Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Archive 58

Archive 55

Archive 56

Archive 57

Archive 58

Mostini

I've just requested speedy on Draft:The Thermodynamic Nexus in The Process of Quantum Gravity Sigma ZG Matrix. Took me a while to realise that it's yet another reincarnation of the long-running Mostini saga; only twigged that when I looked at a couple of the 'sources' cited.

These were at some point created by Josammy777, and IIRC there were others involved also, but they've since switched to IP editing from multiple ranges, which makes things more difficult to track.

This has been attempted at so many different titles that I can't remember most of them, but the key words/phrases to watch out for are 'Mostini' / 'Mostini Planet', 'Sigma ZG', 'Alpha & Omega', 'Thermodynamic Sigma', matrix, nexus, etc., as well as the author's (?) name Josammy (in Josammy Ganga, Josammy Technology, Josammy Emporio Foundation, etc.) usually appearing somewhere in there.

Just wanted to flag up here in case someone wasn't aware / didn't remember. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. For anyone tagging it as G3 in the near future, might be worth pointing to this thread as well just so certain passing admins aren't throwing fits. Primefac (talk) 12:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Do we have any other recurring AfC sagas like this one? I wonder if maybe it's worth making a list somewhere. -- asilvering (talk) 19:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Not really. Most of the long-term drama is just LTAs and socks trying to push their favourite actor through the process despite them only having been in one b-list film as an extra. Primefac (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewers encountering Carmel-by-the-Sea drafts

You should be aware that there is an ANI discussion concerning the creating editor and validity of sourcing. Please double check sources with care. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 23:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

ANI link. Primefac (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

For those who encounter the drafts from Greghenderson2006, please be specially certain that the references pass muster. I have used {{Noping}} in order not to pester them, since the ANI outcome was a community block with no appeal for at least 12 months. They will obviously be unable to respond.

The ANI outcome prompted my request at the Twinkle talk page, where Primefac drew my attention to a checkbox allowing users not to notify the editor concerned. The AFC script already has such a checkbox. Out of kindness for the blocked editor, a fellow human being, please consider whether notifying them of deletions, reviews, AFC comments, etc does them a service or a disservice, and proceed at your discretion. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 12:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, 12 months means all declined drafts are likely to become deleted drafts. Draft:Lewis Josselyn is really quite extensive and has just been declined - if anyone's in the mood for a draft save, you might want to have a look at that one. Again, as Timtrent said, with a close eye to the sources. -- asilvering (talk) 19:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Asilvering see the talk page where extensive discussion took place about both the sourcing and the content. I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment because 99.99999% of the time there's nothing there other than WikiProject tags but for Greghenderson2006's drafts I suggest reviewers do. S0091 (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, yep. Nevermind, then - this should indeed be left to expire. -- asilvering (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment. Maybe we can build a notification into AFCH about this. More details in the ticket. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

That would be really helpful, and it seems to me like your suggestion is a good way to do it. -- asilvering (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree and Joe Roe in the discussion below suggested the same. Thanks Novem. If there is a way to flag anything that is not a template that would be better in case whoever placed the original comment did not start a section but either way, something is better than nothing. S0091 (talk) 18:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Rafael de Miguel González declined 5 times.

Five different reviewers declined the same article (for different reasons). Is there a limit to how often someone can submit an article? What other actions (besides re-declining again and again) should be taken? Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 06:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@LR.127 There is no limit, though submission without improvement tends to be tendentious and creates a time sink. Reviewers are human and sufficient "silly submission" can lead to a possibly undeserved rejection. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@LR.127 This draft was suggested by @DoubleGrazing to have a possibility of passing WP:NACADEMIC back in December. I think they were correct, though, as presented, I feel it woudl have been the wrong side of the borderline. Since then there has been no improvement to referencing.

I have left a comment on the draft just now, hoping for a resubmission with just one better reference. It was most recently submitted by an IP.

I think this one may be acceptable and I'm willing to accept it based on the 50% "rule" and let the community decide. I do not feel like performing a "submit and accept" on it at this stage, though. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

(I didn't even remember commenting on this...) FWIW, I reckon the EUROGEO presidency satisfies NACADEMIC #6, and the Academia Europaea membership and the fellowship of the Royal Academy of Fine Arts of San Luis both meet #3. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I have done as I promised on the draft and accepted it, despite not being provided with the extra reference requested. Over to the community. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If it has no chance of ever being accepted due to notability or WP:NOT, rejection is the next step. It is like declining, except it takes away the resubmit button. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

This is really absurd. The first two declines were for not being written in English. Now that's been fixed, they shouldn't be held against it. After that, multiple reviewers agreed that the subject was notable, but The Herald and LR.127 still declined it for lacking notability. How do you expect the submitter to respond to that feedback – "this is notable, but it doesn't show that it's notable"? It's kafkaesque. Both also complained that the article was "not adequately supported by reliable sources", but it's a one-paragraph bio with six inline citations, what more do you want? Timtrent commented that:

For a living person we have a high standard of referencing. Every substantive fact you assert, especially one that is susceptible to potential challenge, requires a citation with a reference that is about them, and is independent of them, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS, and is significant coverage.

...which is just flat-out wrong. There is no policy that every statement must be referenced, even on BLPs. What WP:BLP actually says is all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Even if there was, all that are required are reliable, published sources. "Independent", "secondary" and "significant coverage" are requirements of the WP:GNG, not the verifiability or BLP policies. The article uses primary sources from, for example, the University of Zaragoza to support the claim that he is a professor at the University of Zaragoza, and the Real Sociedad Geográfica to support the claim that he is on the board of the Real Sociedad Geográfica. Unless we think these institutions are likely to lie about who works for them, this is absolutely fine. More to the point, when did AfC, which is supposed to accept anything that is not blatant deletion material, give itself the job of fact-checking every single claim in a draft?

This draft should have been accepted as soon as it was translated to English. It is an excellent example of why good faith editors should be steered away from AfC in its current state. – Joe (talk) 08:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Whoa – "good faith editors should be steered away from AfC in its current state"!

Well don't hold back, what do you really think about AfC? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

You'll find it's a common view. All the event organisers I know tell new editors to use userspace drafts or create in mainspace instead. Women in Red explicitly says it is not recommended that you submit drafts to Wikipedia:Articles for creation. Basically anyone involved in growing the editor base has learned through hard experience to avoid it like the plague. Personally I think it's broken by design and performs some useful functions by being so, but that is no excuse for holding good faith drafts to standards so far above what the community has tasked AfC with doing. – Joe (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak for others, but I do AfC and NPP and apply the same standards in both, so I don't think it's entirely fair to say categorically that AfC's standards are "so far above" others'. And if AfC goes, it will just shift the workload to the already-congested NPP: notability, verifiability, etc. issues will still be assessed, they'll just be assessed there instead.

At the end of the day, AfC is mostly a voluntary process, so if sections of the community want to apply lower standards to their WikiProject's (or whatever) article creation, they're welcome to do so. (I don't know why they would want to do that, but they must have their reasons.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

And is it now in mainspace? Yes, it is. And did I put it there, yes I did. Thank you for your comments. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, full credit for that, I was glad to see it. I still find it worrying to see an editor of your experience, who reviews so many AfC submissions, giving blatantly incorrect instructions to a new user. It should not have taken eight months, three declines, and a discussion here to accept an article on a subject that was acknowledged to be notable from the beginning and with zero significant content issues. – Joe (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, I declined it on the grounds of lack of inline cites and inability to establish notability. In my experience, BLPs should be more rigorously scanned for notability and AfC should act as a deterrent. Articles passed by AfC shouldn't make it to AfD after a few months just because they weren't fact checked. Tomorrow, if this article ends up in AfD for not sticking to SIGCOV and GNG, then what was the point of AfC? That's why, I try to be a little bit more strict with BLPs as they are more prone to deletion if there's no SIGCOV or GNG. Nonetheless, I see Joe's point about AfC being a headache and a factor to steer away AGF editors who are genuinely interested in the project.
Anyways, glad to see the draft in mainspace and hope it doesn't end up in AfD because AfD is not exactly kind to articles with borderline notability.
Another point I'd like to say is, I straight out reject a draft if there are no improvements after multiple declines. But, there is no deadline and we can always improve the articles/drafts. Happy editing yall. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

When you declined the draft there were six inline citations – which statements specifically did you identify as lacking citations? There was also a comment from DoubleGrazing saying, I think this is notable per WP:NACADEMIC – did you disagree with this assessment? What in the article needed to be "fact checked", and why would failure to do that lead to an AfD? Why would it end up at AfD for "not sticking to SIGCOV and GNG", when the claim to notability is per WP:NACADEMIC, not the GNG? – Joe (talk) 11:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I am with @Joe Roe:; I have been watching SafariScribe's talk page and they reject articles by the hundreds, often in direct contradiction of the guidelines at WP:AFCR. They demanded that I email them scans of books; is that acceptable behavior? I am not sure how to fix AfC but something has to be done because in its current form it seems only to exist to bite newbies and to keep people out. People like me who have been here for a couple of years don't see what's going on over here but it clearly violates the intended spirit of AfC. I'd love to see this brought up somewhere more official because this is making us look like sadistic, low-level bureaucrats. I can't really argue with this quote: Editors reviewing submissions through AfC are just looking for an excuse to decline them.  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, that's quite a good guide. -- asilvering (talk) 07:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Mr.choppers, it's not accurate to say that editors decline drafts without good reasons or that they find a reason to decline drafts based on the misleading essay you cited above. That essay is totally incorrect. Reviewers often go out of their way to help improve drafts when they have the time.. However the approach you're suggesting for the AFC process might not be very helpful. We consider many factors in AFDs beyond what you might expect. If you continue this way, you might be causing confusion, especially by leaving unnecessary comments on editors' talk pages including mine.

For your comments on my talk page, I was trying to assist a new editor with their draft, and when I noticed the sources were unreliable, I offered to help them remove some. But then I saw Chopper's comment saying there was no need to remove the sources and citing AFC standards in detail. While there's nothing wrong with what you've done, there’s room for improvement. You've even mentioned before that some drafts are incorrectly declined when you could easily move them to mainspace. Please focus your energy in helping rather than blaming reviewers who are doing their best. Cheers! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 03:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@SafariScribe, I don't think this is a good response to Mr.choppers. And I share his concerns that you've been declining articles for strange and sometimes inscrutable reasons. -- asilvering (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

This has been brought up quite frequently recently and I think editors have conflicting opinions. Some believe drafts should only be declined if they aren't notable (i.e. they would fail an AfD), while some believe the standards should be much higher (sources must be in the article, reliable sources, enough inline citations, NPOV, etc.) Per WP:AFCPURPOSE it looks like we should all be doing the former. But then why do we have other decline reasons (v, ilc, npov, etc.)? And should AfC reviewers be doing BEFORE checks if the sources aren't present in the article? I think there needs to be more clarification on this. C F A 💬 21:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

We should be following WP:AFCPURPOSE. Every time this comes up, the answer is that editors might want to apply more stringent standards, but they should not. The other decline reasons are the quickfail criteria and suitability criteria, which are explained below that. The WP:V decline is specifically for this case: If what is written in the submission meets the notability guidelines, but the submission lacks references to evidence this. -- asilvering (talk) 19:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is that AFCPURPOSE seems to directly contradict the quick-fail criteria. Yes, it makes sense to decline an article for WP:V if the claim to notability (e.g. a chart position) is unsourced, but what about when large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced? That is not a notability or deletion-related problem. It is a tag-able one. The same thing applies to NPOV issues. They can just be tagged. If AfC's main purpose is to accept articles likely to survive AfDs, and AfD is not cleanup, then we should really only be declining if the topic isn't verifiably notable (or if it is a significant BLP/copyright violation). C F A 💬 02:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

If large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced, you accept and tag, remove the unsourced bits and accept, or leave a comment asking the submitting editor to improve the draft. Nowhere in the quick-fail criteria does it say that an article with an unsourced section should be declined. -- asilvering (talk) 05:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Koshy's

My submission Draft:Koshy's was rejected as not having enough seconday, independent and reliable sources. I thought I had used several articles from well-known newspapers which described the eatery in great detail and the sources were secondary. I have improved the submission and also notified the original reviewer. Hope that reviewer sees my message. Also posting this here for opinion on my draft and if anyone can help. I am sure anyone here who has been to Koshy's would like to help make it even better. The eatery is iconic though I have been there only once. Not paid. No COIs. Thanks Trvllr1 (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It appears that you have made a number of changes and resubmitted, so hopefully you have overcome the issues raised by the previous reviewer. As a minor note, your draft was "declined" not "rejected", as "rejection" implies that it cannot (and/or should not) be resubmitted. Good luck! Primefac (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

User:Robert McClenon/Nassau County Bridge Authority

I accepted a draft for Nassau County Bridge Authority, but had to move the blocking redirect out of the way. My question is whether the redirect needs to be preserved as containing significant history, or can be deleted. Will someone please look at it? My thinking is that it can be deleted, because the significant history was copyvio that has been redacted (revdel'd), so that there no longer is significant history. But I would like a second or third opinion. Should I move it to draft position to point to the article, as is usually done when there is real history, or can it be tagged to go to the great bit bucket in medium earth orbit? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Now with admin tools... I would have just nuke it when processing the draft. 🤣 – robertsky (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any significant history there; there are a lot of edits but they're all just futzing with the redirect itself. I would have used {{db-afc-move}}. Primefac (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Tagged and deleted. McClenon mobile (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)