Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history/Archive 2

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This page is an Archive of the discussions from WikiProject Jewish history talk page (Discussion page). (January 2007 - December 2007) - Please Do not edit!

Adolf Hitler's contacts with Jewish people

Have you ever had a close look at this strange article: Adolf Hitler's contacts with Jewish people? It's full of red links for the supposed Jews he had contact with (do they deserve articles just because they were Hitler's alleged dentist/shoe-shine-boy/chimney-sweep/whatnots etc?) It's weirdly prurient. The heading stinks. Do all the Jews killed in the Holocaust get to be in it? How about all the theories about Hitler having a Jewish ancestor, does that also count as him having "contact" with Jewish people? I doubt that the originators of this article and those who worked on it have rational objectives. It should be merged with something else involving Adolf Hitler or even deleted for its stupidity. (If not, how about Adolf Hitler's contacts with gypsies, Adolf Hitler's contacts with Italian people, Adolf Hitler's contacts with Russian people, Adolf Hitler's contacts with retarded people, Adolf Hitler's contacts with murderers this can go on forever, and then we can even create Category:Adolf Hitler's contacts with people. IZAK 02:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Anecdotal, Greece

I received the following emails. I can't think what to do with these anecdotal remarks without a lot of further dialogue, and I'm not going to be doing that. I'm posting the contact here. If someone wants to engage in dialogue with this person, email me (through Wikipedia) and I will pass along the contact address. - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[Content of emails follows]

I'm not well informed enough to post directly, but I'd like to point you to Josephus mentioning Jews in the Ionian Islands.

Now, this is controversial: a Greek diplomat who wasn't oarticularly (sic) pro-Jewish once told me the foundations of Athenian democracy resulted as a reaction to the mistreatement of two Jewish Athenians. I don't know what to make of that.

Keep up the good work.

My dad & my mom's dad hid Jews. Both my parents lost many Jewish friends.

Vasos Panagiotopoulos

[postscript in second email:] I think I read recently that Jews of Southern Italy and Egypt also spoke Greek
[End content of emails]

Is promotion of Holocaust denial and ZOG compatible with this project?

I propose to kick out User:.V. from the list of WP:JH members. The user is a promoter of Holocaust denial [1], see his other edits there and at the talk, and antisemitic conspiracy theories [2], see also its talk page. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 11:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm a very logical person. And as such, I don't spend much time on arguments that are not based in logic. As you can expect, baseless accusations are annoying to me. So I'm going to forgo any commentary on this subject for now and actually examine the edits provided which supposedly show that I promote Holocaust Denial and antisemitic conspiracy theories. I think that if someone actually read the edits, they'd surely see that this is a completely inappropriate accusation.

Edit #1 (Holocaust Denial): I found that saying that only supporters refer to "Holocaust denial" as "Holocaust revisionism" was inappropriate for several reasons. For one, it's basically impossible to know that fact. The way that the current revision makes it sound is that, unless someone is a Holocaust denier, they won't call it revisionism. I don't see how this could be stated as true. Secondly, great lengths were taken in the article to differentiate between Holocaust deniers and Holocaust revisionists. An article can't say that two names are the same thing and then contradict itself later. There are other reasons, and you can find them at the Talk page for this issue.

I also fail to see how this somehow makes me a Holocaust denial supporter. Unless David Irving really likes the phraseology "also known as"... well, that must be the case. :P

Edit #2 (ZOG): This is about how I removed the category "Antisemitic Canard" from the ZOG article. This is because "Canard" means a "deliberately false or baseless story". It runs contrary to WP:NPOV to be calling such an accusation false and baseless. NPOV says we specifically cannot take a stand on contentious issues; and calling something "deliberately false" is taking a stand in the most direct way possible. It also violates WP:CAT. It's furthermore made redundant by the category of "Antisemitism". What Humus didn't tell you is that currently, there are more editors favoring removing the category than keeping it in. It seems that after not being able to have a majority on the talk page, he's moved on to smear attacks elsewhere. I have to say, that's pretty sad. You can read more about the issue, including in-depth reasoning behind the policy applied, here I think one user said it best when he said:

"So far as a canard is defined as a "deliberately false story", I can only believe it to be a huge leap of faith to assume all individuals who, for reasons ranging from paranoia to a plainer misinterpretation of historical facts, espouse a belief in this so called ZOG do so only to consciously mislead others and promote hatred. You'd have to interview all people who accept those ideas (and possibly make sure they give a truthful reply) in order to assess the true reasons behind their beliefs." - User: Ishikawa Minoru

I find it really disappointing that Humus has to pull the Holocaust denial card. I also find it very interesting that Humus decides to post this less than 12 hours (actually, I checked specifically: approximately one hour) since I removed that category from the ZOG article as per the Request for Comment discussion. (Of course, the removal was then reverted immediately as a minor edit, which contradicts the minor edit policy.) Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't seem like it. Seems more like some kind of harassment to me, which has arisen out of a content dispute. I don't know if this is sincere, WP:POINT, or what, but I'm going to keep assuming good faith. .V. (talk) 16:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

This charge is completely unfair and I find it very disappointing that you should make it. .V.'s stated concern is with censorship. If you look at user:.V.#The Principles I Edit By, this should be perfectly clear. .V.'s conduct as an editor, as far as I can see, has been entirely consistent with this stated concern and there is no particular reason to believe that .V. believes in ZOGs, David Irving and all the rest of it.

However, even if my personal judgement of .V.'s beliefs and character is wrong, I consider .V.'s actions as an editor to be consistent with the stated aims and values of Wikipedia and therefore I broadly support them. I can assure you that I emphatically do not believe in Holocaust denial, ZOGs, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or the rest of it, and that I personally consider David Irving and his like to be a cruel and devious demagogues. Equally strongly, I believe that if phenomena such as the Holocaust are treated as historical events, rather than as unquestionable myths, they may yield useful insights. Bruno Bettelheim understood this, even though he had himself been interned in a Nazi concentration camp, when he questioned aspects of the Anne Frank story. Hannah Arendt also understood this when she wrote Eichmann in Jerusalem.

Many editors of Wikipedia have chosen to be contactable be email. Sometimes contacting an editor off-wiki is a good way to resolve misunderstandings before they escalate. I think that if you had followed this route in this case we might all (including you of course) be feeling a lot less angry and upset right now. I'm not asking you to be any less passionate and adamant in your opinions about the Holocaust, ZOGs or anything else of that kind. I'm simply asking you to be more aware of how easy it is, when we feel passionately about something, to jump to unjustified conclusions.

As I understand it, your fear is, in essence, that if views that are false and objectionable are fairly represented in Wikipedia they are likely to be more widely believed. I sincerely believe this view to be mistaken because I believe that a well-balanced article will encourage the kind of critical reading that will enable people to disinguish what is true from what is not. I cannot speak for .V. of course, but I would be surprised if .V. would disagree with my point of view on this. If you and .V. are prepared to do the hard work of dialogue then you will definitely be able to find the common ground between you and to find a more amicable way to live with your differences. And Wikipedia will be much the better for it. Ireneshusband 18:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Ireneshusband, you can't compare the work of Bettelheim and Arendt with the posturing of Holocaust deniers. There's no intellectual content to the latter.

My main encounter with .V. was on Template_talk:The_Holocaust#Controvery_Section, where he argued for adding Holocaust denial to the Holocaust template. The problem is not so much that he argued for it, as the way he did it; he was trolling, in my view, and we'd be at it still if we hadn't stopped feeding him. Out of 724 edits he's made overall, only 148 of them have been to the encyclopedia. Most of his talk page comments have been to (from the top) Holocaust denial, Zionist Occupation Government, Criticism of Holocaust denial, International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, and 9/11 conspiracy theories. He's also turning up at other articles related to Jews to help revert on behalf of known troublemakers.

.V.'s first edit after he'd set up his user page was to add the citation needed template, so he's not a new user. His first edit to a talk page as .V. was to Talk:Minstrel show, where he argued that slaves in the U.S. should not be referred to as Americans. A previous user arguing the same position was Velocicaptor (talk · contribs) who has also edited as 71.240.17.138 (talk · contribs) [3]; the latter's sole edit was "What a crock! Free negroes could not vote or own land, therefore they weren't "Americans," with the header "Shoot from the lip articles." Velocicaptor restored a reference to Hitler in the New International Encyclopedia (an article he created in July 2005 as 71.240.7.68 (talk · contribs)) calling him "the most influential person of the 20th century," [4] then argued on talk that Hitler was "charismatic." [5] User:Velocicaptor was set up on August 22, 2006 and edited until September 24. User:.V. was set up on August 31, 2006 and edited sporadically until the beginning of November, then stepped it up a bit. Perhaps .V. could say whether he's Velocicaptor, and which other accounts/IP addresses he has edited as. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

This is my only account ever on Wikipedia, although I was editing off and on (mostly vandalism reverts) for about a month before I made my account. I had an account on Wikiquote which I forget the username of. As I recall, I started a quote page. Hmm, I wonder why most of my talk page discussion has been on controversial topics... maybe because the topic is controversial and requires more discussion? No, it couldn't be that, too obvious...

Anyway, I find this absurd. Your comments seem to be directed at this "Velocicaptor" user, not me. If you think I'm him, why don't you submit a request for Checkuser instead of bringing out baseless accusations? It seems in your extensive investigation, you forgot to look for any evidence that would actually prove your claims. Dates for joining and such is neat and all, but let's see some actual proof here.

As for this Velocicaptor, I don't know the user. I do recall the discussion however, and I believe my logic was that, until given freedom, the slaves were captured people from Africa. Would you say that American POWs in the Vietnam War were Vietnamese? No way. However, if the POW was given freedom and decided to stay in Vietnam... that's a different story.

So please, go do a Checkuser before bringing these unsubstantiated claims against me. .V. (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

All you had to say was "no", yet you launched into a lengthy reply. Why are you a member of this project? Where have you contributed positively to the project, and where can I find discussion about Jewish history on your end? I'm a little confused as to why you are a member. What do you have to offer? —Viriditas | Talk 00:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

All I had to say was "no"... when someone is going around calling me a Holocaust denier and trying to get me booted from Wikiprojects, I think I'm entitled to a response.

Anyway, I'm a member of this project because one of the fields I'm interested in is Jewish history. I find it interesting, and as such, it's always been a hobby of mine. I'm particularly knowledgeable in the subject, although not in a professional sense. I was under the impression that when you join a Wikiproject, you make an effort to improve articles related to Jewish History. However, I was not aware of any kind of time limit or required rate of edits. I have a busy life, so it's not always easy for me to take time out of my day to edit everything I want to edit. Might I ask, what's the required rate of edits (per month, week, whatever) to remain in the project? .V. (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You are indeed entitled to respond, but you replied to only some of my concerns. I'm also concerned about the edits you admit to, and that most of your editing has been to the talk pages of Holocaust denial, Zionist Occupation Government, Criticism of Holocaust denial, and International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust. These are not articles about Jewish history, but about attempts to corrupt and deny Jewish history. It's therefore understandable that members of the project should be confused by your involvment here, and replying to our concerns by asking "Might I ask, what's the required rate of edits (per month, week, whatever) to remain in the project?" isn't helping to dispel the sense that you're trolling. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Because I am in this WikiProject, I can't edit those articles for some reason? I've noticed you've made edits to several of those articles as well. The people responding to me on those talk pages (well, some of them, including you) are part of this project also. So why the double-standard? .V. (talk) 01:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

We don't only edit those pages. Can you give any examples of articles you've edited that scholars of Jewish history might see as part of the study of Jewish history? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why that should be a concern. Do I have to edit certain articles now? .V. (talk) 01:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You're being asked for evidence of interests in areas that this project covers. If you have no such interests, it's not clear why you want to join. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Given that most (I think most, maybe all) of the edits you're citing are within the examples of categories given by the project, I think that counts (as I said below.) If that's not enough for you, I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it. .V. (talk) 02:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to note that on the front page of this project, it says examples of categories which are included. The articles you cite seem to be within those categories. So what's the problem here? .V. (talk) 01:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You said you were interested in Jewish history and had knowledge of the subject. I'm curious, putting the 20th and 21st century aside, what particular aspect of Jewish history interests you? —Viriditas | Talk 02:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm particularly interested in ancient Jewish history. I first stumbled upon it when I was learning Latin. I remember translating a bunch of information about the topic during that course. At the time I wasn't familiar with the ancient history behind the Jews, and as a result, I decided to look into it further. I found it very interesting. .V. (talk) 02:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you give concrete examples of your interests? And if you're interested in ancient Jewish history, why the focus on Holocaust denial and ZOG? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Which aspects of ancient Jewish history would you have translated from Latin? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you give me an example of what you're looking for? I'm not quite sure what you want. As for the translations, I'll see what I can do about remembering specifics. It's been a while since I did those translations. Probably about... 7 or 8 years? Anyway, several were about Jewish people. I'm pretty sure they may have been based on actual events, but I believe they were created by the publisher of the textbook for the sake of providing a translation. There was also a first-hand account of the events of Masada, as I recall. .V. (talk) 02:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

People beginning Latin usually translate Roman texts about Roman society, for obvious reasons. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the program I did was a series of books consisting of stories which read like a novel in that it had chapters and an overarching plot. For example, one of the books was about a philosopher who lived in Pompeii before the eruption. As the books progressed, the Latin got harder and harder. More historical material became interspersed through as time went on, such as the Masada piece. Eventually we ended up translating Latin texts like the Aeneid.

But, it seems I forgot to answer your question about ZOG/Denial. When I search Wikipedia, I tend to surf from similar article to similar article. For example, I did a bit of restructuring on New World Order (Conspiracy), and followed a link to the VeriChip article and reverted vandalism, then followed another link elsewhere. As I recall, I came across the ZOG/Denial articles after I reverted vandalism on a page and then found these (as you can see, most of my early edits are vandalism reverts. I'm quite an avid recent changes patroller.) Because I have open discussions on the talk pages, I've been hovering around those articles recently. .V. (talk) 02:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, since your interest is in Category:Ancient Jewish Roman history, you could help the project by going through those articles and categories, adding assessment or project tags, adding critical comments for improvement, determine image and move requests, and check naming convetions. You could then report back to the project on your findings. —Viriditas | Talk 04:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I'll check that category out when I have the chance. .V. (talk) 04:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is an example of .V.'s "assessment" related to Jewish history: [6]. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 04:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

That's an excellent example of the problem with Humus' allegations. It seems that neutrality is being interpreted as favoring a side. Changing an article to have more neutral language does not mean I support a particular viewpoint. I think the edit speaks for itself. Saying "widely criticized" without a source is inherently weasely, as per WP:WEASEL. It's inherently vague; widely criticized in academic circles? With historians? With the general public? It also is very similar to the "Some/Few/All" section of WP:WEASEL. Also, it's true that the IHR covers topics other than Holocaust Denial/Revisionism. The revision before my edit made it seem as if this was all they did. If you don't believe me, go check out their website. .V. (talk) 05:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to note that no editor other than Humus had a problem with this statement for about 2 months. It was in the article since 20 November and was removed about 25 minutes ago by Humus. Other editors even fixed corrections within the statement, showing that obviously people noticed it was there. So it seems it was an acceptable edit for months... odd that it would suddenly become objectionable now. .V. (talk) 05:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

May I recommend making some kind of contribution to the project sooner rather than later? Otherwise, some people will question your Holocaust-related edits in light of your membership. As it stands, working on assessing articles in the above category will both help this project and show your good faith. If you go back to making contentious ZOG and Holocaust denial-related edits prior to doing this, I don't see why your name should continue to be listed as a member of this project. Feel free to remove it if you want. —Viriditas | Talk 04:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to, but I'm preparing for a trip out of town. I probably won't have time to do any major editing very much until I return. As for continuing my current discussions, I hardly think that discussing contentious issues merits anyone from getting booted out of a WikiProject. I'd like to reach a conclusion to those discussions before starting anything new, anyway. .V. (talk) 05:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

What are your arrival and departure dates? You seem to have plenty of time for discussion, but little for helping the project. You've declared your topic of interest, and I've pointed you in the direction of contributing constructively to the project. Now, you say you have to go out of town. I would like to bring your attention to the nature of Wikipedia editing patterns. Editors who have been here for any length of time recognize contribution patterns that emerge out of seemingly random data. Geogre's Law is but one example found in AfD, while others may be found in topic-oriented discussions and article contributions. In your case, a pattern is emerging which is diametrically opposed to the goals of this project. If you can't find the time to contribute in your area of interest, again I ask, why are you a member? —Viriditas | Talk 05:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I like to finish things I start before moving on to new things. As for going out of town, I'll be leaving Wednesday and getting back Monday. I may have internet access, but I'm not sure. But before I respond further, might I ask why my edits are "diametrically opposed"? .V. (talk) 05:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed your name from the membership listing of this project. Your contribution history as well as your comments on this page, make it clear that you have no interest in this project. Have a good trip. —Viriditas | Talk 13:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow... you won't even explain why my edits are diametrically opposed to the group. Why's that? Maybe because you can't? It seems like baseless assertions have won the day. Well, I guess that's all-too-common on the Internet, and I shouldn't have expected anything different here. Maybe I'm just used to people using reason instead of just doing things when they feel like it.

Well, good luck in your project (because it really seems to be "your" project, as you have this amazing power to remove people from it because you feel like doing so.) .V. (talk) 15:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

(L-shift) And here is .V.'s attempt to remove Category:Anti-Semitic canards: [7]. All in the interest of NPOV, of course. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 05:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

A Canard: "a false and baseless claim."

NPOV: We can't take a stance on controversial subjects.

There's no way that calling an allegation "false and baseless" is NPOV. This was the issue we were discussing on the talk page of ZOG. There's a majority of opinions in the RfC that say it should be removed from the article, do you care to comment? We can go to mediation if you like, as I noted on your talk page.

The CfD passed with a "no consensus" vote, not a keep. Enough said. .V. (talk) 05:52, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest the reader to take a look at the category in question. A certain pattern of .V.'s view of Jewish history emerges. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 06:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason why you never respond to anything I say, but rather keep talking as if no reply was given? I do encourage the reader to take a look at the category in question, along with the NPOV policy and a dictionary definition of canard. Simple enough. The reader should also examine the discussion on the ZOG article about this category, and how a majority of users are in favor of removing it. .V. (talk) 06:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The basic rules would be:

• Is the editor compatible with Wikipedia. If so, they are compatible with the project, if not they are not.
• Their personal views are not important. Remember that original research isn't allowed, so it doesn't matter what their views are, as they aren't going in.
• Don't be prejudiced about someone's editing, just because of the views they hold; they may still very well be capable of editing without prejudice. I dare say that anti-holocaust-denial supporters also have a view they would like to push, but many still edit neutrally.
• No-one has a right to expel anyone else from a WikiProject.
• If they are trying to bias wikipedia articles, that's a matter for RFC, not discussion here.

--User talk:FDuffy 20:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC) If you are a holocaust denier then you should be BANNED from a jewish project!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with you entirely, FDuffy. But if someone's going to hassle me this much so they can WP:OWN a Wikiproject, they can have it for all I care. .V. _[Talk|Email] 04:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Location of the Jewish quarter in old Kaifeng

Does anyone on here know where the original Jewish quarter was in comparison to other famous land marks in 12th century Kaifeng City, Henan province, China? This was the home of the Kaifeng Jews. (Ghostexorcist 19:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC))

Raoul Wallenberg

Raoul Wallenberg is up for a featured article. Please read the article and leave critical comments at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Raoul Wallenberg. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 14:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Carter's Peace not Apartheid

I'm hoping some of you might take a look at a dispute between myself and NYScholar at the bottom of the Palestine Peace not Apartheid discussion page (Section 19: "Criticism vs. Carter's response") and weigh in. To me it seems that the main article is very much not neutral and skewed toward's Carter's POV, but NYScholar is trying to reject my proposed changes. Any input would be appreciated. Gni 16:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Music of the holocaust

A question at the reference desk demonstrated WP's lack of content regarding Music of the holocaust. (See Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Music_of_the_holocaust_and_other). Some red links brought to our attention by Antandrus (whose answer at the link posted above includes more relevant information): Dawid Ajzensztadt, Dawid Beigelman, Vladimir Durmashkin, Israel Glatstein, Jakub Glatstein, Jósef Koffler, Joachim Mendelson, Marian Neuteich, Nochem Shternheim, and Izrael Szajewicz. I didn't find a more suitable project for posting this observation. ---Sluzzelin talk 08:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for posting this here! Yes indeed; important topic, and it does not yet seem to have much coverage. I may be able to help some in this area myself. Antandrus (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I have started an article: List of composers associated with the holocaust. While it is in construction it will be here [8] Feel free to add to it now. I know this won’t help fix the red links, but I hope it will help consolidate the information. S.dedalus 06:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Argentina

Apparently we have a major discrepancy on the Jewish population of Argentina. - Jmabel | Talk 20:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Peer review for Jerusalem

Some input from members of WikiProject Jewish history is requested in regards to a peer review for the Jerusalem article:

Jerusalem

I have been working on this article for the past three months and I'm hoping to put this up for featured article status sometime in the near future. Essentially, I'm looking for a critique of the article and suggestions for things that might need to be rectified prior to submitting it for a featured article candidacy.

• I was a bit worried about the length of the article, but I personally feel it is okay since much of the kilobyte-age comes from the large number of sources rather than from over-the-top text. However, if you disagree, please do offer up suggestions for shortening the article.
• Because I know the Jerusalem article is (somewhat) controversial, I want to make sure any issues with neutrality (especially in regards to the capital issue) are squared away before making a final submittal. I believe I did a good job, but perhaps something is subtly biased that I did not notice.
• A good look at the prose would be great. I just finished writing the last section, so I haven't gotten the chance to do a thorough proofread; I'll proceed to do that this week while this peer review takes place, but by all means chip in.
• I want to ensure the facts are correct. I have never been to Jerusalem, so my writing comes exclusively from extensive research. If something looks factually incorrect, please fix it or make a note of it (although please use caution if the change will conflict with a source). If a source was misinterpreted, please please fix it or make a note of it.
• I want to ensure foreign-language words are used and/or translated properly, since I'm not knowledgeable in Hebrew or Arabic.
• I'm not sure what to say about local, city, or municipal government in Jerusalem. I may have to keep it short, but if anyone can think of any ideas, that would be great.

You are, of course, welcome to assist in other areas as well. Thanks in advance for any help you may provide. -- tariqabjotu 16:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Any chance of more citations from the Holy Scriptures? WikiNew 16:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Where do you believe additional citations from religious texts would be useful? -- tariqabjotu 17:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• Looks great overall; I have a few POV issues, but I'm sure these are just oversights, and I certainly do not make any accusations as to your opinions or anything like that; we must work together to make these sorts of things as objective as possible, and it's a tough business. I just have a few minor stylistic questions. Rather than go in and mess with your wording myself, I thought I should let you work on your own project.
  1. "and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre among different sects of Christians." -- different from what? would this be better as "some sects" or "various sects"?
  2. "while majority Palestinian areas dominate the north, east and south of the Old City" I think I get what you mean - "areas where there is a Palestinian majority" rather than "the majority of areas which are Palestinian/ majority of Palestinian areas" - but this is a bit ambiguous as it reads now.
  3. The section on The Temple Periods ends by saying that for over 18 centuries Jerusalem was not the capital of any independent state; I like this. It's accurate, it's dramatic, and it's an interesting historical fact. But I think that as this could be taken as a political (i.e. POV biased) statement, it should perhaps be balanced by a brief description of the fact that no independent state called Palestine has ever existed and/or of the Greco-Roman origins of the word.
  4. The last few sentences of the State of Israel section in the history also seems to be a bit tilted. Perhaps a slight expansion would be pertinent on the problems with the city being split, and the causes of the Six-Day War. As it stands right now, I feel it reads as though Israel's capture of East Jerusalem was entirely selfish and vicious, and that its rule/sovereignty over the united city is somehow unfair or unjust.
  5. A more explicit mention of the Three Hills (Mount of Olives, Mount Zion, and Temple Mount) and Three Valleys might be good in the geography section.
  6. In the Capital section, "only two members of the United Nations — Costa Rica and El Salvador — have their embassies located within the city limits of Jerusalem...and several consulates within the city itself." Are these consulates of Costa Rica and Ecuador, or consulates of other nations? Seems unclear from the wording.

Thanks for your hard work. I truly do apologize for introducing POV issues into this, but I think a few minor changes here and there would be good to ensure the objectivity of the article's message. LordAmeth 19:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'll get back to you on a couple of these points, but it may be best for you to address a few yourself because I don't see the ambiguity with some of them, particularly with your second point. I added the number of consulates in regards to your second point, but I didn't specifically mention that those consulates did not include Costa Rica and El Salvador (since it wouldn't make sense for a country to have an embassy and a consulate in the same city). I fixed the first point, but take issue with doing something about the third point (because mentioning Palestine rather superfluously might sound like a subtle desire for a nation-state by the name of Palestine). -- tariqabjotu 15:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've eliminated the ambiguity I had perceived in the "majority areas" phrase. As for the thing about Jerusalem not being the capital for 18 centuries, all I'm saying is that inclusion of this fact could be interpreted as an argument against the legitimacy of Jewish/Israeli claims on it as their capital. By explaining that there has never been an independent state called Palestine, you discount their claims on it as well, balancing the POV. That's my thought. LordAmeth 12:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I would shorten the religious significance section. The sub pages should be sufficient for most of what is there. That would help with the length issue. I might also link to category: neighborhoods of Jerusalem somewhere. --יהושועEric 03:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree on the point regarding shortening the Religious Significance section. In comparison to the five articles on the religious significance of Jerusalem, the section is quite short, only touching upon the most basic facts about the significance of the city in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I'm thinking that perhaps the History section could be cut down, but Jerusalem does indeed have a very long history; the summary in the Jerusalem article is much shorter than the full piece at History of Jerusalem. However, I encourage you to make whatever changes you feel are necessary to cut down on the length. At some later date, I'll calculate how much readable prose is in the article (so we can compare the article with WP:LENGTH), but I'm rather confident there won't be a tremendous issues since there are a heck of a lot of sources that do not count toward the readable prose total. For comparison, this is 63kB of prose. As long as this article is less than 50-55kB of prose (WP:LENGTH actually says less than 60kB), any objection based on length alone would not be warranted. -- tariqabjotu 15:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I determined that the article in its current state is 34 kB of readable prose, well within the limits of WP:LENGTH. See User:Tariqabjotu/Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 04:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)\

It is important to distingush between the Old City and the New or West and East Jerusalem. Fbc215 18:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Kraków pogrom

Hi, could someone please take a look at the Kraków pogrom article? I've recently tagged it as part of this project, and there has been some discussion regarding sources and its status as a pogrom due to the confirmed number of deaths being one. I would appreciate if someone could stick their head in for a look? Thanks SGGH 08:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Jerusalem on WP:FAC

Jerusalem is currently undergoing a featured article candidacy. The FAC page is transcluded below (feel free to remove it from this page if the FAC gets too long):

Jerusalem

Peer review SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

You may be looking for Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jerusalem/archive2 which was originally at this page.

Self-nomination The Jerusalem article is comprehensive and very well-referenced, fulfilling all of the featured article criteria. Although there has been some controversy in the past about the idea of Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, the article has remained relatively quiet and stable, with objections being very rare. The article presents the city of Jerusalem in a neutral light with "brilliant" prose. The article does not use any fair-use images and it does not appear to violate any standards set forth by WikiProjects and Wikipedia in general. Before anyone gawks at the length shown when hitting the edit this page link, I would like to note that there are only about thirty-four kilobytes of readable prose; that is well within the "rule of thumb" established by Wikipedia:Article size. -- tariqabjotu 04:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Tariq, per the FAC instructions, you forgot to identify this as a self-nomination; you're the top contributor to the article according to page history stats. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Without going into great detail about the unnecessary nature of the red text... I thought that instruction had been removed (and it really ought to be; it's not like it's my article and it shouldn't make a difference whether the nominator has worked on an FAC). -- tariqabjotu 02:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. The reference for it being the largest city seems very strange indeed. Don't they have a census?--Pharos 08:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, I know; I agree there are too many sources for that one fact (there is a census) and for the fact regarding Jerusalem being a Jewish center since the 10th century BCE. Take a look at #Sources (January 2007) from the talk page. -- tariqabjotu 11:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I have shortened the references in question accordingly. -- tariqabjotu 13:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I've re-lengthened them. Unfortunately, this claim was the subject of a lengthy debate and edit war that lasted almost two months, until sufficient high-quality sources were provided so that it was indisputable. Sadly, certain topics are going to be disputed ad nauseam until they are proven to death, and the coffin nailed and chained shut with a giant padlock. This happens to be one of them. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
      • A response to Jayjg has been provided on the talk page of the article. -- tariqabjotu 20:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support, after tariqabjotu's extensive efforts (disclosure - I've been a very minor contributer to the article, mainly on the talk page). okedem 08:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Just a note, for compliance with FAC instructions; Okedem is in the top 10 contributors to the article, according to page history statistics. (Nothing personal, okedem; I'd just like to see better compliance in general with the instructions at FAC.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

As flattering as that might be, it's only by number of edits, not by content. Almost all of those edits were reverts of vandalism. I've added very little content to the article. okedem 20:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Interesting article on a great city. Some suggestions: "Sports" subsection should be pruned. Which clubs won in which year is not necessary in this article (years are important in individual club articles). You can simply delete the subsection, and include the names of popular sports and prominent clubs in a paragraph at the end of "Culture" (before the subsection "Religious subsection"). The short paragraph on "Israel Festival" may be merged with the upper paragraph, and a separate short paragraph on sports may be created.

It would be nice if some crime statistics are added in the "Demographics" section. The one-sentence paragraph on the use of "Jerusalem stone", why is that added in "climate"? Any impact of climate on the use of the stone?

I have a feeling that the article is over-wikilinked. Have had some talks with User:Tariqabjotu in this regard. Comments from other users would help in this matter. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the amount of links is fine (not over-linked). I don't think a reader should have to go back looking for a link, when he just wants some information about a specific subject (and so doesn't read the whole thing in one sitting). okedem 08:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the championship years from the Sports section, although I was a bit apprehensive about removing the sub-section altogether; it seems to go against the article structure established at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities. I'll find some information on crime in Jerusalem a bit later (unless someone else gets to it first) and add crime as a sub-section under demographics. -- tariqabjotu 14:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll have to get around to this in about sixteen hours. I'm having trouble finding crime stats in English. I was able to find this page which seems to relate to crime statistics, but I don't know Hebrew. I'm can't seem to find the English translation and the search box on the English version of the Police website is not working. -- tariqabjotu 04:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

These are crime statistics, and they do have statistics for the different districts (like the Jerusalem district), but only in absolute numbers (like "number of murder cases"), not anything comparative (like "number of robberies per 1,000 residents"). Not very useful. okedem 09:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I do not think starting the article with "Jerusalem is Israel's capital" is the most npov way to handle the dispute over Jerusalems' status. As a suggestion, I point you to Encarta's intro for Jerusalem which I think handles it very well:

Jerusalem (Hebrew Yerushalayim; Arabic Al Quds), city lying at the intersection of Israel and the West Bank, located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, about 50 km (about 30 mi) southeast of the Israeli city of Tel Aviv-Yafo. Jerusalem is composed of two distinct sections: West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem, which is inhabited almost entirely by Jews, has been part of Israel since Israel was established in 1948. East Jerusalem, which has a large Palestinian Arab population and recently constructed Jewish areas, was held by Jordan between 1949 and the Six-Day War of 1967. During the war, East Jerusalem was captured by Israel, which has administered it since. Israel claims that Jerusalem is its capital, but Palestinians dispute the claim and the United Nations has not recognized it as such. Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider Jerusalem a holy city, and it contains sites sacred to all three religions. --A.Garnet 13:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to turn this into another "Capital of Israel" discussion, but concisely - Israel doesn't "claim" Jerusalem is its capital. Jerusalem is, de facto and de jure, its capital. It is the seat of government, parliament, supreme court, president's and PM's quarters. Israel has designated it as capital, and it serves as capital - thus it is capital. International recognition is not a prerequisite for a capital. okedem 14:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe a more than signficant part of the international community does not accept Israel administering East Jeursalem as part of its capital, therefore this is a significant political dispute, enough to warrant us handling the intro with a bit more sophistication (certainly for an FA). I believe there is nothing wrong with a similar intro to the Encarta suggestion I made above. --A.Garnet 14:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

This has been an age-old issue on this article. See Talk:Jerusalem/capital, Talk:Jerusalem#Capital of Israel, Talk:Jerusalem#Capital, "largest city" out of intro, Talk:Jerusalem#RfC, among other places. Take that as you wish. However, let me point you to the definition of capital. On Wikipedia capital and seat of government are two different articles, but they are essentially the same thing (the former article defines capital as the principal city or town associated with a country's government). According to Merriam-Webster, the capital is a city serving as a seat of government. Well, those definitions certainly apply here. The executive, judicial, and legislative branches for Israel are all located within the city of Jerusalem. There is a footnote attached to the statement in the first line. On this topic, I might advocate saying seat of government instead of capital or closing the gap between capital and the mention of the controversy. However, the very act of suggesting this could result in me being shunned from society. As usual. -- tariqabjotu 14:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the use of seat of government is a good alternative. What do you mean you will be "shunned from society" for suggesting this? --A.Garnet 14:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Essentially, one would see what boils down to we've discussed this before; now get over it. The problem is that this dispute has been muddied up by accusations that people advocating mentioning capital without qualification are pro-Israel, Jewish Zionists, etc., etc., whereas people against it are trying to make Jerusalem the capital of Palestine or are anti-Semitic, pro-Muslim, etc., etc. There have been times when this mud-slinging has been avoided (especially recently), but it's still a problem. I believe seat of government is the best way to keep the important fact in the intro without having to over-emphasize the controversy. In my opinion, it's neutral, but others see it as dancing around the topic. Note that prior to September 2006, "capital" was not mentioned in the first sentence of the article. Additionally, an RfC from January was inconclusive. -- tariqabjotu 14:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont want this FAC to be reduced to a dispute over the intro, but imo, if there is a better more encylopedic alternative, then it should be used regardless of what people "want". Seat of government is an excellent alternative and I would support it. Thanks, --A.Garnet 15:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Other alternatives raised included saying "national capital" and linking to Positions on Jerusalem. That could be a reasonable idea as well since most people know what a "capital" is and so the link to Positions on Jerusalem might be more useful. If I remember correctly, okedem (talk · contribs) agreed with an intro that included that (see this section), although I'm unsure if (s)he was aware of that link. So for clarification the ideas proposed over the past six or seven months have included....

1. Current phrasing.
2. "capital", with link to Positions on Jerusalem
3. seat of government, instead of capital
4. Moving "capital" out of the first sentence
5. Closing the gap between saying "capital" and mentioning the related controversy

To be honest, all I care about is getting this article featured. I can live with the current phrasing if most people are okay with it, but I get the feeling that that is not entirely the case. On a side note, however, I'd like to point out that, as far as I know, the "international community" has rejected Jerusalem as the capital of Israel as a form of punishment. In the same manner many Arab nations refuse to recognize Israel as a sovereign nation as a form of punishment (for what...?), much of the international community refuses to accept Jerusalem as Israel's capital -- even though it is -- due to the annexation of East Jerusalem (against some UN resolution somewhere, I believe). I think we may have trouble with the first sentence of this article being used in a Today's Featured Article Main Page blurb, as some important information is missing, but the footnote should suffice here. The expectation that someone would at least read the entire introduction (which does mention the controversy) is not unreasonable. Additionally, the statement by itself that Jerusalem is Israel's capital is not incorrect. So again, I'm okay with the current wording, but okay if a great number of people see it as problematic. -- tariqabjotu 15:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Attempting a compromise here, I added seat of government, without removing "capital", to emphasize the correctness of the term capital. -- tariqabjotu 16:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

My opinion on this is: We shouldn't use any phrasing which does not include the word "capital", since that's simply evasive. We use the word capital for every other capital city in the world, and Jerusalem shouldn't be any different. We should state the fact that it is capital, and it should be in the first sentence, as it is a major function. Despite all objections, going by the definition for "capital", Jerusalem is one.

Linking to "Positions..." seems like a good idea.

Is there a difference between "capital" and "national capital"? okedem 17:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is a difference between "capital" and "national capital". -- tariqabjotu 17:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see how to close the gap between "capital", and the controversy, since that's a whole paragraph, and I don't want to flatten the issue to just a few words (like "its status is disputed"), when we can be far more informative. Honestly, I think the current phrasing is the best possible. I know the "capital" issue bothers many people, but it's just stating the facts, not saying that it's okay or anything. okedem 17:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the current wording is probably the best possible. I definitely believe that any Main Page blurb that mentions capital should link to Positions on Jerusalem since the footnote, for obvious reasons, cannot be put on the Main Page. But, on placing the link in the article itself, I'm indifferent; we may have done enough already. -- tariqabjotu 17:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

How about stating "...capital, as claimed by Israeli law..." (with footnote, of course).--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no. I say this again - by any common definition of the word "capital", Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It's not claimed, it just is, regardless of how right or internationally recognized it might be. okedem 19:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont find your position constructive okedem, you do not seem willing to accept anything that does not introduce Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, regardless of its internationally disputed status. Put simply, we cannot introduce Jeursalem on the front page of Wikipedia in front of 2m+ people as the capital of Israel, not when that capital entails the administration of an occupied part of the city whoses status remains unclear and the centre of much political debate. This is very simple, the solution is very simple as has been shown by myself and Tariq's suggestion. Now imo if this solution cannot be implemented because it will risk edit warring, and we must rely on a pov wording open to controversy, then this article is not stable enough to warrant FA status (which is a shame because the rest of the article is very good). --A.Garnet 20:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You do not seem to address my point. A capital is a simple term, and it has a definition, which you can find in any dictionary and encyclopedia. Following that definition, Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Writing it any other way would distort the truth, and mislead the readers. It's current status and function as capital is reality, and not open to debate. Whether it should be under Israel's control, whether it's just and legal - that's another thing.

The controversy is handled well in the last paragraph of the lead. For the front page we can use something like this:

"Jerusalem ... is Israel's capital, and largest city (though its legal status is disputed, see Positions on Jerusalem)...". okedem 20:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

<- (de-intent) Exactly. The Main Page blurb does not have to be the first paragraph of the article. Additionally, a suitable Main Page blurb is not a pre-requisite for featured article status. The threat of preventing featured status from being granted is not constructive at all. -- tariqabjotu 21:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

My friend, I have made no threat in preventing this from reaching FA. I have said on the contrary that I would support your earlier suggestion and that the article is very good. For me however, no reputable encylopedia would begin an article on Jerusalem stating it as Israel's capital unless explained within the greater conflict. I'll leave this for other editors to comment lest you think I have some kind of interest in preventing this from reaching FA. --A.Garnet 22:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure where I should put this comment, but here willdo: Just want to say that the point in the sentence about Jerusalem's status as Israel's capital not being recognised by the UN is irrelevant - recognition of capitals (any capitals) is a bilateral matter between governments. If you want to make the point I think you're trying to make, you need to say something about the number of countries that have located their embassies in Jerusalem (not many). PiCo 10:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment "Demographics" would be comprehensive with coverage of population density, literacy, sex ratio etc. Crime scenario is not that important. Languages spoken should be mentioned.
• "Culture" Can we have something on the cuisine, dress (clothing)? Any indigenous sports? Any products unique to Jerusalem which are probably sold in some alleyways in the Old City (just guessing :)).
• "Economy" What is the primary source of income? Tourism or service sector? Or may be both are equally contributive.

Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps some of the information under Demographics would be nice, but I want to warn you that those statistics may be difficult to find. As those pieces are tailored to the Indian city Wikiproject, I have a feeling they are easy to find in India's census. The same might not be true for Israel and Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 15:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. Ok, if data is not available, then of course that cannot be added. Please have a try. And what about the cultural bits like clothing and cuisine etc?--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Please try this, this, and related documents. How did they generate the data here? Here is a book. Someone may find it in some library. However, IMO, data is really hard to get. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you mean to say data is really hard to get? If you meant really easy... um... I have been doing some searching and found very little prior to posting the comment above. Regardless, the first couple of sources look good. The book does not look like something that could be found in a standard library. Regarding the link in the middle, I stumbled upon that earlier but was dismayed that the stats included the West Bank and Gaza. If I remember correctly (from online sources I mean), the last census was in 1995. I'll try to find that and also look for later estimates, since 1995 information is a bit outdated. -- tariqabjotu 19:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen the things I added today to "demographics" and "economy"? The CBS has some good data. okedem 20:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright; I'll take a look at those. I'll be out of town until Sunday night (~ 00:00 UTC Monday). I may have Internet access while I'm away, but I cannot guarantee that. During that time, feel free (as always) to improve the article. -- tariqabjotu 23:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I really did mean that data is really hard to get. I did some search, and presumed you might have done much more extensive search than what I did. I must clarify that I did not make any sarcastic comment. I am only trying so that the article becomes even more comprehensive. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support Its very very well done. Its very well cited, and I'm highly impressed with this article Max 07:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Object switched to "support", see below. The fact that a large part of the city lies in the occupied territories should be explicitly mentioned in the introduction, as that is a central topic of debate, not only relating to Jerusalem itself but also to the Israel-Palestinian conflict as a whole. The statement from the introduction Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighborhoods that form East Jerusalem has been particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state is not explicit enough. Given that even "occupied territories" is a hotly debated term it may be difficult to find a suitably NPOV way of phrasing it, but nevertheless it's a very important fact and must not be weaseled around. Kosebamse 11:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

  I don't understand your objection. The issue is mentioned right there in the lead, and is not "weaseled around". Do you want it to be phrased differently? Make a suggestion, then. The issue is also handled in "History-->The state of Israel", and the whole section of "Government". okedem 11:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

  Where is it "mentioned right there in the lead"? The only reference that I can find is the sentence that I cited and that is IMO not sufficient. There is no link there to the capture of East Jerusalem in 1967, to the law that formalised the annexation, or to the occupied territories in general. I am thinking of an explicit phrase along the lines of "situated partially in the occupied territories of West Bank (see also Jerusalem Law and Positions on Jerusalem)". I certainly would not insist on a particular way of phrasing it, but the matter should not be mentioned en passant and without a relevant link or two. Kosebamse 12:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC), amended 12:53, 12 April 2007

  I have made a suggestion on Talk:Jerusalem. Kosebamse 13:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

  The matter has been discussed on Talk:Jerusalem, new phrasing is better IMO, retracting my objection. Kosebamse 14:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

  Support. Overall, a well written, neutral and comprehensive article. (Note: I have made another suggestion for improvement on the talk page. )Kosebamse 15:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support. A good, in depth article that presents Jerusalem with as much of an NPOV as I have seen on Israel pages. --יהושועEric 19:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. An inordinate amount of time and effort has been invested in this article, more than in many other FAs. nadav 10:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm going to stick my neck out and declare that 1d is a problem for me. The bias towards Judaism and Israel is variously subtle and not so subtle. It's a very difficult topic on which to achieve geopolitical and cultural balance in this context. Tony 13:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Do you have any examples? -- tariqabjotu 22:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah. Just to start, what hits you in the face is the point of departure: it frames J entirely in Isreali terms, rather than taking a broad, historical sweep, and then providing the detail. Propriety is too hot an issue to take that line at the top. It's not good enough to put the disclaimers further down in the lead. The ambiguous (some would say "rich and complex") status of the city in political terms should be respected at the point of departure. I see now that similar issues have been raised above. The point of departure bias appears to be repeated on a smaller scale in lists in the lead. I think it needs to make more effort to acknowledge the Moslem view. I have absolutely no religious affiliations, and I have no interest in prioritising race and culture; quite the opposite. Tony 02:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

"frames J entirely in Isreali terms"? I think that is an exaggeration. We can all agree that NPOV is a priority for this article, but obviously we must mention in the first sentence the country where (most) of the city is located. In future, the east side will hopefully be the capital of Palestine, but there is no reason to omit that it is Israel's capital/seat of government already (and will continue to be, according to the Oslo accords). It would be unprecedented and unencyclopedic to bury the current status after a long history section. For that topic, we have History of Jerusalem. nadav 08:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Look at other articles about cities with long histories - they necessarily focus on modern times, and leave most of the history to another article. There's no way to avoid "framing Jerusalem in Israeli terms" - It's under Israel's control, has been for 59 years (west) and 40 years (east). It's populated by Israeli citizens, and is the nation's capital, housing all branches of government. It's an Israeli city, for better or worse. Of course, if you (Tony) have specific suggestions - please express them on the talk page. okedem 09:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Other cities with long histories? Like ... London or Paris, or Beijing? They are not the subject of bitter disputes over sovereignty. I'm not suggesting that the Israeli hold over the city be ignored in the article, or even in the lead. On the contrary, I'm suggesting that this claim not be framed as the starting point, and that rather a sense of the long, rich, multicultural history of the city be the theme in the opening paragraph, followed by a careful account, from a NPOV stance, of the current geopolitical status. Otherwise, WP might be seen to repeat in its text one of the adversarial perspectives that may be fuelling the real-life conflict. To achieve NPOV in this article, as I stated above, is a difficult task, although achievable, I think, with greater sensitivity to the major groups that lay claim to such sovereignty than is conveyed by the current opening. A special treatment is required; pointing to the structure, tone and content of articles on Moscow or Delhi, IMV, misses the point; Jerusalem is like no other city.

I must reiterate that I mean no ill-will to any religion or cultural group in my recommendation that a more balanced opening be developed. My only concern is to ensure that WP's worldwide reputation for balance is not put at the slightest risk by a gold-star endorsement of the opening wording. Tony 09:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's not confuse the legality of Israel's claim over the city with the reality of it. Jerusalem, regardless of international perspective, is under Israel's full control, and has been for a long time now. It is an Israeli city, and that's the fact today. There's serious controversy over its future, sure, but that is handled in the article right now. The only sovereign entity there is Israel, even if other group want sovereignty too.

I can't really say anything more - if you'd like to make specific suggestions, I'd be glad to discuss them with you, and I'm sure the other editors would too. okedem 10:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

But my point is that the article currently does confuse those two concepts. Tony 11:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's wrong to skirt the issue by placing the current status after a long history section. I do, however, see a compromise. We keep the current first sentence, but move up to the second sentence the statement "Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state" which now appears towards the bottom. Reactions? (We should probably move this discussion to Talk:Jerusalem by now). nadav 10:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Support This article is as NPOV as possible satisfying both sides. A great article and thoroughly fascinating Flymeoutofhere 10:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• Object The lead is simply unacceptable, as it does not adequately summarize the article. It has no word on history, only on religion and geography. The reader will never learn that Jerusalem is first and foremost the holiest city in Judaism. Now the article jumbles together Jerusalem's role in Judaism, which is immense, and the fact that the city was Muhammad's first direction of prayer, a minor and insignificant fact, which was only the case for a very brief time period. Beit Or 17:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Did you miss this sentence: "Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual center of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE."?

I don't pertain to know much about Islam, but Jerusalem is considered holy to Muslims, and that's a fact. The lead doesn't talk about the reason, and says nothing about direction of prayer (besides, isn't Jerusalem where Muhammad is believed to have ascended to the heavens from?). What would you like to add about history? We can add a paragraph summarizing the history section. okedem 18:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is such a sentence, but its buried after the completely misleading claim "Jerusalem is considered important to the three major Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam." The lead does mention Muhammad's direction of prayer despite the extremley low importance of this fact; please read carefully. Beit Or 18:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Jerusalem is holy to Christians and Muslims only because it is the holy city of Judaism, to which the other religions are styled as successor traditions. I am not aware that Jerusalem, unlike Mecca, Medina, Najaf or Karbala, has ever played any practical role in Islam, either related to the discharge of religious duties or as a center of administration, excepting seventeen months during which it was the direction of prayer for a few hundred people who had never visited the city.Proabivouac 19:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. The Night of Ascension is exclusive to Islam and the crucifixion of Jesus is insignificant in Judaism. -- tariqabjotu 03:33, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Tariqabjotu. Do you have any evidence for your assertion that "Jerusalem is holy to Christians and Muslims only because it is the holy city of Judaism". --Agha Nader 03:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Object, simply because the article - like the city, it sadly seems - will never be entirely stable, and will never be free of NPOV arguments and partisanship. Featuring it will invite more strife and discord, and that's precisely something we don't need on this topic. This may very well be the best-written article in WP; but the underlying topic is simply too controversial to showcase it. My apologies on all those who have worked hard on it - my view should not discount your efforts and accomplishments. --Leifern 18:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
  • This objection is not actionable and can be disregarded. (Rule of thumb: most any objection containing the phrase "this article can never be a featured article beccause..." is inactionable) Raul654 03:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure how I could address this. Many changes are being made according to statements on this FAC and the talk page or in attempts to fight vandalism, but that does not make the article unstable. Objecting to granting featured status on the basis that doing so might lead to "strife and discord" does not seem to be reasonable. If there is a problem with the article as it currently is, please raise the matter. However, if your objection is based solely on conjecture (i.e. "what could happen"), there's no decent objection here. -- tariqabjotu 03:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Well, look at the discussion that's resulting from the nomination itself. For some people, anything that gives Jerusalem any amount of legitimacy as Israel's capital or even a holy city for Jews is unacceptable; for others, efforts to deprive Israel of its sovereign right to choose its own capital is reprehensible. You can't bridge those two views in an article. --Leifern 13:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I beg to differ on that last point. A compromise seems possible here as people from both sides of the aisle (if there is an aisle) seem to have converged upon Talk:Jerusalem#Compromise. Ultimately at the end of the day, some of the objections may just be out of line. Everyone is free to voice his or her opinion, but no one is bound to accept it as correct when that's just not the case. -- tariqabjotu 16:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Object I must concur with Beit Or regarding the lead. It is certainly appropriate to mention Jerusalem's secondary role in Christianity and even more minor role in Islam, but to treat these as mirror images of or somehow analogous to Judaism's singular focus on Jerusalem, which appears to have been quite consciously done at several turns, constitutes undue weight. A greater emphasis on history in the lead will also help address this problem.Proabivouac 19:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

First off, please assume good faith - we're all working for a better article here.

Look at it another way - Judaism is a minor religion, with a few million believers. Islam and Christianity have, combined, billions of believers. Thus, even a relatively minor role is one of them can be viewed as very important.

Look. We can all argue about what weight to give each thing, and we'll never be completely pleased. We can't make the lead long enough to include everything, and we don't want to leave things out. Instead of calling out what you think is wrong, why not suggest a better way to phrase things? Please try. The talk page is right there, waiting for you. okedem 19:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to concur with Okedem on this; I don't see the problem. Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual center of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE seems to cover the matter. -- tariqabjotu 04:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Object I still do not agree with the current wording of the introduction. It's status as capital should be explained within the context of the conflict, not stated as fact in the first sentence. I have already said however that i'd agree with "seat of government" and the capital dispute explained further below. --A.Garnet 19:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

And I have explained why "capital" should remain, given that Jerusalem fulfills the definition of capital, which can be found in any dictionary or encyclopedia, and does not include any demand for international recognition. Saying anything other than "capital" would distort reality, and mislead the readers. okedem 19:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

That would be fine for almost every other city; but not for this one. On one side, yes, J does fulfil that definition, but it's a disputed definition. That is why POV cannot be satisfied by privileging that statement. The order in which the participating cultures/religions are treated, on the largest and the smallest levels, should also be varied during the article, to give a sense of even-handedness. Tony 22:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Please try not to over-politicize the lead; it simply states the facts as they are. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm gobsmacked that you can't see that the current wording is highly politicised. That's why people are raising POV here. BTW, Object (Cautious withdrawal of object) until the issues are fixed. Tony 22:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The only thing "politicizing" it is your attempt to claim that simple facts are "political". Jayjg ^(talk) 00:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Jayjg, everyone agrees that as of now all of Jerusalem is controlled by Israel. That is not the point. The argument is that the question of what Jerusalem's status should be is so very controversial that mention of it should already be mentioned in the very beginning. Encyclopedists have struggled with this issue before. Encarta devotes its entire first paragraph to this controversy. What do you think of the compromise on the talk page? nadav 23:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not just a fact that Jerusalem is controlled by Israel; it is also de facto and de jure Israel's capital. The U.N. has no input into which cities countries elect as their capital, nor do other countries. To insist that basic facts cannot be stated because of Palestinian wish lists and demands is fairly absurd. Shall we also say that Tel Aviv is not an Israeli city, because Hamas insists that it too is "occupied Palestinian land"? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No no no, I would never say that. Instead we should give more weight to the question of future status by adding text on Palestinian claims, while keeping fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. nadav 00:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"a disputed definition"? Disputed by who? Can you find any definition of "capital" which has a requirement for international recognition? All definitions I found are basically this: "a city is the capital if it's designated as such, and/or if it's the seat of government." Jerusalem fulfills both these terms, so, obviously, it's the capital of Israel. Capital describes a reality, and shouldn't be bent to political claims. okedem 08:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I am very saddened by the turn this discussion is taking. Editors have worked so hard on this article and it has been years in development. FA status would have been a remarkable statement that even on tough issues with entrenched POV's, compromise is still possible and an excellent article can exist on Wikipedia. Perhaps I was too optimistic. It seems people are too unwilling to work together and accept compromises that achieve a higher goal. (I don't want to ponder the political implications.) It will be sad indeed if Leifern's objection is proved correct. nadav 23:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment regarding lead I have made a few changes to the intro. Please review and comment either here or on the talk page -- wherever you feel is more appropriate. -- tariqabjotu 06:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

IMO the change is not an improvement. What does "remains meaningful to Palestinians, who see it as the capital for a future palestinian state" mean? It certainly does not do justice to the intensity of the struggle over the status of Jerusalem. The second Intifada is known as the Al-Aska Intifada. Jerusalem's status is one of the key (some say intractable) issues at the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Many Palestinians considered Oslo a sell out becuase it prosponed the decision on the status of the Jerusalem to the final stage. Then there is the question of the attempts by the Israeli authorities to create facts on the ground by attempting to reduce the Palestinian population (by denying planning applications, beurocratic obstacles to granting residency rights of babies born to Palestinian families, removing residency rights from Palestinians who have spent more than two years abroud, constructing the wall on a route which isolates Palestinian areas, encircling Palestinian areas with new jewish neigbourhoods. Of course this does not need to be detailed in the intro. But the intro should make the bitterness of the conflict over Jeruslem clear (a conflict which has claimed hundreds of victims in Jerusalem over the last two decades). And the conflict should be given more space in the body of the article. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the Jerusalem article, not the Arab-Israeli conflict article. -- tariqabjotu 10:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

So it is. But the two are so intimately linked that is hard to talk about one without the other. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Tariq. This isn't the place. Do you want the lead to read: "And Palestinians have murdered more than a 1,000 Israelis in what they call the Al-Aska Intifada over control of Jerusalem"? Let's not turn this into another fight. Not everything needs to be about the conflict. It's mentioned, and that's enough. Please, we're trying to reach some acceptable phrasing here, and we can't put the entire article in the lead! okedem 10:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I would not consider "And Palestinians have murdered more than a 1,000 Israelis in what they call the Al-Aska Intifada over control of Jerusalem" to be a NPOV formulation. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Nor would I, and I would never actually add such a sentence to the lead. What I'm trying to say it that we don't have to focus on the conflict in every single paragraph and article here - it's just not the place. If we stray from the cold hard facts (and start guessing just how important Jerusalem is for the Palestinians) we'll fight forever, and get nowhere. Better to stick with the current formulation. The lead already has more than enough about the current status, considering it's only the last 60 years, in a city with a history of at least 3,000 years. okedem 11:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

More comments

• Support. Tariqabjotu is to be commended for tackling this, and he's done a remarkable job of steering a middle course and trying to describe each position fairly. It's carefully written, well-sourced, interesting, comprehensive, easy to read, and it's a good length. I hope that editors who are opposing only on the basis of strong POV will reconsider. We don't have to agree with articles to be able to see the quality in them. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Further comment—SV, this "middle course" is a matter for debate. What some reviewers see as a one-sided framing of the point of the departure, and in the ordering of other information in the article, is unchanged. Here's an example from lower down in the lead of subtle framing towards the Israeli claim:

"The civic and cultural center of modern Israel extends from western Jerusalem toward the country's other urban areas to the west, while areas populated mostly by Arabs may be found in the northern, eastern and southern districts." "Modern Israel" (as a state, with all of the advantages and prestige that a nation carries) is pitted agains individual "Arabs". The nation frame is reinforced in the same sentence with "the country's". The western part of the city is framed in terms of national ownership, and one that extends outward geographically into the "nation". By contrast, the other major group, the Arabs, are billed as only "mostly" populating "areas"; these are worded in terms of areas that "may be found" (vs. "extending"), and are further described as mere "districts". The bias in this article would provide fodder for a whole linguistics PhD dissertation.

As well as Criterion 1d, I wish to broaden my objection to 1a. Here are examples of why:

• • What is "storied history". "Storied doesn't seem to be a word.
  • Unnecessary amplifications and repetitions at the top: "... is Israel's capital and seat of government. It is Israel's largest city[iv] both in population and area, with a population of approximately 724,000 (as of 2006) in an area totaling 126". "is Israel's" x 2; "population" x 2; "area" x 2. Is "both" necessary? It's not used for "captial and seat of government". Is "totaling" necessary, instead of the unmarked "of"? Perhaps as a personal preference, I'd use "about" rather than "approximately", as shorter, plainer and less spiky.
  • "Barely one square kilometer,[7] the Old City is home to several of Jerusalem's most important and contested religious sites, including the Western Wall and Temple Mount for Jews, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque for Muslims, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre for Christians."—"in area" is required after "kilometer". There are two subset items ("several of" and "including"); can we do without one or both of these to strengthen the flow?
  • "Surrounding the Old City are more modern areas of Jerusalem." Is "of Jerusalem" necessary in this firm context? "More" is ambiguous—it could mean "further" or it could be comparative (more modern than the old city). Is the word necesssary at all? In any case, if it's retained, it needs a deictic ("the"). Tony 03:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • First, storied is a word. And so is nitpicking. I took care of most of the items in the second half of your statement. Regarding the first half... I pretty much left that alone. The lead is being discussed on the talk page quite a bit. In my opinion, I think you're over-analyzing things. There is little choice but to "pit" (uh... sure...) the country of Israel with individual Arabs. There's no other country to discuss, so what else are we to say? Israel is one of the most developed country in the region, so... you know... que sera sera. Neutrality does not mean distorting facts to ensure a disadvantaged group is portrayed as equal to a more advantaged group. Like I said, you're reading into things too hard. If you're willing to debunk an article based solely on petty semantics over whether "may be found" is used versus "extending" while also complaining that "population" is used twice in the first paragraph, you have come to the wrong place. -- tariqabjotu 04:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tariq. This looks like nitpicking, and moreover it comes down to stylistic preference. I think it reads very well as is. Even if you don't agree, will you dismiss the entire article because of it? nadav 05:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, whether we like it or not, around Jerusalem there's one sovereign country, Israel, and areas/districts populated with Arabs/Palestinians. Only one sovereign body here, one country. If you'd really like, we can add something like: "...mostly by Arabs may be found in the northern, eastern and southern districts (including areas controlled by the Palestinian National Authority)" (these are Bethlehem and Ramallah).

Of course there is some "framing" of Jerusalem as a part of Israel - It is a part of Israel! Israel controls all of it, it's Israel's capital, it's an Israeli city with Israelis living in it! So we talk about its history, we talk about the conflict, we talk about Palestinian claims to it, but still, today, it's an Israeli city. How would you like to phrase it?

Please, try not to read hidden meaning in every little word here. These words were chosen in good faith, not to try and hide/distort the truth. Don't confuse style with content. okedem 12:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• At the link you provided, "storied" = often spoken of or written about; famous:

Theirs was the most storied romance in Hollywood.

I suggest that you use a more familiar word, and one that you can be sure is appropriate. Romance novels or the tabloids may "story" a love affair, but I'm unsure whether the history of a city is an appropriate use for this epithet.

These were examples of why the whole article needs the attention of a copy-editor, preferably one who's unfamiliar with the text.

It's easy to accuse me of "overanalysing" that passage, but you offer no qualitative rejoinder or rebuttal to the points I made in that analysis: that the bias is subtle and infused throughout the wording. Accusing me of "petty semantics" and "reading into things too hard" isn't going to contribute to serious debate here, either. And if you don't care about ungainly repetition, right at the top, you've come to the wrong place; this article isn't going to satisfy the criteria. Nor is your insincere and apparently gloating "que sera sera" a serious rebuttal. There's a circularity about the world-view espoused here. Tony 07:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of turning the entire future of the Jerusalem article into a silly argument over a word, let me offer the following def.s from Random House unabridged [9] and from Merriam-Websters [10] resp.: "1. recorded or celebrated in history or story: the storied cities of ancient Greece.", "2 : having an interesting history : celebrated in story or history <a storied institution>" nadav 12:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that you were sending mixed messages when you advocated both word variety (by complaining about the repetition of "population") and lack of word variety (by complaining about the "areas" vs. "extending" bit) in the same comment. Additionally, I'm unsure where you get gloating from. I was saying that Israel is the most developed country in the Middle East; that's the way it is whether you like it or not. So, it would be very difficult to portray Israel as being on equal footing as the West Bank or whatever political entity is located there. I did provide a rebuttal: you're reading into things too hard and inventing bias where none is actually present, in the same manner you misinterpreted my words (most likely inadvertently). I'm not sure how else to convey this. -- tariqabjotu 18:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Tony often comes up with nitpicking details regarding his own personal preferences that have nothing to do with proper or even preferred usage, and then opposes FA status ostensibly for those reasons. It's best to ignore them, rather than get worked up. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. Tony, I feel you're being too harsh. The copy editing points you made are largely minor and boil down to preference. For example, I wouldn't write "Surrounding the Old City are the more modern areas of Jerusalem," but there's nothing wrong with it. It might be faster for you to tweak the writing than to leave detailed examples here.
• As for the POV issue, I can't see a POV in "The civic and cultural center of Israel extends from western Jerusalem toward the country's other urban areas to the west, while areas populated mostly by Arabs may be found in the northern, eastern and southern districts."
• You wrote of that sentence

  "Modern Israel" (as a state, with all of the advantages and prestige that a nation carries) is pitted agains individual "Arabs". The nation frame is reinforced in the same sentence with "the country's". The western part of the city is framed in terms of national ownership, and one that extends outward geographically into the "nation". By contrast, the other major group, the Arabs, are billed as only "mostly" populating "areas"; these are worded in terms of areas that "may be found" (vs. "extending"), and are further described as mere "districts". The bias in this article would provide fodder for a whole linguistics PhD dissertation.

• It is a fact that there is a state of Israel and that there is no other state on that piece of land. I feel that in trying to deconstruct that sentence in terms of bias, you may simply be reflecting your own, because I think most people would not see in it what you extracted from it. This is understandable because biases are hard to shake off, but I feel that tariqabjotu has managed it. How would you rewrite that sentence, as a matter of interest?
• I spoke to a friend about this yesterday. He was born in Israel and lived in Jerusalem for a few years as an adult. He is non-Zionist and doesn't like that the State of Israel exists in its current form, and he is himself a good writer, so I asked him to read this article. He said it was excellent. He said he doubted there is a more neutral way to present the contentious issues, and he called the article "a work of art." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Why should we care about your non-Zionist friend? Beit Or 21:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Good question. Since when are the opinions of non-Zionists acceptable on Wikipedia? :-) ابو علي (Abu Ali) 14:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• Because he's Israeli and cares deeply about the country; because he loves Jerusalem and knows a lot about it; and because he's non-Zionist and so, while loving Israel, he understands the hostility toward it. He's also a good writer. For all those reasons, I was interested to see what he made of the article. He called it a "work of art." I thought that was worth mentioning. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I have a Zionist friend, who is a professional writer and thinks that this article is a badly-written exercise in skewing the image of Jerusalem. Sounds impressive? Beit Or 22:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I was going to make a point-by-point analysis of the history section to demostrate it weaknesses, which are multiple. Since I have no time for that right, it may be enough to point out the on-going disputes on talk regarding history and lead to show that the article in its current state is light years away from featured status. Beit Or 21:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That discussion only started as a way to satisfy some of the complaints voiced here by you and others. As for Itzse, he meant well, but just added unsourced statements which were reverted. nadav 22:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm concurring with Nadav. The statement that this article is "light years away from featured status", especially based solely on those two discussions, is light-years away from being correct. -- tariqabjotu 23:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Beit Or, can you give an example of a sentence or paragraph that you feel is unacceptable: not just one that you don't like, but one that you feel is clearly too POV for FA status? Or if the issue is omission, can you give an example of a point you feel is missing and which you regard as important for neutrality? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Since you're pressing, a few quick points:

• The whole history section is mostly about changes in control. There is virtually nothing at all on the city proper: how it developed, for instance.
• The entire history of Jerusalem between the 6th century BCE and the time of Herod is missing. These are five centuries, full of lots of interesting events.
• "From that point, the rights of the non-Muslims under Islamic territory were governed by the Pact of Umar..." This is wrong and unhistorical, the Pact of Umar was developed by Muslim scholars of the 8th century onwards, who projected their rulings back to Umar in order to lend them greater authority.
• The section on religious significance contains three paragraphs: the shortest one on Judaism, the two longer ones on Christianity and Islam. This is absolutely unacceptable given the totally different weight given to Jerusalem by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. As I have pointed out above, the article strongly and consistently underplays the Jewish nature of Jerusalem.
• Why is there nothing at all on Jerusalem in literature and arts?

Beit Or 22:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If the Jerusalem article were any longer, it would be called too long. Editorial decisions have to be made on what to include. The time period before Herod is mentioned as including the Hasmonean rule. Note that there is also a lack of authoritative sources about this time, since it precedes Josephus. The religious significance paragraphs are merely summaries of topics that have entire subarticles devoted to them, so it is not useful to look at the difference of a few lines. Also, the Judaism paragraph appears first. nadav 00:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

As for Pact of Umar, the period discussed there is the 8th century. While its eventual codified form may have only appeared later, many scholars contend that its ideas date back to even pre-Islamic times. Most importantly, the statement in the article is sourced to an authoritative work by Marcus, who writes:

The Pact was probably originated about 637 by Omar I after the conquest of Christian Syria and Palestine. By accretions from established practices and precedents, the Pact was extended; yet despite these additions the whole Pact was ascribed to Omar...It is generally assumed that its present form dates from about the ninth century

So, in some form, the pact was already practiced. Moreover, the sentence in the article is also speaking about the 400 years that followed, which includes the time the time the pact was codified in its present form. If you don't like the current wording, I suggest you change it to something you find more agreeable. nadav 00:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Beit, much of the information you may be looking for is in (or at least should be in) the History of Jerusalem article, which is more detailed and lengthy than the section in the main Jerusalem article. I'll work on a footnote for the Pact of Omar though to clarify the matter and the questionable time frame of its creation. -- tariqabjotu 02:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The footnote on the Pact of Umar is even more POV (and, to put it bluntly, false) than the body of the article. In fact, it is the consensus opinion of modern historians that the Pact of Umar is a work of later Muslim jurists. If anything, the article seems to be getting worse. Beit Or 19:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you write something about it yourself for the article? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Will you give me a barnstar for that? :) Seriously, no, I'm not going to rewrite the lead and the whole history section. Beit Or 19:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

No one asked you to; we're talking about the Pact of Omar piece. I too am itching to see your take on the matter. -- tariqabjotu 19:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Whether anyone asked me or not, this is what the article needs. Beit Or 19:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

So you're not willing to propose a new wording for the footnote that you feel is neutral? I guess there's nothing else to see here then... -- tariqabjotu 19:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

One either reivews the article or makes substantial edits to it, but not both. At least, this is my understanding of the process. It is not appropriate to tell commenters on FAC "then go fix it if you care". In adidtion, I wasn't talking about the footnote only; both the body text and the footnote are unacceptable, and the latter has made the former look even worse. Beit Or 19:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If you don't want to write something in the article, you can propose something either here or on the talk page. You can't just say the footnote is POV, but then withhold further rationale. The footnote clearly notes the timing of the Pact of Umar is debatable; one can easily find sources that support either position. What more do you want? -- tariqabjotu 20:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Your comment above has misrepresented my arguments. I did not "withhold further rationale", but provided it, several times by now. It is a false and unattributed idea that the timing of the Pact of Umar is debatable; the consensus opinion of modern historians is that Umar never signed such a document. I can't be more clear than that. Beit Or 20:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The note doesn't say he did. Everyone agrees that in its current form, it did not originate with him. But Marcus says that in some (more limited) form it probably existed in his lifetime, and many point out that the pact is very similar to the earlier Persian law. Thus (say the experts cited in the note) it is reasonable to believe that the pact was already established practice in some form. nadav 00:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

If by unattributed you mean sourced, then yes, that is correct. -- tariqabjotu 20:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

We're all editors here, Beit Or. We don't have one class of reviewers, and another class that does the actual work. If you want to see the section you complained about improved, and you know what you're talking about, by all means go ahead and improve it, or place your suggested text on the talk page for discussion. Can you give some sources for "the consensus opinion of modern historians is that Umar never signed such a document"? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

• comment images- can we get more images of the city, especially the modern city into this article. I think we could have a few more images of famous landmarks in the old city, but we need more images of the modern city here.--Sefringle 04:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Question needs work

Jewish Question is currently stubby and needs more cites. I should think that we'd be able to do quite a lot with this. -- Writtenonsand 13:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Gathering of Israel

Oh boy, what a beautiful OR essay. I wish that more editors would read up on WP policies before spending long hours writing new articles. --Shuki 23:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with that. Certainly, this person needs to cite their sources, but it's not as if they're proposing a whole new idea. Surely the ideas they discuss here have already been proposed, discussed and published... LordAmeth 01:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Israeli currency

There's a discussion over the naming of "Israeli lira" or "Israeli pound". See Talk:Israeli lira#Requested move. Epson291 08:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Hebrew calendar FAR

Hebrew calendar has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -Kicking222 15:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Image collages in Jew, Ashkenazi Jews, American Jews

There is a sudden effort by new user(s) to turn the infoboxes in these articles into a crazy POV tapestry of images. Some of them are just too much (to my taste), some misrepresent the subject as misogynistic freakish (Einstein with tongue out) bunch of revolutionaries. Please consider joining the discussions at the corresponding talk pages. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 23:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

My preference is for historic images. They could be living persons whose fame is long established (Sandy Koufax, Lauren Bacall, Stephen Spielberg, Joseph Lieberman etc.). But should this be a constantly changing mosaic of the latest pretty face Jewish movie stars, popular musicians, and atheletes? Let's have the collage instead be a fixed mosaic of persons who will still be remembered 20 years from now.Metzenberg 09:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for comments - collage image at Ashkenazi Jews

A controversy currently exists at the page Ashkenazi Jews concerning the selection of a collage image with a sampling of famous Ashkenazi Jewish individuals. The collage appears in the Infobox for the article. Please visit Talk:Ashkenazi_Jews to offer your opinion. --Metzenberg 09:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust Trains

Hello! Could I ask members to review the article Holocaust trains, which through a large re-write was saved from an AfD proposal. It would also be welcome if members could input to the dialogue on the articles talk page about an appropraite name for the page. Thank You! Rgds, - Trident13 11:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles needed

Is anyone capable of writing articles about:

• History of the Jews in Kyrgyzstan and
• History of the Jews in Turkmenistan (it's only a blank page.)

Thank you, IZAK 08:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Warsaw Uprising

I don't know how related to the project this is, but the article may be demoted from FA status soon, so any help in improving it (especially adding inline citations) to prevent that would be excellent. nadav (talk) 21:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

stub rename

proposal here to rename {{Jewish-hist-stub}} to {{Judaism-hist-stub}} may be of interest  ⇒ bsnowball  18:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Assesment and importance pages and header created

I have brought the header template into accord with those such as {{WikiProject Israel}} allowing for the small, nesting, quality assesment and importance assesment flags. I have also created the appropriate categories. Now its time we all try and start assessing/rating the articles. -- Avi 20:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I also set up the assessment bot to collect stats, and added the matrix to the project page. -- Avi 21:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Bad article on Jewish Slave trade

Hi. I've just come across Jewish Slave trade, which was created by Serenesoulnyc (talk · contribs), who has since been banned for sock-puppetry. The article is poorly written, barely cited and smells to me of POV and OR.

The "References" section lists specific pages in four books:

• Marvin Lowenthal, The Jews of Germany: A Story of Sixteen Centuries p. 1–18
• David Brion Davis, The Problem of Slavery in Western Culture p. 64–66
• Chaim Potok, Wanderings: Chaim Potok's History of the Jews p. 395.
• Aymn Almsaodi, The Historic Atlas of Iberia p. 93.

The same books and the same pages are listed in White slavery#References. I suspect someone has been sneaking anti-Semitic POV into Wikipedia. I suggest checking the contributions of Serenesoulnyc and his/her socks.

I don't have access to any reference libraries, nor do I know much Jewish history. Could someone please take a look at these articles and clean them up? Or perhaps Jewish Slave trade should simply be deleted?

Cheers, CWC 11:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Potok reference is complete bunk. Page 395 talks about medieval interpreters of the Talmud. Davis 64-65 deals with slavery in biblical times. I suspect the other references are similarly nonsense. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 13:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This garbage has been inserted into Sharmuta, Sarmatians, and God knows how many other articles. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: Briangotts has deleted Jewish Slave trade, and cleaned up White slavery and Sarmatians. Thanks for that. Other editors have cleaned up and prod'd Sharmuta. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish Slave Trade.

Someone probably should check the edits of Serenesoulnyc (talk · contribs) and his/her socks for similar garbage. I'm afraid I'm not volunteering. CWC 17:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Important figure categorization

People like Nevi'im, Rishonim, etc. are they part of WP:JEW, WP:JH, or both? -- Avi 17:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ebionites

The Ebionites article is featured on the Wiki main page July 9th. Vandalism of the article has already begun. Please help to monitor the article and rv vandalism as needed. Thank you. Ovadyah 02:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

dab

Is there an established precedent for whether to disambiguate a title as (bible) versus (biblical)? There seems to be dual usage, as well as others like (ancient city) etc. Do let me know, Tewfik^Talk 22:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears that there is no standard: take a look at Category:Hebrew Bible people and Category:Torah people and their sub-categories. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 22:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Warsaw Ghetto

Warsaw Ghetto and related articles (Warsaw Ghetto Uprising etc.) - pretty important and quite good quality IMO. --HanzoHattori 21:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Red Auerbach

Odd place to advertise for a WP:NBA guy, but Jewish Boston Celtics NBA legend Red Auerbach is currently a GAC. Feel free to feedback and improve on the greatest Jew basketball has produced. —Onomatopoeia 07:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Disputed extra condition on category:jews

I added the extra condition for the category:jews that people should only appear in this category if their jewish ethnicity or adherence to Judaism is a defining characteristic or related to their notability. I was reverted very quickly. Please let us know what you think at category_talk:jews. Andries 17:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC) I moved this here from the main article page and put it in chronological order --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 00:37, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Slave Trade article is a mess

Someone needs to clean up this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_slave_trade

I think that completely replacing it the Jewish encyclopedia version would be a step up. Jon513 15:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Further improvements to the Ebionites article

Can anyone help out on further improvements to the Ebionites article? The editors that guided it through FA need a break. The article is currently beset by an aggressive editor pushing an Essene agenda. I have asked for commentary from Ft/N and an RFC to bring in a more balanced perspective. The Religious perspectives section also needs expansion. Ovadyah 21:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Peer review for Israel

I have put forth a peer review for the Israel article at Wikipedia:Peer review/Israel/archive1. Comments are welcome there (and on Talk:Israel, if you prefer). -- tariqabjotu 19:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom case status

At this moment, a significant case is occurring at the page for arbitration proceedings, at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop, a subpage of Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Allegations_of_apartheid.

A group of editors has been developing an article entitled "Allegations of Israeli apartheid." In response, a group of editors attempted to build a set of articles detailing allegations of "apartheid" in other countries.

In response some editors of the Israel-apartheid article allege that editors who worked on articles about other countries have violated WP:POINT. However editors of articles on other countries say that they were trying to foster some objectivity.

Currently, the ArbCom case has shown somewhat of a pattern of conflicting allegations about various users' conduct, related to both sides in the dispute. This was inevitable, since ArbCom's primary focus is user conduct, not content disputes.

Your help might be useful. Please go to this proceeding and insert your comments on what you feel are the best ways to achieve fairness and balance, in accordance with Wikipedia principles.

If you wish, you may also weigh in at WP:VPP, on the question of whether ArbCom or some other body should address content disputes, in order to somewhat reduce the cycle of accuations and allegations.

Thank you. --Steve, Sm8900 03:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Eliezer Silver

User:Eretzprevails keeps on adding a personal account at the end of the page - It has been transferred to the talk-page twice. But User:Eretzprevails is persisting it be on the main page. I am not quite sure how to stop this? Chesdovi 11:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ebionites FAR

Ebionites has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. -- Avi 18:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

• We've uploaded nearly all of our encyclopedia topics, a list of which is available here. Most are under Judaism category "The Holocaust." Only the content copy and pasted from this user name is available for public domain usage from the USHMM. We also plan on adding pictures (we have already uploaded a good many from our Buchenwald collections as a trial onto the Wikimedia Foundation's site under "The Holocaust" category) but, again, only those selected by the museum are free from copy violations--USHMM T·C 20:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yisrael Meir Kagan mystery

The non-hassidic Chofetz Chaim is categorised under Category:Hasidic rebbes, however I can not see this category on the edit page to remove it?! Chesdovi 11:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

it is from Template:Infobox Rebbe. Jon513 17:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Telshe yeshiva photo

I found this photo among my uncle’s belongings. I think it is a photo of the Telz yeshiva in Lithuania which he attened in his youth. Can anyone help establish what the photo is of and who is on the podium? It was taken around 1936. Thanks! Chesdovi 16:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Center for Jewish History

I was quite surprised today to discover that there was no Wiki article on the above.

So I started a "stub" on it.

Immediately thereafter I encountered a dispute with an editor who hold that it's not "notable"!

I ask all Jewish history and culture buffs to speed over to the article and help out!

Best regards, --Ludvikus 15:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Concentration camp brothels

I just stumbled over this sentence about WWII concentration camps: "Jewish male prisoners had access to (and used) Jewish women forced into camp brothels by the Nazis, who also used them.". This is in the article Violence against women. Alfons Åberg 14:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Stefan Czarniecki

Information about persecutions of Jews by troops of Stefan Czarniecki is being removed from article as not relevant. Jewish history tags are removed also. I might be wrong of cause, but somehow I feel persecutions of Jews does have something to do with Jewish history. Opinions? M0RD00R 16:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see discussion on talk. Being a commander during a period many Jews (and others) suffered does not merit inclusion of details of those sufferings in a biographical article, for the same reasons that few bios of WWII commanders go into any detail on Holocaust.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

He was not "a commander during a period many Jews (and others) suffered" he was a commander of troops that massacred Jews throughout the Poland. See the difference? M0RD00R 17:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

In those times, soldiers of various armies would massacre anybody, it did not matter if Jews, Poles or Germans. Czarniecki was not an anti-Semite, he was the typical product of the 17th century Tymek 17:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The massacres of Jews were not random acts of violence. Jews were specifically targeted under accusations of supporting the Swedes. If you'll find academic source for "he was not an anti-Semite he just massacred Jews from time to time, you know typical 17th century thing", you can include this information into the article, but do not delete referenced information about destroyed Jewish communities. Let the reader decide how typical is that. M0RD00R 17:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

During the Swedish invasion of Poland, several Jews showed disloyalty to Poland, actively cooperating with the Swedes. Czarniecki would punish all traitors, no matter of their origins. Read Wespazjan Kochowski and his "Klimakteria" or Jakub Los Tymek 18:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

And this explains why you are removing referenced information about destruction of entire Jewish communities (not several Jews) throughout the Poland, how? M0RD00R 18:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The times of Deluge reduced Polish population by millions. Dead included hundred of thousands of Jews - but also Poles, Ruthenians, Germans, not to mention Swedes, Cossacks or Muscovites. We don't include information on destruction of Jewish, Polish, Ruthernian or other communities, entire towns were burned, villages wiped out. This is not relevant to the biographies of military commanders - just as the details of more infamous Jewish killings by Cossacks are primarily discussed in Chmielnicki Uprising, not in the biography of Bohdan Chmielnicki.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Take a good look this section [[11]]. And I'm not seeing any persistent attempts to delete it. Sadly it's not the case here. M0RD00R 20:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I took a good look on it before I wrote my previous post. Chmielnicki article has good sections on how his person is seen in Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and Jewish historiographies. They, first of all, clearly identify their national/cultural biases. Second, they cite modern research (and not decades or centuries old encyclopedias). Third, Chmielnicki, unlike Czarniecki, is a major person in Jewish history, and his article, without info on his role on it, would be vastly incomplete - however it is only a short summary of information found in Khmelnytsky_Uprising#Jewish. If you don't see the difference between Czarniecki's and Chmielnicki's roles in Jewish history, please, read up more on those subjects (and read up on it outside old encyclopedias) - and edit the relevant articles afterwards.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Participation is requested

Please see this [12] - can someone explain to me how to get wider participants ? thanks, Zeq 21:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Jewish history of Wales & N. Ireland needed

The series of articles on the History of the Jews in Europe is complete. All the European countries have articles, even if they are stubs for now. However there are still two more: History of the Jews in Wales and History of the Jews in Northern Ireland (see related articles History of the Jews in England and History of the Jews in Scotland) that are listed as countries in template {{|Europe topic|History of the Jews in}} that require someone to add information and start the article. If you are able to, your efforts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, IZAK 07:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/The Protocols of Zion (imprints)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Protocols of Zion (imprints). Thank you, IZAK 09:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/The Jewish Bolshevism

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Jewish Bolshevism. Thanks, IZAK 10:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion - Jewish Texan History

Many articles in both History of the Brenham Jewish Community as well as History of the Galveston Jewish Community are being considered for deletion. These are two Jewish communities that have over 150 year histories and many notable individuals. Thanks. Bhaktivinode 22:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

FYI - The first Jewish Texan article proposed for deletion today was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Temple Freda. Thanks. Bhaktivinode 22:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I just listed the AfD at Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Judaism. You should consider doing that for any future AfDs. A listing there will get a lot more attention than one here (you can list it here anyway, but also list it there). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Nominations of Texas Jews articles for deletion

Hi: Your input would be greatly appreciated at the discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Nominations of Texas Jews articles for deletion. Thanks a lot, IZAK 21:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Relisting Ashkenazi intelligence as a separate vote

In a sweeping nomination at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race and intelligence (history), the Ashkenazi intelligence article was not listed as part of an original group in the AfD until a later user mentioned the article and then the nominator decided to add it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Race and intelligence (history)#One more? Ashkenazi intelligence. Unfortunately, by that time the nomination had already attracted a lot of negative attention with ten delete votes already having been cast making it essentially impossible for those only concerned with the Ashkenazi intelligence subject to be heard or noticed, and among the votes that are still coming in afterwards it is not clear if they understood what the serious tinkering additions by the nominator were all about, or if he was even right to do so. Futhermore, being "Ashkenazi" is not a "race" by any definition. The Ashkenazim are a cultural and historical group of Jews, not really even an ethnicity, consisting of a variety of Jews with a common religious and historical culture originating mainly from France, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, and Russia, so that Ashkenazi Jews are a recognized and respectable group, not a "race" in any way, so it is a mistake to match them up or compare them to any "racial" articles. For the sake of clarity the Ashkenazi intelligence should be removed from this nomination due to the confusion and the non-orderly and out of sequence manner in which it was included. The Ashkenazi intelligence article survived an AfD in February, 2007, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi intelligence. Based on the incorrect manner and negative timing that the Ashkenazi intelligence was included in the general vote about "Race and intelligence" it must be withdrawn from this AfD. If anyone wishs to have a new nomination, they can go ahead, but it definitely should not have been lumped with a set of articles not connected to it in content or spirit. Your input and intervention is requested. Thank you, IZAK 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

SEE: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Relisting Ashkenazi intelligence as a separate vote: "I think that pages should only be grouped together on XfD if all the following criteria are met: (1) There is a single place to discuss all the pages. (2) It is unlikely that any user will have diferent opinions about the pages. (3) They were all listed within an hour of when the discussion page was created. As the third criteria clearly wasn't met, I think that lumping it in here was the wrong thing to do. Od Mishehu 08:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)" Thank you, IZAK 19:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC) IZAK 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Serious discussions about using the names Reform vs. Progressive Judaism

Please see the present discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/open tasks#WikiProject Judaism needs help - geographical bias concerns. Your input would be greatly appreciated. (They are the result of discussions that unfolded at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Concern about duplicating Reform and Progressive labels.) Thanks so much, IZAK 00:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

User:The Haunted Angel request for adminship

This admin candidate has a Nazi emblem on his user page. Any thoughts [13] about his fitness for adminship? I'm not Jewish and I thought it was very ill judged, he considers it a joke ('I copied this box from another user's example, because I thought it was funny') and hasn't seen fit to remove it despite several complaints in his RFA. Perhaps he's right and I'm completely off base here, or perhaps not. Nick mallory 15:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Massacre of Uman

HI: User TShilo12 (talk · contribs) asked me a question about Massacre of Uman and perhaps someone here can help him out. The qustion he asks is: "I just listened to a program of Gavriel Aryeh Sanders' (http://www.gavrielsanders/com/) on Uman, and went and looked up the city article, and found a link to this article, which seems to have no references and a lot of weaselwording. I don't know whose attention it would be best to bring this to, to effect some improvement, so I'm hoping that by bringing it to your attention, that you will know whom best to contact." Please contact User:TShilo12 if you are able to help him. Thank you, IZAK 05:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Jewish history by century

Although I'm not presently a member of the project, I question User:IZAK's adding multiple categories and multiple articles in multiple categories related to Jewish history. I think, at the very least, no article should be in more than two of the Jewish history by century categories, someone needs to make sure that subcategories are subcategories rather than possibly supercategories, etc. Wikipedia:Categories is being streched beyond recognition, if not just being ignored. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Nachtigall Battalion and Roman Shukhevych

Attention is needed from project members on these two articles. User:Bandurist is using unreliable sources, such as Wikipedia mirror answers.com and the Ukrainian Wikipedia in order to justify their edits to the article. The user is also removing or attributing to "Jewish sources" the well-sourced material on the involvement of the Nachtigall Battalion and its commander Roman Shukhevych in the massacre of Jews in Lviv in July 1941. Beit Or 20:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Anne Frank Featured article review

Anne Frank has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Tvoz |talk 16:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I also added the WikiProject Jewish history banner to Talk:Anne Frank - I'm not sure how this is supposed to be done, but it seems obvious that the article should be covered by your project. Apologies if I handled it incorrectly. Tvoz |talk 05:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Winrod articles

The Gordon Winrod and Gerald B. Winrod articles are being skewed by an editor who may be a family member of the subjects. Tactful help from additional experienced editors who are interested in nailing down facts of living persons would be useful. Sources beyond those listed might include: [14], [15], [16]. I bring it here because this project seems the closest to dealing with antisemitism. ✤ JonHarder ^talk 15:30, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Raoul Wallenberg

Hi, this article was a wreck. I didn't have much time, but I tried to make some fairly radical changes to bring it back to a decent state, after a series of edits by Attila Lajos (who wrote his PhD thesis on Wallenberg [17]) that gave the article a rather non-neutral point of view. I hope that by posting here I can draw some attention to it so that someone might be able to give it the time it deserves. –Joke 21:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

History of the Jews in Wales

Still needed is an article about the History of the Jews in Wales to complete the History of the Jews in Europe. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

History of the Jews in Singapore

Hi, there is a need for an article about the History of the Jews in Singapore. At the present time there are articles about the Chesed-El Synagogue and the Maghain Aboth Synagogue in Singapore that have some facts that may help such an article. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 15:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Stefan Czarniecki again

Opinion of an expert needed. This persons role in Jewish history is constantly beeing censored out by certain group of hyper-patriotic users. Because this person is mentioned in Polish national anthem any different reaction would be a surprise, but nevertheless Czarniecki troops destroyed dozens of Jewish communities all over Poland and this fact is worth mentioning in Wikipedia I guess. So far Jewish encyclopedias and other sources are dismissed as WP:FRINGE and the section is being deleted. M0RD00R (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

the problem is that you are trying to portait him as singling out Jewish communites while ignoring the fact that hundreds of thousands of people from other ethnic groups died also during the war. In short the article reads as he was leading a war against Jewish people which is obviously false and manipulative--Molobo (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This doed not change the fact that the Jews there targeted intentionally. The destruction of dozens of Jewish communities was the collective punishment for alleged support for Swedes. M0RD00R (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The Poles, Germans, Protestants, Ruthanians who supported Swedes were also punished intentonally in collective punishment--Molobo (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You are more than welcomed to expand the article on Czarniecki's crimes against Poles, Germans, Protestants, and Ruthenians. But don't delete sourced information that does not suit your bias. M0RD00R (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Jewish history

I don't want to sound like a crank, but does anyone here watch pages? Jewish history got shredded back in October, when this edit took out over 5000 bytes. None of it ever got restored until today when I did it. It was one of those situations where three or four acts of vandalism were committed consecutively and only one got reverted. I'd be happy to join up and try to help. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 11:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Houston Stewart Chamberlain

Please, somebody visit Houston Stewart Chamberlain, and look over the somewhat heated discussion on Talk: Houston Stewart Chamberlain. The article is in my belief an insidious piece of apologia/revisionism and is in desperate need of a recasting. This is a position I try to state clearly and source amply. But I am finding myself ill-equipped (emotionally) to deal with the editor who has taken it upon himself to protect it. Some of the statements that are made are pretty shocking. I am an animal ecologist - and had no idea how intense meddling with history could be! By all means leave questions/comments here or on my talk page or on the Chamberlain talk page. Thank you, Eliezg (talk) 10:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

For the record this is the edit + reversion that triggered the discussion, but the problems with the article are much much deeper than the lead. Eliezg (talk) 10:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Jewish history in Saudi Arabia

An odd situation has arisen in the course of adding to Category:Jewish history by country. In that parent category (part of the larger Category:Jewish history) the "Jewish histories" of any country has been categorized under "Category:Jewish country-xyz history" but Category:Jewish Saudi Arabian history has now been challenged because it contains articles about events "before" Saudi Arabia came into official existence. But my objection is, in that case, one could then exclude the facts and events of Jewish history within almost all modern countries because when Jewish history events happened in them hundreds or even thousands of years ago, the modern countries in whose territory they happened had not yet come into existence. See the discussion at Category talk:Jewish Saudi Arabian history. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

"Judeopolonia"

Please have a look at League of East European States, an article which was originally titled "Judeopolonia", a term for this which is apparently mostly used in conspiracy literature. It'll be difficult to tease out the particulars of this obscure historical event, but we should be careful that popular mythologies don't adversely affect the article. Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 05:03, 25 December 2007 (UTC)