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Archive 50

Village Pump discussion on information pertaining to current storms

I have posted a discussion at Village Pump (Policy) as a followup to the ANI thread on how to handle information on current tropical cyclones. It can be found at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Wikiproject procedures for WP:NOTNEWS in reference to active storms. TornadoLGS (talk) 23:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Units again

My proposal is to use metric units first in infoboxes and meteorological history sections in Atlantic and Pacific hurricane articles. This is because countries affected by these hurricanes include number of countries using entirely or almost entirely metric units. Only impacts in the United States would use imperial units first. For example, storms impacting both Mexico and US would use metric first in section of impacts in Mexico and imperial first in section of impacts in US. And possibly Belize and Bahamas would use imperial units too. This is example of metric units first in article of Hurricane Otis:

Hurricane Otis was a compact but very powerful tropical cyclone which made a devastating landfall in October 2023 near Acapulco as a Category 5 hurricane. Otis was the first Pacific hurricane to make landfall at Category 5 intensity and surpassed Hurricane Patricia as the strongest landfalling Pacific hurricane on record. The resulting damage made Otis the costliest tropical cyclone to strike Mexico on record. The fifteenth tropical storm, tenth hurricane, eighth major hurricane, and second Category 5 hurricane of the 2023 Pacific hurricane season, Otis originated from a disturbance several hundred kilometers south of the Gulf of Tehuantepec. Initially forecast to stay offshore and to only be a weak tropical storm at peak intensity, Otis instead underwent explosive intensification to reach peak winds of 270 km/h (170 mph) and weakened only slightly before making landfall as a powerful Category 5 hurricane. Once inland, the hurricane quickly weakened before dissipating the following day.[...] Light to moderate southeasterly wind shear displaced convection northwest of Otis's surface circulation during the overnight hours of October 22–23. The lack of vertical alignment and dry mid-level air delayed potential intensification despite an otherwise favorable environment consisting of high sea surface temperatures and abundant atmospheric moisture. Sea surface temperatures ahead of the system averaged 30–31 °C (86–88 °F), above average for this time of year. The high temperatures resulted from a combination of a record-warm September for Mexico, an ongoing El Niño, and the influence of global warming. The system's motion shifted from due north to north-northwest during this time, remaining around 6–8 km/h (4–5 mph). A convective band developed halfway around the storm by the afternoon of October 23, and the surface circulation and thunderstorm activity moved closer together. During the overnight of October 23–24, the storm moved into a region of more favorable conditions, with higher sea surface temperatures and weaker vertical wind shear. Microwave satellite imagery depicted a low-level ring structure, often a precursor to rapid intensification, despite the overall sheared appearance of the system. The storm's forward motion also increased during this time, potentially offsetting the negative impacts of southeasterly wind shear. As a result, upper-level outflow expanded noticeably and the system's core became centered in the convection. This led to Otis beginning an intensification phase that would continue until landfall. As the morning of October 24 progressed, outflow continued to expand in all directions atop Otis and many banding features circulated the storm. The improvement in outflow was accentuated by a powerful jet streak—a wind maxima within the jet stream—which accelerated the rate of latent heat dispersal and fostered convective development. Otis commenced explosive intensification and became a hurricane by 12:00 UTC (07:00 CDT) on October 24. [...] --40bus (talk) 07:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Right now, this is a factor of the Infobox weather event displaying the units for a basin, I believe. Hurricane Juan, an Atlantic hurricane affecting Canada, should absolutely have the metric units first. I believe it could be easy to change the programming for Infobox weather event to be something like: unit = metric. Especially since that infobox is now used worldwide. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:11, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Hurricanehink: why not just display metric first globally since it would be confusing to do it for a few specific countries. Most TCs affect more than one country anyways. Noah, BSBA^Talk 20:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  Yea, make metric the default, and maybe just have a coding switch if it's primarily affecting the US? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Hurricanehink: What Im saying is just use metric first regardless of country which would harmonize things globally. Every country except the US uses metric within the NHC AORs. I don't see a need to use customary units first in any article since it would make things disorderly within a set of season articles. Better to just make them all the same. Noah, BSBA^Talk 00:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  I agree if the US used the metric system, that would harmonize things globally for sure! Unfortunately the US abandoned their efforts to metricate in the 1990s. Also, the NHC uses imperial units as the default, which could be enough justification for keeping Atlantic hurricane season articles as using imperial units first, even if some seasons might feature more systems impacting metric-using countries. Also, this being the English Wikipedia, the US accounts for majority of the views. So, in an ideal world, yea, we'd use metric system first, but I think there should be an exception for US storms and the AHS. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move for Hurricane Alley

Hello! I've requested for Hurricane Alley to be moved to Main Development Region, with the associated move discussion located on the talk page. Your input would be welcome! ArkHyena (talk) 02:00, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Can someone confirm if this image is Hurricane Floyd or Hurricane Fran?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hurricane_in_the_1990s.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hurricane_off_the_east_coast_sometime_in_the_1990s.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hurricane_off_the_east_coast_in_the_1990s.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hurricane_off_the_east_coast_in_the_90s_2.png CurlyHeadCel (talk) 00:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Well where did you get those images? Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 02:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

NOAA/NASA CurlyHeadCel (talk) 00:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Yea, like what website? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

some NOAA archive website I forgot the name of CurlyHeadCel (talk) 01:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It will probably get deleted if you can't remember the name of the website. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

https://earthdata.nasa.gov/ CurlyHeadCel (talk) 02:03, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused. These are all images of Hurricane Humberto (2019) with weird filters applied to make it look like they were old images. I'm not sure if they fall in the scope of either Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons. —TheAustinMan^{(Talk ⬩ Edits)} 01:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you confirm it's not Floyd? CurlyHeadCel (talk) 01:56, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

@CurlyHeadCel: yes, I am 100% certain that is not Floyd, and 100% certain that Humberto is the hurricane depicted. —TheAustinMan^{(Talk ⬩ Edits)} 02:02, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Why do you 100% think it's not Floyd but some other hurricane CurlyHeadCel (talk) 02:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

As I stated elsewhere, a lot of these photographs have 1960s and 1970s quality, not late-1990s as you claim. You are misrepresenting these images at the very least. Im quite convinced TAM is correct given the similarities I have seen between the Humberto images and the ones you have posted. The resemblance is almost uncanny. Noah, BSBA^Talk 02:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Can you please provide me the images that uncannily resemble the edited images then bhai? I got them from the link pasted saar CurlyHeadCel (talk) 02:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Image 3 is almost the exact same as the first image on Hurricane Humberto (2019). ✶Quxyz✶ 02:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Is it the cloud formations, cloud size, eye area? CurlyHeadCel (talk) 02:33, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Did you edit the images? That’s the real question here. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 02:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is the source of all four images. ✶Quxyz✶ 02:50, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

yeah the person had some creepy PFP as well CurlyHeadCel (talk) 02:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

no. I actually found them on discord and I was told they were from a NASA archive from the person who posted them CurlyHeadCel (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Merger discussion for Tropical Storm Debby (2006)

An article that you have been involved in editing—Tropical Storm Debby (2006)—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please follow the (Discuss) link at the top of the article to participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Flux55

Merger discussion for Hurricane Joyce (2000)

An article that you have been involved in editing—Hurricane Joyce (2000)—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please follow the (Discuss) link at the top of the article to participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Flux55

Nomination for deletion of Template:Hurricane Dennis series

Template:Hurricane Dennis series has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. 19:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

2005 Atlantic hurricane season 20 year anniversary approaching

See here for the discussions and collaborations regarding the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, one of the busiest and most destructive seasons, with two hurricanes causing over 1,000 deaths, five retired hurricanes, and 26 articles in total. A featured topic would require 13 featured articles, with all of the retired storms rated at least a good article (and ideally one of the featured). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Should the year be included in the short description of certain articles?

I have been removing the year from short descriptions in articles that already include the year in their title. I believe that including the year in the short description is redundant and unnecessary, as the title itself already contains the year. The year in the title provides enough context, and using it in the short description is not helpful. However, some other editors have disagreed with my changes, pointing out that other tropical cyclone articles do include the year in the short description. Their argument is not convincing, as they have not provided a strong reason for keeping the year in the short description of those articles, and the same rule could be applied to them as well.

For an article with the title Hurricane X (year), I support the following changes to the short description:

−

Category Y (basin) hurricane in (year)

+

Category Y (basin) hurricane

Your feedback is appreciated. _ZZ^Z'S 15:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@Zzzs Sorry no one’s responded to this. I think adding the year to the short description is only necessary when the cyclones don’t have a year in their title, so I’d support this proposal. But making all the short descriptions uniform is an undertaking in itself. JayTee⛈️ 04:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

2023–24 South-West Indian Ocean cyclone season

@MarioProtIV or others: Could anyone fix the final season trackmap since the season is already over? I do not know how to create season summary maps, so thank you to whoever makes it. The map looks like it is missing Ialy and 25S. I would also like to learn how to make these, so please ping me if you would like to teach me. Thank you! 2003 LN6 04:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I will try to get to them soon, but I have mostly done the Atlantic maps so far, so I will see what I can do. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 04:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! It would be greatly appreciated if you could tell me how to make full-season track maps. 2003 LN6 22:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Date formats for NIO season articles

Throughout many articles covering North Indian Ocean cyclone seasons, MDY format is used. However, a few outliers—including the 2024 and 2016 articles—use DMY. Not only is this inconsistent, but per MOS:DATETIES DMY should be used instead of MDY. No country in the basin, much less the very RSMC that officially monitors it, predominantly uses MDY format. What reasoning, if any, is there for these articles to use MDY? ArkHyena (talk) 15:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation hatnotes

So is there a clear consensus on how hatnotes should be used in tropical cyclone articles (or rather, how readers are directed to articles of other storms with the same name)? It bothers me seeing hatnotes on articles of storms that are clearly distinguishable by the year in the title. I took a look at two discussions about this and thought there was an agreement about only keeping the hatnotes on clearly more significant tropical cyclones, and maybe remove them on articles of less significant tropical cyclones. This would comply with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:NOTAMB, and I also suggest that disambiguation pages should only be in the "See also" section of less significant storms. —JCMLuis 💬 16:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I would rather only see them in articles about a specific system and not seasonal articles, where they look rather out of place.Jason Rees (talk) 18:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe there is a clear consensus. If the title is clearly distinguishable by the year, then I don't think one is needed, as I stated in the two discussions that you mentioned. I think most of the disambiguation pages should be merged into the individual "List of named storms" by letter. It's essentially naming trivia for a bunch of storms that otherwise have no relationship to each other. For example, in Hurricane Cindy (2005), I just moved List of storms named Cindy down to see also. But honestly that same page isn't cited, and doesn't have all that much more than what's in List of named storms (C). And that page is useful since they might've been looking for Cinda (which is listed right above Cindy). Or maybe Cynthia. On the other hand, check out the beginning of Hurricane Dennis, which has List of storms named Dennis (since there's a chance they might've been looking for the Dennis in 1981 or 1999), as well as List of storms named Denise due to the potential for the name ambiguity. So I suppose that's a good example of when we need the hatnotes, when there is a legit chance for confusion. But the next storm of 2005, Hurricane Emily (2005), also had a hatnote, for no real reason considering that the page already has the year in the title, so I moved that hatnote down to the see also - "Other storms of the same name". So I don't know if it's a consensus exactly, but IMO there shouldn't be any hatnotes when the year is in the title, or in the cases where the year still doesn't help (like Tropical Storm Linda (1997) needing to also mention Hurricane Linda (1997) in the same year, just in a different basin). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:59, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

This seems like a pretty good evaluation of the situation. My one concern with merging "List of storms named X" articles is that the List of named storms by letter articles seem to be a bit incomplete. I might go through it and try to beef up some of the descriptions that are no more than an en dash. ✶Quxyz✶ 20:48, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Most of the "List of storms named X" articles are based on the hundreds of dab pages. There's still the problem that they're largely unsourced. I think they could actually be featured lists, and a fantastic way of linking every named storm, if they were improved, and had sources for each storm/description. Not sure if that's what you had in mind, but it would be a great way of paralleling the other ways that people can find every storm: storms by area (like List of Florida hurricanes), storms by year/basin (tropical cyclones in 1991/1991 Pacific typhoon season), and storms by intensity (like List of Atlantic tropical storms). The "List of storms named X" adds another way for readers to accomplish that, and probably a lot better than relying on the hundreds of the dab/set index article pages. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I believed the common practice was to include hatnotes only for systems without the year in the title, which would satisfy WP:NOTAMB as you have brought up, and at one point I went around trying to move the "List of storms named X" links to the See also sections instead. Over the past 2 or 3 years I've seen most of that undone, though I haven't really been around enough recently to notice by whom. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 16:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

That's a shame. Not sure if we need to make it an official policy, but the hatnotes and such have always annoyed me a bit, mostly for how messy they make the top of the pages. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)