mississippi. He did not pioneer the tactics associated with him. He instructed his officers NOT to destroy property where their progress was unmolested, and that only Corps Commanders could authorize destruction in fair measure as retribution when they were attacked.

[1].

And yet the South burned, and "scorched earth" is forever associated with "Sherman's March to the Sea". Can't trace my mother's side of the family back beyond the 1860s because most of the records were burned. scot 5 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
A narrow swath of Georgia burned (not "The South"). The purpose of the strategy, like nuclear strategy, was to hasten the end of warfare, ostensibly preventing ongoing destruction. Dystopos 5 July 2005 22:36 (UTC)
That may have been Sherman's goal, but it certainly wasn't the goal of everyone under his command. Also keep in mind that the South's goal was to escape what they saw as impending economic ruin, and a trend towards increasing Federal power and a corresponding reduciton in state sovereignty; the goal of the North was subjegation--yes, a loaded word, I know, but that's what a typical Southerner would have said. And would they have been all that wrong? The Union army did systematically attack Southern infrastructure (think railroads tied in knots, and the naval blockades) to destroy the South's ability to logistically and economically maintain the war; then they eliminated the Confederate government, and (again, in the Southern view) replaced the state leaders with puppet governments. scot 6 July 2005 14:36 (UTC)
Sherman's destruction of a narrow swath of South Carolina after the narrow swath of Georgia is well documented, including the razing of Columbia. I'm not involved in the rest of the debate...just had to get that little factoid out. ℬastique▼talk 6 July 2005 17:33 (UTC)
    1. To imagine that the modern south is a victim of political oppression requires an enormous imagination - as Katefan0 has already pointed out. Dystopos 5 July 2005 21:25 (UTC)
But the topic was Southern Pride, not history. If people perceive they are treated unfairly (and in many cases "unfairly" means "not biased enough in my favor") then they will develop a sense of unity based on the feeling of "us versus them". And that is why the Stars and Bars still flys in the South, and why people will stand for Dixie. scot 5 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
Well said. Dystopos 5 July 2005 22:36 (UTC)

Yowzers!!! I just wanted to tell a little story, not fight politics or history. But I just have to correct one point above. The bicameral legislature helped those small New England states. It was James Madison (Virginian) at the drafting of the Constitution who fought hard for representation based on population. It was the small states up north who were afraid of the big states, including Virginia (the largest state at the time). And I think people underestimate the destructive role of "Reconstruction." It did set back the economy and political power. Even today you see many northern politicians running south to continue the time-honored tradition of carpetbagging. The South was being used, and may still be. But who cares about any of this. Politics are awful. Neither party makes complete sense. I just wanted to tell a nice little story about rural America. I'm amazed people actually read this page. I thought I would come back in a month or so and have one response. Maybe. Now I'm starting to wish I had never brought it up. I'll be seeing you later. --Lord Voldemort 6 July 2005 14:48 (UTC)

Hey, how y'all? There's some excellent insight here. A lot of it isn't rant, but very solid (and interesting) historical argument. You realize you don't have to rant in private; like Dorothy wearing those ruby slippers. A lot of this should be restated to NPOV, attributed, and put somewhere in the Wikipedia. I'm constantly surprised how much I learn when I really get a wedge into a subject. I just edited the Battle of Peachtree Creek, and although I spent some time on it, I'm sure I took away as much as I contributed. It was a double bonus for me, since I live right smack dab in the middle of the battlefield. Masonbarge 09:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Category:US Southern Wikipedians

I have created a new user category modeled after UK Wikipedians. Please consider listing yourself there. Please also consider listeing your self under Category:Millenial Wikipedians if you wer born in the 1980s or 1990s, or consider creatign a similar category for your generation. Thanks. -JCarriker 18:34, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Simple Question-Southern Wikipedians

Would like to add myself to Southern Wikipedians and the foreign section if there is one. Should I add my name in alphabetical order or at the bottom? Anybody that has the time please answer. Thanks. --Dakota 15:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

It was definitely alpha when I added myself; for the most part it seems so still, but it appears the bottom third of the list is a little messy right now. Autiger 05:00, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Where can I nominate an article for de-stubbing?

Can I just add Boggy Bayou Mullet Festival to the list, or do I have to propose it here? - Kookykman (talk • contribs)

Just do it -- use the edit process. Apollo 10:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

there is no process for destubbing an article beyond good judgment --Herzog 08:25, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I added Okefenokee Swamp to the de-stubing list. GL12 06:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

New WikiProject: Florida

Just wanted to mention the new WikiProject Florida, as it might be of interest here. Come over and join us! -- Tetraminoe 22:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Maryland/D.C. Editors?

A high-school student from Maryland posted on the Village Pump looking for a local editor to interview by email. Thought I'd mention it here in case someone can help. — Catherine\talk 00:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Santa Barbara Meetup

Hello. I'm going to be talking about Wikipedia at the Digital Transitions Forum in Santa Barbara and I have Saturday 8 April free. Would anyone in this area like to plan a Santa Barbara Wikipedia:Meetup? Please add your name to Wikipedia:Meetup/Santa Barbara with suggested times/locations if you would like to attend. Angela. 10:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

New WikiProject: Louisville

Long overdue, I just started WikiProject Louisville today. Please join and participate if you are interested. Cheers! — Stevie is the man! Talk | Work

Standard naming scheme

Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Regional notice boards#A uniform naming scheme. Zocky | picture popups 00:52, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Lost and Found article - Long Bay

There doesn't seem to be a list for new articles or lost and found articles for the Southern USA or for USA Geography type atricles. (similar to these lists). I came across Long Bay. it is an orphan article that needs to be linked to other articles. I thought this might be the best place to post a message about it. -- Adz|talk 07:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Virginia

anyone else interested in starting one? Surprised this state with so much history doesn't have one... I can create it, just wanted to see if there was interest before I went to the trouble plange 03:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

DYK

The DYK section featured on the main page is always looking for interesting new and recently expanded stubs from different parts of the world. Please make a suggestion.--Peta 02:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Wikipedia:WikiProject Southern United States

Merge -first off i want to mention that currently there is an attempt to delete Wikipedia: WikiProject Southern United States. (see Discuss Deletion) secondly, being from alabama, i whole heartedly embrace the idea of merging the projects that have developed on this notice list to an official Southern united states project page. while it is just as possible for the list to retain its southern wikipedian status, this need not be exclusively up to us southerners to manage southern issues. we can use the help of historians, and southern cultural enthusiasts everywhere to improve articles pertaining to the south and southern interests. Some thing 16:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment - while not necessarily opposed to the proposal above, I would think a merger of the Project as a task force or work group with Wikipedia:WikiProject United States regions would be the more natural merger. Whether this notice board would like to merge with the Southern US project separately is a matter I as a non-participant of this notice board do not feel qualified to comment on. John Carter 16:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the merger was proposed the other way because there is significant overlap, not because it should be a subproject of another nonSouthern project. Chris 21:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

An Invitation from the Philippine Wikipedia Community

Hello folks,

The Philippine Wikipedia Community will be holding its 1st Meet-up in Cebu City (the fourth one in the Philippines) on June 23-24, 2008. This coincides with the first Philippine Open Source Summit, also to be held in Cebu. The Philippine Wikipedia Community is an Implementing Partner of the Open Source Summit. We invite you to join us in this event. If you are in the IT or IT-enabled services industry, this would be a great opportunity to meet people from the 4th best outsourcing city in the world. This is also a good excuse to visit our beautiful beaches :)

If you're interested in joining the Wikipedia meet-up, please join our discussion. You can register for the Open Source Summit here. If you would like some assistance with local accomodations, you may email User:Bentong Isles.

The Philippine Wikipedia Community
WP:PINOY

Inactive

I have added the {{inactive}} tag because there appears to be no activity here, similar to the lack of activity at another wikiproject that was proposed to be merged here. Both pages may be MfD subjects, but I'm not going to run them through yet; it's possible that the inactive tag will move some people to use this page again. Horologium (talk) 11:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see this Project Active. I did not know it even existed. I guess I will work on it myself for a while and see if others join. Legohead1my_talk18:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets get back to work here!

Current Work in this Project

Suggestion to merge this noticeboard

I have started a proposal to merge three United States related Noticeboards into one due to all three having no, or extremely limited activity, in the last year. I believe this will invigorate the noticeboard if we keep any of them at all. I propose merging:

into

Please provide comments here (including support or oppose). Comments are necessary to ensure that this does not intefere with ongoing efforts. If no comments are received in 7 days I will assume there is no problem and proceed with the merger. --Kumioko (talk) 19:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

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