Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 61

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Two different articles on Le Sueur

I just discovered that there are two articles on Le Seur: Jean-François Le Sueur and Jean François Lesueur. Any thoughts on how to fix this?Nrswanson (talk) 13:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll try and merge them. Jean-François Le Sueur is the most common version of his name and that article is the most developed. --Folantin (talk) 13:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Probably just got overlooked. I'd go ahead and create it.Nrswanson (talk) 19:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and created the cat.Nrswanson (talk) 19:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Il maestro di capella?/La Cleopatra or Cleopatra?

Is this opera spelled wrong? I think it might be spelled with 2 ps: Il maestro di cappella.Nrswanson (talk) 01:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Cappella as in A cappella. I also think it's probably Cleopatra not La Cleopatra (see here). --Kleinzach 03:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I am pretty sure it is La Cleopatra. That is what it is entitled on every source I have found and on the Italian Wikipedia Cimarosa article. (I would assume they would know better than us)Nrswanson (talk) 03:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you have any reference books now? Which sources are you using? Oxford give Cleopatra. (Italians like to informally add the definite article, hence I pagliacci etc.) --Kleinzach 04:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
And English speakers sometimes like to informally remove definite articles. ;-) Anyhow, Grove lists the work as:
La Cleopatra (dramma serio, 2, Moretti), St Petersburg, Hermitage, 27 Sept/8 Oct 1789.
Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
PS Grove lists the other one as:
Il maestro di cappella (comic monologue), c1786–92
Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Category:Underpopulated operas by year categories

Can we get rid of this[1]? It's been applied to 200 pages for no rhyme or reason as far as I can see (what constitutes "underpopulated"?). These year categories will fill up naturally. Having this whopping great template is unlikely to be an incentive to anybody to go and create the articles. --Folantin (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you'd need CFD. Then a bot can get rid of the leftovers. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 19:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Now starring at CfD [2]. I hope. --Folantin (talk) 19:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Category:British opera composers

This has just been created - and is being used alongside Category:Opera composers. This begs two questions. First should the higher cat. be retained or is it redundant? Second, should we use British as opposed to English, Scottish etc. (as the singers are categorized)? (My own preference is certainly for the latter.) --Kleinzach 00:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we should keep the higher cat personally because I doubt that a cat of every nationality of opera composer will be created and it may be useful to have one large comprehensive list.Nrswanson (talk) 01:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
No, no, that's not the point. The question is whether each article needs both cats. Sometimes we do this for a special reason (e.g. Cat Operas) but most of the time we don't. --Kleinzach 02:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I set up this category on the lines of French, German, Italian. Doubtless Czech, Russian etc, will follow either from me, if I am feeling listless, or from others.

On the two issues: 1)Redundancy of higher category. I am happy to abolish the higher category if that is the consensus - I was following exisiting practice I thought in keeping both. I see some justice in Nrswanson's point of having a 'complete' list available. 2)British I believe is safest - otherwise there could arise squabbles over someone born in Scotland who studied in England etc. etc. etc. But if anyone wants to create subcategories of British, let a thousand categories blossom - well, not a thousand perhaps. Next step doubtless Category:London opera composers.....Irish by the way should of courese be a separate category (therefore I haven't included Balfe) as Britain comprises only Scotland, Wales and England.Smerus (talk) 06:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Per Smerus. Arguments whether P.G. Wodehouse was a British or an English writer made it onto Wikipedia's list of lamest edit wars, so let's try to avoid that here. Since none of the composers concerned wrote operas before 1603 (and very few before 1707), it's technically correct to call them all "British" (with the exception of the Irish ones, as noted). --Folantin (talk) 07:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Italian and German opera composers (195 articles in the original cats) are not (save perhaps for a few exceptions) in Category:Opera composers. So if we were going to produce a complete list of opera composers someone would have to go through all these articles and add the cat. I'm not against this particularly but I think the onus of doing a cleanup is on those who want to change the practice. (Likewise using 'British' rather than English, Scottish etc. goes against the current more Celt-friendly arrangement.) Anyway what do other people think? --Kleinzach 07:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment: I feel strong(ish) about 'British' but indifferent on the issue of bicategorialism. I will suspend work on categorization until consesnus is reached. If we go for unicategorialism, the main brunt will fall therefore on Category:French composers - for which I feel to some extent morally responsible (for having provoked it), but which Nrswanson actually brought into being.Smerus (talk) 10:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Presumably Category:French opera composers rather than Category:French composers? --Kleinzach 10:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)Yes of course, clumsy meSmerus (talk) 14:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This "X opera composers" category seems more trouble than its worth and will invite the inevitable inflation whereby we have cats for "X symphony composers", "X string quartet composers", "X oratorio composers" etc. --Folantin (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
My understanding on wp policy on categories is that articles should remain in the higher category unless the subcategories cover it completely. I.e. if we ever get to the point where all the composers in national categories, then we empty the top one; until we do, we don't.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but the problem here is that two-thirds of the articles are not in the higher category at the moment. If we take Folantin' s point (with which I'm sympathetic) we would need to change the cat on 195 articles. --Kleinzach 13:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
How about British opera composers, with subcats Scottish, English, Welsh, and, perhaps, Anglo-Irish, to cover composers like Balfe who were of Irish descent, but worked almost entirely in London, for London audiences? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd rather avoid all this because of the potential for insane "category inflation" as stated above. The other reason is we'd probably attract the wrong sort of editor. From my experience in other areas of Wikipedia I know there are people out there who love nothing better than to argue all day over national and ethnic labels. Plus, I think the way the operatic world divides into "nations" isn't really related to passports. For instance, I don't think there's much point splitting German and Austrian composers. These problems can all be avoided by getting rid of the "[Nationality X] opera composer" categories. --Folantin (talk) 14:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Shoemaker's Holiday wrote "perhaps, Anglo-Irish...". Trust me, you don't want to go there. ;-) See Talk:Anglo-Irish. On a more general level, I must say I agree with Folantin, having watched the Catalan nationalists and Spanish Anti-regional-autonomy Brigade periodically slug it out on José Carreras. Personally I'd keep Xnation out of Category:Opera composers. Most of them are categorized by nationality (for better or worse) already in Category:Composers by nationality. I'm happy to help change cats for the 195 if that's the consensus. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Are there no tools for up-merging categories? It is one of the most common outcomes at WP:CFD.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Template:Category redirect has info on this.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly support removing nationality from opera composer cats, in other words putting all German, Italian, British and French opera composers into a single 'opera composer' cat. We might also consider adding in Operetta (61) and zarzuela (14) composers. (This would be similar in structure to the singer categories which IMO work well.)

We need AWB to do the move. (A soft redirect can be put in afterwards.) If no-one here has AWB we could ask Black Falcon who did a faultless recategorization of the singer articles earlier this year. ( A bot run is not a good option given the delays, problems we've encountered.) --Kleinzach 23:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC) P.S. Removing nationality from opera composer cats would also conform with the Category hierarchy at the Composers Project. --Kleinzach 05:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

This is all fine by me. The argument from comparison with Category hierarchy at the Composers Project seems powerful. Are we soliciting comments from other participants before proceeding? - Smerus (talk) 11:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I probably misunderstand what Smerus wrote, but I can't see much of an argument at WP:Composers regarding categorisation. There seems to me much more thought at WP:SUBCAT; I suggest that before any large-scale operations are started, that guideline should be consulted. As for me, I have no preference. If pushed, I would prefer not to have articles in more than one level of a category tree, IOW: Birtwistle is categorised only as "British opera composer". OTOH, having nationality/country as a category has often aroused pointless discussions, and will probably do so here, too. Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I was just following what User:Kleinzach wrote in the entry above mine, as I always attribute good faith to my betters :-} Smerus (talk) 17:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I am missing something here but I can't see any incompatibility between the Category hierarchy at the Composers Project and WP:SUBCAT. The Composers hierarchy just indicates what level of categorization is practical is we want to avoid high-maintenance "category inflation". --Kleinzach 23:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd almost suggest categorising by language, but then, well, most of them would be in at least two categories. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
"I'd almost suggest categorising by language". Not really a good idea. Some German Baroque composers (e.g. Telemann) used three different languages in the same opera. --Folantin (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Are we coming to a conclusion on this topic and its filials (i.e. nationality in general)? If not, how can we do so? Smerus (talk) 09:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we've concluded that it's better to have all the composers in Category:Opera composers and not use nationality subcats. --Kleinzach 09:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, will you then deal with AWB, as mentioned above?Smerus (talk) 10:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't have AWB but I'm working with a bot owner on the Composers Project at the moment. I'll try to get this job done when his bot is free. --Kleinzach 11:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
The job has now been completed. There are now 621 articles in the Category:Opera composers. --Kleinzach 23:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to do this, then the people removing composers from the "Nationality opera composers" category and replacing it with just "Opera composers" should also add the composer to "Nationality composers", or else they won't be in any subcategory of their nationality. For example when removing the category "Italian opera composers", it should be replaced with both "Opera composers" and "Italian composers", not just the former, so that the person is still in a subcategory of "Italian people". --Delirium (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

That is a good point though I've only just seen your comment this morning - I'm in a different time-zone. I was assuming the (Brit/Ital/French/Germ) composers were already in the basic nationality cats, but maybe I shouldn't have. I've done a spot check and so far I haven't found any of these lacking nationality. On the other hand I found one American one that did. --Kleinzach 23:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Watchlist inflation

I've now got about 2,350 items on my watchlist - more than I can handle efficiently. Are other people in the same position? I'd like to reduce my list to about 1,000. I'm wondering whether there might be scope for cooperation here? For example if I monitored German opera, would someone else like to keep an eye on Italian opera? And a third person watch French opera etc etc? (Or perhaps by period?) Does this make sense? Any ideas, comments? --Kleinzach 23:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I see your problem. I haven't been editing as long as you so my list isn't quite so big. I'm not sure what can be done. Have you considered that some of the articles may already be watched by other project members? Maybe you could remove some of the more obvious ones from your list that you know others would already have eyes on without necessarily having to share the wealth so to speak. I could watch some composers and their operas for you as well.Nrswanson (talk) 23:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
How many items do you have on your watchlist? --Kleinzach 01:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I have roughly 400 articles on my watchlist. I would be willing to take 200-300 articles off your hands. I wouldn't want to split things up by topic because I like to keep an eye on articles that I have made significant contributions to and those articles are all over the map. Nrswanson (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but I don't think that's practical. I'm trying to save time here - on a permanent basis - so there has to be a clear overall idea behind the watchist selection. --Kleinzach 02:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC) P.S. I've also already signed off all the voice articles that you've been involved with. --Kleinzach 11:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I have the following in my watch list:
  • Category:Operas by Adolphe Adam
  • Category:Operas by Daniel Auber
  • Category:Operas by Dominick Argento
  • Category:Operas by Edmond Audran
  • Category:Operas by Eugen d'Albert
  • Category:Operas by Francesco Araja
  • Category:Operas by Kurt Weill
  • Category:Operas by Mark Adamo
  • Category:Operas by Samuel Adler
  • Category:Operas by Thomas Adès

from when we did an exercise last year on tagging and appear to have most of their current member articles on watch too, even though a couple of articles have appeared since. Ditto I am watching practically everything Wagnerian on watch from last year's assessment exercise. I'm not willing to go much further due to the problems I have with fatigue and variable energy elvels.--Peter cohen (talk) 09:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on checking I wasn't watching most of these. I have now added another 30 or so pages to my watch list which now contains a beastly 666 pages. Of course, a problem with dividing things up is that some pages are effectively unwatched if anyone goes on holiday.--Peter cohen (talk) 09:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment Kleinzach wrote: "For example if I monitored German opera, would someone else like to keep an eye on Italian opera? And a third person watch French opera etc etc? (Or perhaps by period?) Does this make sense? Any ideas, comments?" I probably have about 450 opera-related articles on my watchlist. Generally speaking any article I've edited significantly, I watch, plus any potentially problematic ones that turn up on my daily sweep through the Opera Bot results, and the bios of prominent living singers. (Geesh! The stuff that turns up in those articles!). I'd be happy to take some off you. Would you like me to watch Category:Italian-language operas for example? Dividing the articles up systematically is probably better. Less likely to have ones fall through the net. The vandal fighting brigade is pretty fast at picking up run of the mill vandalism, sometimes within seconds. I guess the main things that have to be watched out for are 'drive-by additions' of trivia, formatting new stuff added by inexperienced editors, and more subtle vandalism like our friend who wrote this completely spurious (but quite funny) synopsis for Fra i due litiganti il terzo gode. Not to mention these entertaining additions to The Minotaur. [3], [4]. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. If you could take on Category:Italian-language operas that would be great. I'll delete all Italian operas on my watch list except from the 30-odd I've created. That will be a good start. --Kleinzach 13:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I still have over 2,000 items on my watchlist. I'm going to remove all Italian singers - hope someone else can take these on! --Kleinzach 05:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I've probably got most 17th and 18th century operas on my watchlist (the exceptions being some works by Mozart and Handel which were up before I arrived at WP). I can try to add the missing ones. --Folantin (talk) 08:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Any chance you could do French operas generally? There would be a pleasing symmetry if I did German, Voce Italian and you French. It would not be a rigid arrangement. I'm still looking at articles to which I've made largish contributions, irrespective of language/period. --Kleinzach 11:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC) Watchlist now 1,930.
All the works in Category:French-language operas are now on my watchlist.--Folantin (talk) 12:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Much appreciated. --Kleinzach 10:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Eyes please: Angela Gheorghiu

Will be "away from my desk" for until Thursday. Could someone just keep an eye on this. A new editor (single-purpose account) has been attempting to insert BLP violations into the talk page such as this [5] (which I redacted), and sees no reason why similar stuff shouldn't go into the article as well. He seems oblivious to my explanations about BLP policies and the numerous links I've provided. He never leaves edit summaries, puts his comments in random places on the talk page , and uses it like forum. (He also edits as 71.116.78.146 and 71.116.66.201.) Just so you know where he's coming from, take a look at this page from his 'journal' which he links from his Wikipedia user page. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Broken link

I noticed that the link to Opera America's list of the twenty most performed operas was dead. The page has been moved.

I attempted to fix instances of the link. Pages I changed:

I've tried to get every page using the link, but I'm a fairly inexperienced editor, so I don't know how successful I've been. If I've missed any, please make the correction. Rurp (talk) 13:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Folantin (talk) 13:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Composers Project bannering bot run

The Composers Project bot run has now finished and 4,000 articles have been bannered. Category:Opera composers and its subcategories were not included in the (restrained, unassertive) run, however all the historical periods were included (Category:Baroque composers, Category:Romantic composers, Category:20th century classical composers etc.) which will have covered most of the opera composers.

The editorial style of the Composers Project is identical to that here, so harmony should prevail despite banner clutter. The name of the Opera Project appears next to Category:Opera composers on the Composers Project page here. BTW ShepBot by Stepshep did an excellent job. Highly recommended. --Kleinzach 06:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:Persondata

Editing Julius Benedict I noticed a feature I hadn't somehow previously been aware of, a Persondata input (see WP:Persondata). This one in fact was incorrect (had the wrong place of death). The information in this feature doesn't show up in the article itself (and therefore errors are not apparent in looking at the article on screen, only in editing) , but apparently can be picked up in automatic cataloguing etc. Actually it seems to me this feature gives scope for quite widespread 'invisible' vandalism. I don't know if we have a view as a project on whether we should include this feature in biographies - whether or not this is the consensus, I suggest that when we do edits, we check and see that if this feature is present, it is accurate. - Smerus (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the onus is on Wikipedia:WikiProject Persondata to make this work properly. If it isn't being supervised properly then perhaps we should discourage its use? Does anyone else have a view on this? --Kleinzach 23:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Role creator Emilio Venturini

I just created this page and on researching the singer I hit a snag. I could be wrong but I believe Emilio Venturini played the role of Prince Yamadori (baritone role) in the original Madama Butterfly (see here [6]) and not The Bonze (bass role) which the article currently states. I didn't want to change the article without asking though since it looks well sourced. He was a lyric tenor so both roles really don't fit his voice type. However, the tessitura of Yamadori is higher and he was only 26 at the time so my suspicion is that he did play the young Prince and not the old Uncle. Anyone know the truth?Nrswanson (talk) 10:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed the Butterfly article as I found other errors in role creators.Nrswanson (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
For what it's worth: Amadeus has Venturini as the Imperial Commissioner and Wulmann as the Bonze. --Kleinzach 12:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Well I don't think he played the Imperial Commissioner as I have found several sources listing a "Viale" as creating that role. The commissioner is also a bass part which doesn't necessarily mean Venturini couldn't have sung it but it would be odd to cast a lyric tenor in that role. Regardless, that makes three sources listing him in three different roles. It does, however, give us two sources listing Wulmann as the Bonze. Nrswanson (talk) 13:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
My copy of Mosco Carner's Puccini lists Yamadori as a tenor role, as do several other sources. Also some of the confusion may stem from Alfredo Venturini, who was an Italian bass and contemporary of Puccini and sang in many of his operas. Voceditenore (talk) 14:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
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