Talk:African Greeks

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Africa: Egypt / Ethiopia / Sudan High‑importance

	Africa portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
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	Egypt portal This article is supported by WikiProject Egypt (assessed as High-importance).
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Ancient Egypt Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ancient Egypt, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Egyptological subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ancient EgyptWikipedia:WikiProject Ancient EgyptTemplate:WikiProject Ancient EgyptAncient Egypt articles

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WikiProject Ancient Egypt to-do list:

Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

Standardize the Chronology.

A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

Classical Greece and Rome Mid‑importance

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Greece: Byzantine Mid‑importance

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Feedback from New Page Review process[edit]

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: This appears to be the same subject covered in African Greeks.

Onel5969 ^{TT me} 10:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You believe that this article, titled "African Greeks", covers the same subject material as African Greeks? Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! Aearthrise (talk) 15:33, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that the above was accidentally posted at this page because Talk:Black Greeks was a redirect pointing to this page _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I beg that you pardon my jest @Onel5969! Aearthrise (talk) 18:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I didn't pick up on the redirect. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 19:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Black Greeks into African Greeks[edit]

Seems like these two articles are about the same subject. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They're not the same subject. One is about African immigrants in modern Greece, and this article is in reference to Greek communities native to Africa. Aearthrise (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide RS that directly make this distinction and provide significant coverage of each subject independently? N.b., most Google Scholar search results for "Black Greeks" are about either Greek life or Classicists in thee Caribbean. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a list of different sources mentioning the historic "African Greeks" since ancient times, as opposed to recent African immigrants & refugees in Modern Greece:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Greece_from_the_Earliest_Pe/-0qB0UMQd0QC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22african+greeks%22&pg=PA65&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Sabbath_in_History/E3AaAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22african+greeks%22&pg=PA23&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_History_of_Ancient_Greece_Its_Coloni/VBFZAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22african+greeks%22&pg=PA347&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_history_of_the_world_from_the_reign/sl8OAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22african+greeks%22&pg=PA272&printsec=frontcover Aearthrise (talk) 18:17, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

These sources establish that African Greeks are a notable subject stretching back to antiquity; they do not by themselves support the distinction that modern immigrants from Africa and their descendants are not part of this subject. The ideal source would be peer reviewed articles or books by scholarly press that contrast and make this distinction between the ancient and the modern with the same Black vs. African terminology _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here are sources for Afro-Greeks, Black Greeks - Blacks living in Modern Greece descended from recent African immigrants/refugees who settled in Europe.

"Afro-Greeks"

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Giannis/yzUNEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Afro+Greeks&pg=PT28&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/African_Europeans/2qj7DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Afro+Greeks+immigrants&pg=PT173&printsec=frontcover

"Black Greeks"

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Summary_of_Mirin_Fader_s_Giannis/5ZR6EAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Black+Greeks+immigrants&pg=PT11&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Shadows_of_a_Man/1_5wDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Black+Greeks+immigrants&pg=PT173&printsec=frontcover

The two ideas both have to do with Africa, but one (African Greeks) defines ethnic Greek communities in Africa, and the other (Black/Afro-Greeks) defines recent African immigrants/refugees and their descendants living in Modern Greece. Aearthrise (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Searching through African Europeans (the second source), I see that it states at one point (no page number unfortunately, but the prior link should surface it) The experiences of Afro-Greeks who have been living in the country for centuries; this suggests that the historical and modern are intentionally combined by this source. Meanwhile none of the cited sources positively assert that there is a division. Moreover, biographies of Giannis Antetokounmpo are not a particularly good source for establishing a difference or lack thereof--we want to be looking at ethnographic, anthropological, or historical works studying and/or describing the presence of Greeks of African origin, not mass market biographies of individuals (which would be fine for biographical information about Anteokounmpo or others, but cannot be compared to peer-reviewed works about the population of African Greeks as a whole). _signed,Rosguill ^talk 19:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The whole phrase you picked out reads The experiences of Afro-Greeks who have been living in the country for centuries came to be known by the Greek population and by other African Europeans when Alexandra Tzavella interviewed black Greeks from Avato...; this phrase does not suggest in any way that Afro-Greeks are the same idea as Greek communities native to Africa. It only mentions the first African immigrant community in Modern Greece from Avato, and the "Black Greeks" living there.

Again, African Greeks, i.e. Greek communities native to Africa, and Black Greeks, i.e. African immigrants living in Modern Greece, are two completely different topics. Aearthrise (talk) 19:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see the distinction you're making now, my mistake. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:22, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]