Talk:Ancient Jewish art

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To do[edit]

@Homerethegreat: I have started reviewing this new page. It is obviously notable and a work-in-progress so here's some details which seem to need further attention:

The source "ANCIENT JEWISH ART AND ARCHAEOLOGY IN THE DIASPORA" is used repeatedly with different page references. This needs expanding to detail exactly which author and work this is and citing with Harvard referencing or the like to indicate the particular pages.
The lead needs an initial paragraph to introduce and define the topic.

Andrew🐉(talk) 10:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, I'll deal with it once I free up. Regarding the lead I believe you're right, I will work on it once I'm free. Thank you :). Homerethegreat (talk) 10:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added author name (Rachel Hachlili). :) Homerethegreat (talk) 11:01, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've done a lead paragraph, feel free to critic :). Homerethegreat (talk) 19:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by AirshipJungleman29 talk 19:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that ancient Jewish art in late antiquity is epitomized by the biblical themed murals of the Dura-Europos synagogue in Syria? Source: Rachel, Hachlili (1998). Ancient jewish art and archaeology in the diaspora. Brill. ISBN 978-9004108783. OCLC 470279305. https://search.worldcat.org/title/470279305
- Reviewed:

Created by Homerethegreat (talk). Self-nominated at 19:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Ancient Jewish art; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing: - n
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - n
Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: QPQ not needed. The article contains significant uncited material, and the hook fact is not itself cited in the article. These issues need to be resolved Homerethegreat. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Homerethegreat: Please address the above. Z1720 (talk) 02:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the sentence in a clear manner as requested. Apologies for the late response. Homerethegreat (talk) 21:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC) Regarding sourcing, is this alright: https://smarthistory.org/synagogue-dura-europos/ ? Thank you for your time. Homerethegreat (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: Is this ready to be approved? If not, what else needs to be done? Z1720 (talk) 18:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

there are still entire paragraphs with no citations, failing WP:DYKCITE. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry @AirshipJungleman29:, @Z1720: I did not notice, I must have associated the outline with the lead for some reason. I've fixed it. Anything else? Homerethegreat (talk) 07:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: Have your concerns been resolved? Is there anything else that needs to happen for this to be approved? Z1720 (talk) 15:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see where the article states, or which citation supports, the assertion that Dura-Europa "epitomizes" ancient Jewish art. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and it plainly isn't true! When the murals were uncovered about a century ago everyone was astonished. There might be a hook in that. For refs see the article on the site, which I've linked in the hook. Johnbod (talk) 02:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Homerethegreat: Please address the above. Z1720 (talk) 19:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, any number of hooks saying that they are the most impressive/extensive etc ancient Jewish murals would be correct, & should be easy to reference. What they are emphatically not is in any way typical of other survivals. They are unique & stand alone, so "epitome" is not the right word. Johnbod (talk) 04:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for late response but I will be able to address the issue only later. In the meanwhile if you prefer another word to “epitome” than please feel free to change to whatever best suits Wiki rules, I agree it’s not the right word in retrospect so it can be changed to “characterized”. Thank you for the understanding. Homerethegreat (talk) 07:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the issues cannot be addressed in a timely manner, the DYK should be closed as unsuccessful. The review was started a month and a half ago and the problems have still not been fixed. Fritzmann (message me) 15:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

' The article is currently in a good state and the verification issues were addressed. However, the hook as written does not match the text of the article. Even with the suggested language modification, it doesn't really work. We need a new hook. Given the age of the nom, I'm putting a time clock of one week to get a new hook proposed and passed. @ Homerethegreat Please provide a new hook. The hook must match exactly or close to exactly the prose text found within the article with an inline citation to a reliable source. The failure of the last hook was largely due to the fact that article's prose did not match the hook fact closely. Keep that in mind when proposing a new hook. Get this done ASAP or we will be rejecting this nomination.4meter4 (talk) 16:18, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I propose the following:

alt1 ... did you know that in ancient Jewish art, symbolic motifs such as the menorah were incorporated, the latter becoming a symbol of the Jewish people? “ citation: https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/jewa/hd_jewa.htm

I hope this is alright, feel free to change it. Thank you for the opportunity to try again. Homerethegreat (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Homerethegreat This is a good attempt but I notice that the article itself has a more nuanced take on the use of the menorah. I would suggest the following based on the article's language:

alt2 ... that in ancient Jewish art the menorah was originally used sparingly, but after the destruction of the Second Temple it evolved into a frequently used symbol of the Jewish people?

I will need another reviewer to examine this hook since I proposed it. @Homerethegreat It would be helpful to that reviewer to provide the sources for that information to verify the hook below. 4meter4 (talk) 20:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4meter4 Sure no problem, but perhaps it’s best to say Second Temple since the first temple was also destroyed and we don’t want to confuse anyone. Homerethegreat (talk) 04:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer for alt2 hook needed.4meter4 (talk) 20:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see an end-of-sentence citation for the sentence containing the word 'sparingly'.--Laun chba ller 20:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Homerethegreat did you see the comment by Launchballer He is requesting that an inline citation be added to the sentence: "Symbols such as the menorah and the shewbread table were used sparingly, primarily as representations of priestly duties." At DYK we require any sentence with content found in a hook fact to have an inline citation directly following that information. It can't just be a citation at the end of a paragraph.4meter4 (talk) 15:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing it out 4meter4, I clarified the sentence pointed out by Launchballer and added an inline citation directly based on the source, it is in Hebrew and speaks also of Jewish religious authorities initially opposing such figurative expressions of the objects of the Temple. Is there anything else? Homerethegreat (talk) 19:32, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Launchballer does this satisfy your concerns?4meter4 (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have just noticed a large amount of close paraphrasing in the article; see the talk page for an example. The article has been tagged, and will likely need a near-complete rewrite. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Homerethegreat, did you see this?4meter4 (talk) 01:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No response from the nominator in several days. We clearly can't run an article with close paraphrasing issues. It's time to reject and move on.4meter4 (talk) 15:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CLOP tag[edit]

The article contains significant close paraphrasing, especially from Hachlili 1998. An example below:

Wikipedia article	Source
"In Late Antiquity Jewish art, four ritual objects - the lulav, ethrog, shofar, and flask - commonly appear alongside the menorah. These objects are associated with Sukkoth, the Feast of the Tabernacles, a significant festival during the Second Temple period. This festival, marking the final harvest of the year, was one of the three annual pilgrimages in the Jerusalem Temple. Diaspora Jewish art differs from that in the Land of Israel; for instance, the flask in diaspora art replaces the incense shovel found in Israel. Additionally, Torah scrolls emerge as a unique element in diaspora art, while the hanging lamp, prevalent in Israeli Jewish art, is absent in the diaspora. Common combinations of these ritual objects in synagogue mosaics and reliefs include the lulav, ethrog, shofar, and flask; the lulav, ethrog, and shofar; the lulav and ethrog; and the lulav and shofar."	"The four ritual objects (lulav, ethrog, shofar and flask) that appear in the Jewish art of Late Antiquity, customarily flanking the menorah are associated with the festival of the Feast of the Tabernacles (Succoth). During the Second Temple period, this festival came to be regarded as the most important of the three annual pilgrimages celebrated in the Jerusalem Temple... In diaspora art, the flask appears to have replaced the incense shovel that appears in the art of the Land of Israel. A unique diaspora addition to the ritual objects are the Torah scrolls. Notably lacking from the group of ritual objects appearing in diaspora art is the hanging lamp that appears in the Jewish art of the Land of Israel. The most popular combinations of the ritual objects are as follows: • Lulav, ethrog, shofar and flask • Lulav, ethrog and shofar • Lulav and ethrog • Lulav and shofar"

This is only representative; most sections contain similar levels of close paraphrasing. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]