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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Character alternate version guidelines

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Previous discussions

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Thoughts? Yes. Discuss, and please stop reverting. Doczilla removed those in good faith, based on a previous discussion, and even waited three days for anyone to oppose. I would be happy to see consensus change, but for that to happen, I think discussion would be the way to go.
As for the rest, I agree with Doczilla. Let's start clean, with them removed from all articles. I guarantee you that if consensus turns out that they should be re-added, Doczilla will be one (likely of several) who will be suggesting that after that they be restored. (I stayed one step short of volunteering you Doc : ) - jc37 12:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedic method

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I guess I'll iterate my opinion over. Wikipedia is an enyclopedia. I hope we all agree that means we summarise. I also hope we all agree that means we use some sort of judgement over what we include. Personally, I think we write to inform readers, and we write to convey information already asserted beyond reasonable doubt. I think where there is doubt we should not convey information. I also think there has to be a limit as to what we summarise, as to what we can hope to convey. A character like Superman, who has appeared in stories for nearly seventy years cannot be covered in a manner that details each and every adventure the character has had. Therefore we have to make decisions, and we have to make decisions from a position which views that character as seventy years old. Each choice has to balance each and every adventure against each and every other one. Is an adventure that happened last week more important than one that happened 65 years ago. I think we have to evaluate within that context. I think if we can get that sort of structure up and running, if we take that view, then once we have established a framework, sketched out our canvas in broad strokes, we can look at offering more detail, work out how to present the next level of detail. But first and foremost, we have to get the scaffolding up, we have to build the framework. We have to agree if we are here to write an encyclopedia, to write using the encyclopedic method, to summarise, evaluate, contextualise and inform. For me that's the underlying issue of the debate. Hiding T 21:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Opinions about listing alternate versions

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As anyone who's read my user page knows, I advocate including everything that can be verified as being factually accurate. :) Although I suppose exceptions can be made for things that are extremely insignificant.--Marhawkman (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amalgam

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So, where are we on the Amalgam edits? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 10:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which aspect? They've been removed from the original characters' articles. Do you mean the Amalgam characters' own articles? I pretty much left those alone and was waiting to see what consensus emerged. Unfortunately, once we got all this discussion moved over here, the dialogue petered out. Your question was the first addition to this talk page in nearly two weeks.
Here's one idea: For characters that were members of teams like the Judgment League Avengers, merging all of those characters into their respective teams' articles would simplify things and make it easier for interested readers to find all the relevant information. Doczilla (talk) 10:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Seems the full articles are a side issue regarding what was being talked about here. I agree with Doc though, merging them down to fewer articles would be a good step.
As for the AV sections... we still need to hammer something out, some free form variations are getting problematic. - J Greb (talk) 16:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I rather thought that's what we were trying to do. I became part of the effort because I am rather in favor of including the more notable of the Amalgam entries (ie, those who were notable enough to have their own articles or were deemed popular enought Amalgam-ize). - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have two thoughts. 1: we can't make a proper article without the character stuff. 2: most of the character stuff doesn't need it's own article. Thus we're left with lumping them into groups. I think the AV things can be left, if factual. They don't detract from the article they're in, and they crosslink things. :) But yeah it looks like the Amalgam stuff need to be sorted into categories to make lists from.--Marhawkman (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just some observations...
While articles on characters can't without information about the character, including a limited synopsis of the character's in-universe history. An article also can't be made from only, or majoratively, from that type of plot summary. If that's what we've got, then the articles need to be merged into something else.
Marhawkman is right, the AV sections, as a concept, don't detract from the articles they're in. In practice though there are examples of where the sections have gotten out of hand. - J Greb (talk) 19:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What If?

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What if we remove the What If? listings from the characters' articles? The stories matter for the What If? article and a few others, but are rarely notable in the long run, and only in a few cases (e.g., Spider-Girl) do they have any lasting impact. I'm not planning to go through cutting them all out one at a time, but I think as a rule of thumb, they need to be removed whenever the AV sections get revised. Doczilla (talk) 19:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno. In many cases it'd make sense to trim them for size reasons. Some of them might be worth keeping if that particular what-if was centered on that character.--Marhawkman (talk) 12:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't there a list of What If issues/content somewhere? I think that that would be a better solution. I don't think a "single" appearance in a series such as What If (or even a single imaginary story (I'm stunned that there is no article for this) in World's Finest or Action Comics) should justify listing (unless it's further referenced somewhere). There comes a point where all these alternate versions are trivia. If one doubts it, let's start talking about aaaaall the different versions of Superman or Batman : ) - jc37 04:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
By extension, most of the "Elseworlds" also shouldn't get a mention. It almost gets to the point of a few lines cover all three of those story sets: "Over the years Marvel/DC has presented stories playing on variations Batman/Spider-Man/Superman/Punisher/whomever. Some examples of these are <insert a handful of stories here>." - J Greb (talk) 04:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well... "some examples" tends to balloon to a giant list. I'd just do some of the more "significant" ones. Needless to say that needs definition. I'd stick with the most often seen ones and the most different ones.--Marhawkman (talk) 11:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What If? - minimal detail

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When a What If? story is mentioned in the character's AV section, the mention should rarely have more than minimal story detail because that story is fairly irrelevant to understanding the character or knowing that character's history. Doczilla (talk) 22:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What about What if's that laid the foundation for later character concepts or storylines? Examples being adopted storylines or themes may be: Cap America in 50's (later adopted into cannon); 50's Avengers (later adopted into Agents of Atlas); Josh Gutherie found a sentinel; and basic concepts: Hulk w/ Banner's Brain, Spidey and FF (Paradise X); Spidey's living clone; Prof X becoming the Juggernaught; and arguably the Hulk Barbarian. -66.109.248.114 (talk) 00:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I said "rarely", not "never". Doczilla (talk) 04:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To a large degree that falls under the publication history for the story arcs or series that recycled the plot. And that if there's a cite that can be made linking the two, at least in most cases. - J Greb (talk) 03:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exemplar needed

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We need to develop an exemplar of how an AV section ought to look. Doczilla (talk) 10:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spiderman? :p okay maybe not. his is actually a seperate page.--Marhawkman (talk) 13:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]