Talk:Apostasy in Christianity

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Assessment Talk Section[edit]

This section is for assessment discussions for the WP:Christianity assessment department.

March 29th[edit]

I upgraded this article to C quality but lowered the importance to Low. I think that the article is good, but still needs some work. There are lots of primary source quotes, which is good for a paper to turn into class... but is a bit clunky for a Wiki Article. In addition the source quotes are a bit long. Try to boil them down a little bit to shorter in text quotes rather than offset block quotes (3 lines or less). Also, use the {{bibleverse}} template to add links to full texts of Biblical information rather than putting them all in text (the text box with the three verses is ok, but link to other passages). They syntax for the {{bibleverse}} is {{bibleverse|book number|book|chapter:verse-chapter:verse|version}} (leave the book number blank for books with no number) so you could do {{bibleverse|1|Corinthians|1:1-2:2|esv}} or {{bibleverse||John|1:1-14}} and you would get1 Corinthians 1:1–2:2 or John 1:1–14 ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC) [reply]

De-baptism[edit]

The article could maybe mention the recent phenomenon of de-baptisms, and explain at the same time that baptisms are held to possess an indelible sacramental character which cannot be removed even after the act of apostasy. Concerning the permanency of the act, the article should also note that the Catholic Church does in fact re-welcome individuals who choose to re-enter her bosom, especially since this attitude was recommended by Jesus himself in the parable of the Prodigal Son. [1] [2] ADM (talk) 23:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Permanence of Apostasy[edit]

It is unclear what the second and third sentences of this paragraph have to do with the paragraph title. Also, the reference used, #4, does not link to a particular bible, but to a line which may vary between bibles. compare to references #1,2,3. 174.7.7.110 (talk) 03:46, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Signifcant Updates to Article[edit]

Since this article was in the "Start-Class" I have sought to significantly update it following the guidelines laid out by Wikipedia. I've spent well over 50 hours in the research and writing of this article. This does not make me an expert, just someone who had the interest and time to invest in such a worthwhile project. The research for this article is far from complete since I need to do primary research on all the early Christian quotes found in the Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs under the topic "Salvation" and subheading: "Can those who are saved ever be lost?" (see pages 586-591). I think that it would only be fair and appropriate to read and provide the fuller context for each of the quotes used to support the subheading. This will take a substantial amount of time, but I feel that it will provide readers with a more accurate picture of what post-apostolic writers (60-300 AD) communicated about apostasy. Eventually I would like to add pictures of Augustine, Luther, Melanchthon, and Wesley to improve the look of the article. I plan on including the views from Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Messianic Judaism, and the Lutheran Missour Synod to the section on Denominations that Affirm Apostasy. It is my hope that others will provide suggestions and interact with my updates here before making significant changes. It was my intention to adhere to the standards set by Wikipedia for their articles: maintain a neutral point of view; no original research; use verifiable and reliable resources. Please let me know if you think I have failed to abide by these standards, thanks.ClassArm (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dates of denominational recognition of apostasy[edit]

The "dates" provided are dates taken from a single source of when United States-based branches of each of these denominations, according to the source, first recognized apostasy. However, even the source recognizes that these dates are not necessarily the denomination's earliest worldwide dates, and since Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia, I am removing these single-source, single-country dates. 173.57.113.246 (talk) 17:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ The Handbook of United States Denominations says, "It is difficult to give a precise date for the origin of this church, since there is disagreement over the distinctive nature of the church" (94). The Catholic teaching on apostasy is found in The Catechism of the Catholic Church (first published in the United States in 1994, and the Second Edition in 2003). According to Pope John Paul II it is "presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine" (Catechism, "Apostolic Letter"). See sections 161-162; and 1849-1861, obtained at http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
  2. ^ "The Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord" reads: "Thus many receive the Word with joy, but afterwards fall away again, Luke 8:13. But the cause is not as though God were unwilling to grant grace for perseverance to those in whom He has begun the good work, for that is contrary to St. Paul, Phil. 1:6; but the cause is that they wilfully turn away again from the holy commandment [of God], grieve and embitter the Holy Ghost, implicate themselves again in the filth of the world, and garnish again the habitation of the heart for the devil. With them the last state is worse than the first, 2 Pet. 2:10, 20; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 10:26; Luke 11:25" (XI. "Election," paragraph 42). Obtained at http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/soliddeclaration.pdf
  3. ^ See "Does Doctrine Matter?" By Donald N. Bastian available at http://fmhistory.org/Documents/Does%20Doctrine%20Matter.pdf
  4. ^ "We believe that those who abide in Christ have the assurance of salvation. However, we believe that the Christian retains his freedom of choice; therefore, it is possible for him to turn away from God and be finally lost. (A) Assurance: Matt. 28:20; I Cor. 10:13; Heb. 5:9. (B) Endurance: Matt. 10:22; Lk. 9:62; Col. 1:23; Rev. 2:10-11; 3:3-5. (C) Warnings: Jn. 15:6; Rom. 11:20-23; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 3:12; 10:26-29; II Pet. 2:20-21. (D) Finally Lost: Jn. 15:6; I Cor. 9:27; Heb. 6:4-6." "Statements of Faith," obtained at http://www.generalbaptist.com/cofa/statements.htm
  5. ^ See Salvation Story: Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine, 83-84, obtained at http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/50f73564cddae39480256cf4005d2262/f46673a32c86611a80256e4e00477c1f/$FILE/sastory.pdf
  6. ^ "We believe that all persons, though in the possession of the experience of regeneration and entire sanctification, may fall from grace and apostatize and, unless they repent of their sins, be hopelessly and eternally lost." "Articles of Faith," obtained at http://www.nazarene.org/ministries/administration/visitorcenter/articles/display.aspx
  7. ^ See Position Paper "The Security of the Believer" at http://www.ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/pp_downloads/pp_4178_security.pdf
  8. ^ See A Trestise of the Faith and Practice of the National Association of Free Will Baptists, Inc., Chapter XIII Perseverance of the Saints and the Appendix to Chapter XIII available at http://www.nafwb.org/files/images/treatise09.pdf

POV[edit]

First of all, a POV tag shouldn't be removed until there is in consensus. Usually takes more than a week - sometimes resolution takes years (or forever).

Second of all, this article is well-researched and crafted BUT the result reads like a research paper written by someone with a POV - starting with the lede: "a survey of the warning passages in the New Testament reveals at least three dangers which could lead a Christian to commit apostasy" ... a survey by WHO? 'Dangers?' 'Commit?' - these words make it seem like apostasy is a sin universally derided that happens to unsuspecting Christians. Is it ever a choice? It is a condition universally presumed as 'Bad'? If so, where is that quoted? What is the oppositional view? Much work has obviously gone into this article, but now it needs to be raised up from essay to encyclopedia. A look at an article like "adultery" may help give an idea of how a topic like this can be more neutrally presented. EBY (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

EBY, I read the article on "adultery' and did not find it any more neutrally presented. After reading your comments, and then the article, I am not sure why you feel this article has a POV problem except in one area (see below). All the questions you raise have been answered directly in the article itself. You wrote: "a survey of the warning passages in the New Testament reveals at least three dangers which could lead a Christian to commit apostasy" ... a survey by WHO?" The footnote provided is from New Testament scholar B. J. Oropeza, who wrote a PhD dissertation on Paul and Apostasy. In it he surveys Apostasy in Church History from the early church through the reformation and interacts with the most recent books on the topic. Well known and high respected Reformed Calvinists Thomas Schreiner and Ardel Caneday said Oropeza's survey was "excellent." Would adding the words "New Testament Scholar B. J. Oropeza says," help make the difference for you? You also wrote: "'Dangers?' 'Commit?' - these words make it seem like apostasy is a sin universally derided that happens to unsuspecting Christians. Is it ever a choice?" The sin of apostasy was universally understood as being a bad thing and a danger to all Christians as evidenced by the New Testament writers, the early church fathers, and other significant theologians. I am not sure why you would ask, "Is it ever a choice' when apostasy is clearly defined as a conscious choice right at the beginning of the article and also at the end. The beginning of the article reads: Apostasy is "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian...." "Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ." Apostasy does not happen to "unsuspecting Christians" because, by definition, it is a conscious choice. You further asked: "It is a condition universally presumed as 'Bad'? If so, where is that quoted?" Apostasy in Christianity is considered universally "bad" because apostasy involves severing ones saving relationship with the Savior Jesus Christ. There were plenty of quotes from the New Testament writers, early church fathers, and significant theologians who clearly saw apostasy as a bad thing since it leads to eternal separation from God (variously described as eternal death, eternal punishment, eternal fire, no inheritance in God’s kingdom, hell, eternal damnation, and etc.). Christianity says God saves people from sin and its consequences (hell) through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ. It necessarily follows that if a Christian abandons their faith/trust in Christ that they will experience the judgment of hell. I am not sure what you are looking for by this question since it is already answered in the article. I have read about every Bible Dictionary, Theological Dictionary, and Christian Encyclopedia in print on the topic of Apostasy in Christianity and I am not seeing any of them having to explain why apostasy in Christianity is "bad" when it seems that its result (eternal separation from God in hell) speaks for itself. This article provides more scholarly information on the topic than any single article that I have read on the topic. You asked: "What is the oppositional view?" The oppositional view is brought out in the implication section which reads: "Apostasy is certainly a biblical concept, but the implications of the teaching have been hotly debated. The debate has centered on the issue of apostasy and salvation. Based on the concept of Gods sovereign grace, some hold that, though true believers may stray, they will never totally fall away. Others affirm that any who fall away were never really saved. Though they may have "believed" for a while, they never experienced regeneration. Still others argue that the biblical warnings against apostasy are real and that believers maintain the freedom, at least potentially, to reject God's salvation." Granted, the oppositional view could be further expanded with direct quotes from those who hold to the various positions (i.e., Reformed Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists). If it would help in the removal of the POV tag to expand the oppositional view, then I think I could work on getting the primary quotes together for such an expansion. Apart from the oppositional view, I am not understanding your other concerns impacting the POV of the article. Your questions were answered in the article itself. The article uses respected scholars and reputable books and resources in its contents throughout. I want the article to improve so I will add more info on the oppositional view. Will this be enough to remove the POV tag? If not, please explain further. Thanks,ClassArm (talk) 03:37, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
EBY, I have addressed your concerns regarding POV by answering your questions above and by adding a new section "Different perspectives on apostasy". Unless you have further concerns I think the POV tag should be removed. I will await your response before removing the tag. Thanks,ClassArm (talk) 18:08, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Attempted contact with EBY but no response. EastTN made a number of changes to address POV concerns. With no response I took it that there are no longer POV concerns. Thus, the POV tag has been removed.ClassArm (talk) 22:41, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

compare with the same article on Islam[edit]

Comparing with the topic "Apostasy in Islam" this article is completely focusing on another matter. While the former is focused on the punishment of apostates in Islam, the latter is about the theological meaning and implications of apostasy from within the Christian religion. Check the Catholic Encyclopedia online to see a history of punishments prescribed for heretics and apostates in Christianity. To bring a more balanced picture, perhaps a new section must be added to both articles on Islam and on Christianity. Otherwise it shows a very subjective and "Chrisitan" point of view: As if an outsider to Islam and insider to Christianity wrote both of the articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.142.124.175 (talk) 16:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Adding some bible verse to give a more neutral article[edit]

June 2013[edit]

Some clarifications of salvation and faith in John 10 which are worth mentioning:

True Salvation (mutual relationship) – The Shepherd knows his sheep, and his sheep knows the Shepherd. (John 10:14)

True Faith of a sheep – If the sheep hears the Shepherd’s voice (gate opens), the sheep will follow and enter it but avoid and run away from a stranger's voice. (John 10)

Therefore, I would like to give the following suggestions for the sake of neutrality of the article:

1. Apostasy of a person could be understood as John 10:1, so it is known by God (Jesus) that the person is a "thief" even the "thief" believes that he is saved or he is a "sheep" by entering the "sheep pen".

2. Also, it is important to emphasize on God as the final judgment such as Eccl9:1, Jonah3:9, Job28:23, etc. and the importance of mentioning our own limitations or our only followable method from God's gift (e.g. 1John4:6)

3. Some Biblical views in response to some topics mentioned in the article:

a. "Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss. Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve Apostles, became an apostate.[1]"

Bible's perspective - Free choice of man < (less than) God’s "knowledge" - 1John 3:20 (Only God knows the choices of man (2Tim 2:19); we are “naked” and “open” in front of God - Heb4:13, Ps44:22)

- Judas’ free choice: Mat 26:14-16, Mt 27:5

- Jesus’ “knowledge”: Mt 24:22, 24 (if that were possible)

b. "As Fink puts it, "persons worried about apostasy should recognize that conviction of sin in itself is evidence that one has not fallen away."[123]"

- Self-reorganization of such conviction is evidence of the Holy Spirit or our conscience (can refer to "Methodism" of John Wesley), yet the persons worried about (kept worrying consistently) apostasy “fall” to another sin of not trusting fully to God (this worry became the persons’ “idol” such that it is greater than Word of God, for if you are saved (sin forgiven as Ro3:23), you are saved, once and for all (the Cross, and confession with God’s graces 1John1:9).

Although I am not in the project and I am new to here, I would like to let all to receive the true gospels from God rather than just desires in my heart or my own interpretations on the Word of God. Please kindly consider my suggestion!

Jasper

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Thank You for improving the links ClassArm (talk) 13:04, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Theologians who affirmed the impossibility of apostasy[edit]

The section I have named does not exist in the article - why? There is an extensive list of "theologians" - mostly Protestant - who "affirm" the possibility of apostasy. There is zero discussion in the article about the impossibility of it. It would seem profitable to give some discussion to "perseverance of the saints" or at least mention that a contrary doctrine exists in many ecclesial communities. 2600:8800:1880:C359:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 04:43, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The possibility of apostasy in pretty much every civilised country is guaranteed by law, it's called Freedom of religion. Opinion of theologians doesn't matter, it's not their field. Trasz (talk) 20:25, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:QUOTEFARM and WP:LONGQUOTE![edit]

To editor ClassArm: (and to anyone) : Besides the "Primary sources problem" mentioned at the top of the article, I believe we have here 2 others problems that makes this article completely anti-encyclopaedic : WP:QUOTEFARM and WP:LONGQUOTE. The long and too numerous quotes of this article need to be suppressed and rewritten with personal words, in a concise way. Moreover some notes are excessively long, they need to be strongly shorten. ---Telikalive (talk) 13:39, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Citing people believing in "perseverance of the saints" is not relevant[edit]

To editor ClassArm: (and to anyone): People who believe in perseverance of the saints doctrine, yet believe that some Christians can commit apostasy. Those are the non-elect Christians. Due to this specific and exclusive definition of who is a "true" Christian, it comes that no "true" Christian can commit apostasy (see. Eternal security) Then, in the chapter Theologians who affirmed the possibility of apostasy citing theologians who held such doctrine like Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, as examples of people believing in apostasy is not relevant in this article. Even Calvin said that Christians can commit apostasy, but those were not really converted. Then, if we want to cite Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, but not Calvin, we need to give a clear and undisputed difference between their understanding of the "perseverance of the Saints" and the one of Calvin, otherwise we have to remove them.---Telikalive (talk) 21:00, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done---Telikalive (talk) 14:39, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apocrypha[edit]

Interesting choice: using apocrypha to define Apostasy. I would estimate scripture to apocrypha ratio in this wiki article to be ~1:4. The Great Apostate Church is HERE NOW. We know that because of the ANTI biblical teaching that is preached in 99.9% of today's churches. Christ is returning "soon" (within next few decades, probably sooner imo). The only way Christ followers can prepare is to READ the Bible COVER to COVER repeatedly. Ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. Then OBEY God's commands. Don't attend an Apostate church, which is all of them. Drsuedvm (talk) 03:55, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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