Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport

Macau Grand Prix

I am posting this since my two split proposal has been removed.

My issue with that article is that it is suffering from an identity crisis. What does it wants to be? Does it want to be about the headline F3 race as it is known as? Does it want to be about the so-called festivities that doesn’t exist, which it tries to be.

We have an article about the race consisting of bits about support races. This is the other issues we have with that article.

• The history part is rightly about the presently F3 race.
• The fatal accident part consists of mainly support races.
• The motorcycle and the GT race adding too much weight to the article, bits about the touring car race don't do anything better too.

If we were to keep those, do we create articles about the 24h of Le Mans with extra bits about support races? Do we add bits about any F1 GP rounds with subsections about support races? This race has always been and should be about the headline F3 race, not anything else, not the touring car race, not the motorcycle nor the GT race. They belong to separate articles.

Bits about support races should not belong there.

If you want it to be about the headline race, then get rid of the sections about the support races, it makes no sense to keep them, plus an article about the Guia race exists. SpacedFarmer (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

As someone who knows very little about the subject, the lead is downright confusing. The opening sentence states "[Macau Grand Prix] is a motorsport road race for automobiles and motorcycles held annually in Macau." The singular "race" implies that it is one race in which bikes and cars compete against each other. The lead gones on to say it started as a sports car event, then became open-wheel Formula libra. The next sentence mentions that the event has support races. This implies that all the other events listed in this paragraph (Production cars, touring cars - being part of the touring car world championship, motorcycle Grand Prix, and GT3) are the various support races. It is only the phrase "open-wheel Formula Libra" which confirms that motorcycles do not compete against cars, but a non-motorsport fan won't recognise this. The third paragraph says that the weekend highlights is the Formula 3 race, which is strange because the previous paragraph says that the Macau Grand Prix is a Formula Libra race. Why is a support race the main event, not the motorcycle+car Macau Grand Prix? (I know this isn't the reality, but this is how it reads). SSSB (talk) 16:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

To me it is intended about the event not any race else the articles should really be Formula 3 Macau Grand Prix and Macau Motorcycle Grand Prix.

I would start with:

The Macau Grand Prix (Portuguese: Grande Prémio de Macau; Chinese: 澳門格蘭披治大賽車) is a motorsport event held annually in Macau. The event consists of Grand Prix races for Formula 3 cars and motorcycles, with other races for (other prominent class) contributing to (...) championships.

As Formula 3 Macau Grand Prix doesn't look to exist, it could either be a section on this page or split out as the rest. Same as Macau Motorcyle Grand Prix. Choice of whoever wants to put the effort in. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at 'what links here', turns out that Macao Grand Prix Formula 3 do exist. Breaking off the motorcycle GP and Macau GT Cup then removing what is left of the rest for an article about the F3 race makes sense. The fatal accident part should belong to the article about the circuit, not the article about the F3 race. What will make for first editing is to remove all unsource edits. SpacedFarmer (talk) 18:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I take it when you say F3 race, you mean the Grand Prix race as recent years was Formula 4 etc.

To expand this confusion, the Template:Macau F3 Grand Prix years is also a mess, with F3 in the title but years set aside for other years suggesting it's about the event. Each year with an article appears to be consistent with being the race, not the event.

My vote, if starting again, would be to lean Macau Grand Prix to the event, but its not my scope of knowledge to know what is common. Official website in search results says "The Macau Grand Prix is a prestigious motorsport event that features various categories of racing". The Macau Guia Race article says it takes place during the Macau Grand Prix...

Looking at Pau Grand Prix, this leans to be about the races whereas the official website also says it is an event featuring the "Grand Prix de Pau" race.

Looking at Formula 1, the official sites for Monaco and British Grand Prix say their events are "Formula 1 Grand Prixs", same as the races. To me this helps understand the other races as support races. 'Macau Grand Prix' event isn't part of a series following consistent rules, but maybe the separate races can be. Would understand if that's not convincing or not wholly true. Rally Wonk (talk) 20:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I do mean that. As with the template, I think the F3 section should be split into 2, that's what I thought. I still go with splitting the motorcycle and the GT race off as they should be notable on their own and keep the GP as an article about the main headline race, irrespective of the official website. From reading SCMP, the F3 (or headline) race has always been the center of it all.

As with Pau GP, adding lap times makes the identity of the article confusing, the same with Macau. There is a bizarre trend of adding them in on other articles, especially in classes of the messy prototypes era of the 1970s. SpacedFarmer (talk) 20:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

One more point, the motorcycle race should be on par to the Formula 3 race as 'grands prix'.

Good luck with it. Rally Wonk (talk) 20:53, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

"Your" split proposal templates were removed as they were placed incorrectly/out of process. They should be placed after, or at least immediately before, a discussion is started at the talk page of the page in question. As no attempt to discuss existed that I could find, I removed the templates with a clear edit summary as to why. A7V2 (talk) 23:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

From the foreword in the official 2023 regulations for each race:

"The Automobile General Association Macao - China (the “ASN” - AAMC) will sanction the 70th Macau Grand Prix which is the property of the Sports Bureau of Macao SAR Government to FIA under the international sporting calendar. The 70th Macau Grand Prix is composed by various Competitions for different categories of races, including the TCR ASIA CHALLENGE (the “Competition”), organised by the Macau Grand Prix Organising Committee (the “Organizer”)."

Obviously, the race in uppercase changes for each regulation. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

For me splitting the article would be a terrible solution with the common user not knowing what is Macau GP is. I think only one think needs to be changed: the lead: Macau GP is not "a race (1 race)" its a series of events during 2 weekends (currently). Should be replaced by something like "is a motor racing event" like we have in [[1]]. The fact that the article was about F3 and now was moved towards more Touring Car and GT is explained by the changes that the event suffered through time: there was a time that F3 race was with no doubt the most mediatic one, with WTCC it became the one with more mediatic coverage, and with the end o WTCC and the creation of FIA GT World Cup, with so many manufacturers and top drivres, currently this is the race that gets more atention from the media and has more drivers known by readers and spectators. Its not like F1 where people are there just for F1 and the others races are just to fill the gaps and barely no one would watch the races by themselves (I do). And yes, a Grand Prix might not be just one race, like every (or most) MotoGP event article has the results of all races that happened on that weekend. So I think the article has room to improve, to make it less confuse, but splitting it would be worse than keeping it together.Rpo.castro (talk) 10:26, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. I always thought it has always been about the F3 race and should always be. The 2 weekend meetings has been a recent thing post pandemic, new for 2023. If those races were mediamatic, then they should be notable enough to break off into its own article, not clutter the article about the F3 race. Keeping in the motorcycle and GT races makes it overcluttered and bloated. I suggest cutting out the three and reduce them into a 'see also' section. SpacedFarmer (talk) 10:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Well then you always thought wrong. I'm guessing that you're mostly and open-wheel racing fan when it comes to motorsports and that's probably why you are mostly interested in the Formula racing part of the Macau Grand Prix. The reality though is that it's a much larger event and the article detailing it entirely is actually correct. And telling the entire history of Grand Prix event in an article is also not an exclusive to this one. Monaco Grand Prix for instance relates a history back to the early 20th century, way before Formula One was invetten. Likewise Australian Grand Prix detailes a long history that considerably predates the event being added to the F1 calendar in the eighties, including an early passage at the Albert Park Circuit. Also note that the premier open wheel race in Macau wasn't always Formula 3. Tvx1 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing that you're mostly and open-wheel racing fan when it comes to motorsports and that's probably why you are mostly interested in the Formula racing part of the Macau Grand Prix.

What are you talking about? Why are you accusing me of being a single-seater fanboy? Since when I have been an open-wheel fan? Also, I don't like F1 and I don't like Indycars either as much I dislike the TCRs and the GT3 cars in a spectator viewpoint. I'm pointing out again that the article should be about the title race (the now F3 race), wether it is about the F4 races during the pandemic, the F3 races around it, the Formula Pacific races before that, the Formula Libre races before that, etc, etc, etc. The race centered on it. Not the motorcycle race, not the touring car race, not the GT race nor the support races for locals.

So, are you saying I should edit in a biased GT fanboy viewpoint? Is this what Wikipedia exist for, dear?

There have been two books published about the MGP I'm very aware of. Both are heavily dedicated to the headline race, the now F3 race. The Guia race and motorcycle race only got 2 pages each for the 1994 book as did the 1978 Race of Champions race. The other solely focuses on the headline race and nothing else. SpacedFarmer (talk) 00:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The article is about the Macau Grand Prix, a sport event not only the F3 race. If you look at their website its very clear that they don't focus only at F3 like F1 events do, and if you look for news about Macau Grand Prix you will get news about all the events, some more than others, but not only about the F3. Macau Grand Prix is not an F3 race. The 2 weekends thing is recent but having several important races at same weekend its not. Rpo.castro (talk) 02:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'm posting this before this section becomes archived and closed for good since it had gone quiet. I took the bold decision to break the two support races off into its own article as it deserves it. I also say, prune off the touring car section so the focus can be on the title (F3) race. With the main article, I say delete all unsourced parts - it needs a massive cleanup. SpacedFarmer (talk) 13:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Hatnotes on NASCAR and IMSA articles

Should the NASCAR and IMSA articles have hatnotes linking to their respective premier series? Here and here are examples of what I am proposing, and the IndyCar article already has a similar hatnote. WP:HATNOTERULES states that "if a notable topic X is commonly referred to as 'Foo', but the article 'Foo' is not about X, there must be a hatnote linking to the article on X". I think this seems to apply to both NASCAR and IMSA since their premier series seem to be commonly referred to simply by the name of the sanctioning body (some examples: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8]), although there was some disagreement about this on this discussion on a user talk page, so I am proposing it here to get input from other editors. Carfan568 (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

For me, no need for hatnotes. X and foo are not demonstrated here. I think it is X and more specific X, which belong together. The link to the series should be in the content, but much better placed. Perhaps put in the lede or the infobox. I don't expect to have to search so hard to find it. A little surprising that Template:Infobox sport governing body doesn't include series/championships/league etc. Rally Wonk (talk) 22:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the hatnotes make sense. The IndyCar example is well executed as the distinction there between the body and the series is even less obvious than NASCAR and IMSA, where the existence of multiple series is better known. At the least, it's clarifying for a reader unfamiliar with the distinction. I see no downside to including it. oknazevad (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Side question: To what extent do these three 'sanction', or do they all promote/organise their own races and series? Rally Wonk (talk) 14:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that IMSA and NASCAR are both govening bodies (even if IMSA itself falls under the jurisdiction of the FIA). Therefore, they would be considered to sanction those events/championships - in additon to organising and promoting them. SSSB (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that to sanction is to give license to other parties, you don't formally give permission to yourself to follow your own rules. In motorsport, it's typically to allow use of a brand/rulebook/legal cover/insurance/etc by promotors/organisers while retaining the role of governing body. I've realised they would still sanction competitor participation.

IndyCar and NASCAR both describe themselves as sanctioning bodies but if they stage their own races and nothing else, than maybe you can understand why I asked. Now off-topic, any further discussion is welcome on my talk page. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

time parameter in venue infobox

(Copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Infobox_motorsport_venue as seems dead) Suggest removing this as in most places it is misused - with only one timezone listed and most venues will use 2 timezones 90.241.211.138 (talk) 10:04, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we would need to specify the time zone at all. I looked at other venues (Emirates Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Arrowhead Stadium and Sydney Opera House and none of these specify time zone. It seems strange to specify time zone for racing venues. SSSB (talk) 13:10, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Input requested

I would appreciate any interested editors to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Australian Grand Prix#Proposed removal of Formula 3 section. Thanks. A7V2 (talk) 23:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

How much should we emphasize lower-series events on track pages?

Hey, y'all. I'm facing a dilemma on my hands and what I believe is a problem that hasn't been addressed in the longest time here; how much do we emphasize the lower-series events? For example, if a series holds NASCAR events, how much do we explain the series races at that facility? At what point do we let the race page do the talking? I think too much emphasis is unnecessary and could very well be explained on the race page of the lower-series event.

Personally, I'm for a minor addition or notice in the events section like so: "Along with its Cup Series dates, the track also has hosted lower-series NASCAR races, including second-tier NASCAR Xfinity Series and third-tier NASCAR Truck Series races." Maybe this is a NASCAR problem more than anything, but I thought I'd raise the issue here. Perhaps I'm too extreme in my views and a compromise would work best. Cheers, and carpe diem! Nascar9919 (he/him • t • c) 14:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the Xfinity Series and Truck Series races should be listed in the events, as they are not really lower tier. They are different series and vehicles. I consider lower tier as ARCA, Whelen, etc. MysticCipher87 (talk) 15:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@MysticCipher87: How are they not lower-tier races? I'm not saying they shouldn't be mentioned (but only slightly in my opinion), but both of those series you mentioned are specifically designed to be support events for the main NASCAR Cup Series. They're lower-tier support events. Whether it be Xfinity, Trucks, or ARCA, they're all support events. The best comparison I can come up with is that Xfinity is like F2 or Indy Lights. Cheers, and carpe diem! Nascar9919 (he/him • t • c) 15:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean the races and their names should still be listed as they are also events on the track. That's why I listed them in the Events section rather than the info box. The three series are referred to as the national racing series multiple times rather than teirs. MysticCipher87 (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@MysticCipher87: Again, not saying they shouldn't be in there. But they should only be a minor addition. Check pages like Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps or Imola Circuit: they do mention their support races (such as Formula Two, but as a slight mention. The same should be for NASCAR tracks. There's no need to explain in depth when their race pages can do the talking. If you ask me, saying "Along with its Cup Series dates, the track also has hosted lower-series NASCAR races, including second-tier NASCAR Xfinity Series and third-tier NASCAR Truck Series races." is explanatory enough for the track page. Leave the rest for the event page. Cheers, and carpe diem! Nascar9919 (he/him • t • c) 15:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I made sure it wasn't fully in depth, it's in one paragraph and not fully list the entire history just "When it started" or "did the track change like the layout" and their former races. In the Texas Motor Speedway event page it mostly was about the Ferko v. National Ass'n for Stock Car Auto Racing, Inc. Lawsuit rather than the actual events at the track. MysticCipher87 (talk) 15:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@MysticCipher87: I can see its inclusion for that; however, the majority of sources you used are related to the tracks themselves (primary sources) that are essentially press releases. I honestly don't think that there's many sources out there that say "(insert event) has been run annually since (insert years)." Sourcing would be hard; you'd have to explain the event's first iteration and how it's an annual event. And there aren't many, if at all, that go into detail about that that aren't press releases. Maybe an archive in some newspapers, but I doubt it. That is the main reason why I think writing something as "Along with its Cup Series races, the track also hosts lower-tier NASCAR Xfinity Series and NASCAR Truck Series races." is reasonable. After some thought, I think linking to the races on the see also section is also reasonable, too. Cheers, and carpe diem! Nascar9919 (he/him • t • c) 04:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The special "problem" at Iowa Speedway, for example, is that until this year only Xfinity and Trucks raced there for over 15 years. This is countered by a single Cup race. A Cup race cannot be the reason to put 15 years of Xfinity history aside. The same applies to Nashville Superspeedway, Road America and Gateway. If the Cup had been run there from the start, like in Kansas or Chicagoland, for example, things would be much clearer. --Mark McWire (talk) 15:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll concede to that. If you ask me, if a track has a second-tier or third-tier event as its flagship, then I completely understand. I agree it should be the case for tracks like Lucas Oil Indianapolis Raceway Park or Portland International Raceway. I'm more hesitant on tracks like Nashville Superspeedway or Iowa Speedway, but I definitely see your point. I think it's just how we should include it in those cases and how much we should elaborate on it that I think is the issue. Cheers, and carpe diem! Nascar9919 (he/him • t • c) 15:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The simple answer to the question posed by header: It depends on a whole series of factors. Is the "lower-series" held in support of another series, or is it standalone? How many series race at the venue? How old is the venue? For what proportion of the track's history has the minor series raced at that track? For what proportion of the minor series's history has that series raced at a given track. How many series does a track host? According to Sochi Autodrom, it has only hosted a handful of events, and the only event held at that venue in 2023 was the Russian Circuit Racing Series, so the minor series will have a much greater presence in the article compared to a series of similar standing on Silverstone Circuit (which has a much longer history and has many more events.) This isn't a simple question where we can attribute a hard cut-off. We need to look at each circuit on a case-by-case basis to determine how significant a series is for that venue, and from a central Wikiproject point of view, all we can do is provide guidance (e.g. Formula 2 generally shouldn't get mentioned because it is held exclusivly as a support series to Formula One). However, there may be exceptions to that if F2 held events not in support of F1 (for example). SSSB (talk) 16:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Basically, we should mention all series that were held on a specific race track. An exception should only be made if the facility has such a long and rich history that it would overload the article. Then you should weigh things up and sort them out. With modern racetracks that have only been around for 10 or 20 years, like the Iowa Speedway, I don't yet see the danger of overloading thr article. --Mark McWire (talk) 20:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)