Talk:Al-Kabri

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Merge suggestion?[edit]

Should this be merged with al-Kabri massacre? Tiamut 11:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest to keep the 1948 incident article, but to merge with the main article on Kabri town.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merger[edit]

NO MERGE:

There is no consensus for a merge. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:35, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article covers a single period (British Mandate) of an ancient village, still existent - Kabri in the Galilee. The Mandatory period is not so significantly covered to have an article just on that period, so I propose this article be merged into Kabri, the modern village in Israel, which is the same place as Al-Kabri in the Mandatory period and carrying the same name in Hebrew prenounsation. This merger is in accordance with similar cases of Amka, Ashdod and Caesarea. Please vote keep or merge.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it is difficult to understand this proposal: the Israeli Al-Kabri was established in the north-west part of the site of Al-Kabri, ie not fully "the same place". Also: the Israeli Al-Kabri is only one of several Israeli settlements that now uses the land that belonged to Al-Kabri and/or Tarshiha, see the article for the others. Also, it is a bit disingenuous just to mention the above cases, without mentioning, say, Talk:Alma, Israel. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:57, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Greyshark is being a little disingenuous to suggest this article only covers the British Mandate period when it clearly discusses the town going back to the crusader period. The two articles make it pretty clear that Al-Kabri was a Palestinain town depopulated in 1948 - having enough sources discussing it in its own right to merit an article. While Kabri is an Israeli Kibbutz, as Huldra points out, one of several Israeli settlements that now occupies the land of the former Palestinian town. Dlv999 (talk) 14:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge—we have many cases like this, and there's no point in keeping all these articles separate. In history many places have come and gone, and it is very rare to have separate articles for separate historical periods of the same place. The claim that other villages were built on al-Kabri's land and therefore it's not the same place doesn't hold water because the expansive land that each village had during that period (sometimes tens of thousands of dunams) was a result of contemporary land ownership laws and has no bearing on whether the village core was actually located, what the village history was, etc. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:44, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - per Huldra. Not the same place, and sources discuss al-Kabri, the Palestinian village, as a subject of its own, not simply as part of the history of Kabri. nableezy - 13:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Crusader "Cabra"[edit]

Although it is possible to find sources (e.g. Grootkerk, Khalidi) that identify Cabra with Kabri, the more accepted identification seems to be with Khirbet el-Qabra (176/258). I'm replacing this sentence. Zero^talk 00:12, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, but I think we should keep something like: "Al-Kabri was formerly thought to have been the Crusader place known as Cabra (Khalidi-ref, Grootkerk-ref), but Cabra is presently identified with Khirbet el-Qabra.(ref)" Otherwise some editor with the Khalidi-book will just re-add it. On places like Beitunia, all the different suggested identifications are listed, not just the latest. (Btw, what is the page-no. on Frankel, 1988?) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If I might ask, where did you guys find these sources? Do you have PDFs of them? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tevet 5775 22:40, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Khalidi" refers to the book referenced in the article (Khalidi, 1992, "All that remains"), on p. 19. Grootkerk is on p. 11, (Soloman Grootkerk, 2000, "Ancient sites in Galilee, A Toponymic Gazetteer"). I have Khalidi in hardback (and my scanner is broken at the moment), but I could send you the Grootkerk-part if you email me. Nice to see you back! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! That would be great. I don't want to buy the Khalidi book as it's 50 USD on Amazon and 43 on JSTOR—and I'm very far from the NYPL right now—so it's very much appreciated, haha. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tevet 5775 23:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We have a problem here, since Khalidi is actually a few years after Frankel. So describing the situation chronologically might not work. Also, Grootkerk (who is an aggregator of sources rather than an originator) has Cabra for Khirbet el-Qabra too (pp.190–191). Unfortunately, neither Grootkerk nor Khalidi give a source. Petersen (Gazetteer of Muslim Palestine, Part 1, p.192) accepts Frankel's judgement. As further confirmation of Le Quiebre, there is Barag (ref 8), who cites "G. Beyer: Die Kreuzfahrergebiete Akko und Galilaea, ZDPV 67 (1945), pp. 183-260", which is worth quoting in full. His text (p.191) has "Le Quiebre (el-kābri)", with the following footnote:

6 km sö von ez-zib. — Röhricht (a. a. O. S. 269 Anm. 4) sucht dagegen hier Cabra, ein Zubehör des Lehens S. Georges de Lebaene, wofür es aber eine bessere Identifikation gibt (s. unten S. 199). Hingegen wird Quiebre mit Caphara gleichzusetzen sein, das als Zubehör des Castellum regis im Jahre 1220 mit an den Deutschen Orden verkauft wurde (s. unten S. 195). Im Jahre 1291 wurden el-kābri und der ihm benachbarte teil tell mefschūch vom Sultan zur frommen Stiftung bestimmt; vgl. Quatremere, Histoire des Sultans Mamlouks II, 1 (1842) S. 131 (verbesserte Lesung bei Clermont-Ganneau, RAO 2 [1898] S. 56). [I'm not sure about the word "mefschūch" as my copy is not clear; the "m" could be "n" preceded by some other letter.] Zero^talk 09:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Following Beyer's hint that there is a better identification of Cabra on p199, we find there "Cabbara (Cabra; chirbet kābra)". Zero^talk 09:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Guerin has Cabra (Gal. II, p.32). Zero^talk 09:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cabbara? That shows up once in these old Jerusalemite records: [1] (as does Le Quiebre thrice) The language is Old French apparently, which really is very similar to Latin. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 9 Tevet 5775 04:09, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Add Geography Tab from Tel Kabri[edit]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add Geography Tab from Tel Kabri

The Geography Tab of Tel Kabri discusses the same four springs and geographical area that were on the land of Al-Kabri. Insert:

==Geography==

Al-Kabri was at the eastern end of the Western Galilee coastal plain. It was less than 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) from the sea, with the Ga'aton River nearby to the south. The closest modern city is Nahariyya to the west. The villages lands were home to four springs: Ayn Mafshuh, Ayn Fawwar, Ayn al-'Asal, and Ayn Kabri.^[1] ^[2] It is these springs that have brought people to al-Kabri since the Neolithic.^[2]

after ===Israeli Period===

Literature:

Tsuk, T. (2002). "Chapter 3: The Springs of Kabri". In A., Kempinski (ed.). Tel Kabri: The 1986–1993 Excavations Seasons. Emery and Claire Yass Publications in Archaeology. pp. 15–18. ISBN 978-965-266-015-2.

Western.galilee (talk) 17:22, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -Lemonaka‎ 17:16, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Lemonaka, thanks for the answer. I did my best making a more precise request, although I don't know exactly how to go about this. I'd like for a Geography Tab to be added to this article. I wouldn't know how to express that in a "change X to Y format. I suggest adopting the Geography Tab that's in the article "Tel Kabri", as it describes roughly the same lands and already has good sources. Any tips? Western.galilee (talk) 11:39, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Western.galilee:

In progress: Requested source from WP:RX, will implement once verified. Please make sure everything in your addition is supported by the reference. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 00:58, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 17:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Correct population figure[edit]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "In 1945, it had a population of 1,520" to "In 1945, it had a population of 1,530" Western.galilee (talk) 17:09, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks! Cocobb8 (talk) 17:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Please also fix the same figure in the introduction, as it still says 1,520 there Western.Galilee (talk) 13:58, 4 Nov 2023 (UTC)

Done. :-) Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 23:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

^ Cite error: The named reference Khalidi was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Tsuk (2002), p. 15.

[Khalidi-1] Cite error: The named reference Khalidi was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[FOOTNOTETsuk200215-2] Tsuk (2002), p. 15.

[1]

[2]