Talk:Aragorn/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Age

Already in his eighties by the time of the events of The Lord of the Rings,

This isn't right, I don't think. I don't know if it says specifically how old he is in the books, but I pictured him in his 40s, maybe. In book 1 of LOTR it says he had "a shaggy head of dark hair flecked with gray." -- Merphant

Appendix B: 2931: Aragorn son of Arathorn II born on March 1st. The main events of LoTR start in 3018, making him 87. Considering this is a fantasy world, simple age says little about his physical appearence or fitness. (Besides, are we sure the years are the same length as ours? ;) --Brion 05:26 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

And while we're at it, surely a major subplot is something of an oxymoron? user:sjc

Aragorn is one of the watsits -- elf-type mojo thingy, Numenorians or something -- so lives longer than ordinary men -- Tarquin
Actually he could even choose when to die.--AN
Númenoreans have long lifespans (Elros reigned for over 400 years, I believe) but they are indeed mortal. That's the whole thing about Númenoreans: the Elves chose to be immortal and the Númenoreans chose to be mortal. --General Wesc.

Elros, who was given kingship over the group of men that were given Numenor as a gift for their service in the fight against Morgoth, was given a choice to be elven or human, as was his brother Elrond. Elros chose humanity, while Elrond chose to be an elf. Despite his choice, Elros was granted a very long lifespan, and his people were also granted very long lives for men. Particularly the descendants of Elros had long lives, as the blood of Melian the Maia (one of the spirits that existed before the making of the world, akin to Gandalf and Sauron) flows in their veins. The conflict that led to the downfall of Numenor arose because of their decreasing lifespans and the eventual onset of age. The union of Aragorn and Arwen was a rekindling of this bloodline, as Arwen is one sixteenth maia, as well as a blend of all the ancient clans of the elves, possessing heritage from the Noldor, Vanyar, and Teleri. This is the third, and probably final such union explicitly depicted. Note however that the family of Dol Amroth is supposed to have "elven blood" hinting at other crosses.

yeah, the Númenoreans have a long lifespan coupled with the youthful appearance, but they do die (when they are very old) Selphie 10:31, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually (since someone brought it up), they didn't really choose to be mortal...it was more or less inevitable. (Only Elros had a real choice to not be mortal. Men were inevitably mortal, but their Elvish blood gave them certain advantages.) They could, however, definitely choose when they died for a while, so they lived much longer than we would expect, but this ability seems to have been lessened when they started not choosing to die, or putting it off as long as possible. --Aranel 19:21, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Elros and his descendants were the only Númenoreans descended from Elves and Men.
All other Númenoreans followed Elros to Númenor at the end of the first age.
And the Valar granted them a longer lifespan as a reward for thier struggles against
Morgoth during the first age. And also Elros and Elrond where the only ones given the chioce to be counted among Elves or Men.
No others were given this choice.
Every other Númenoreans where just descendants of humans so they couldn't be given this choice.
In the Lord of the Rings Two Towers ((extended edition)) Aragorn says hes is 87. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.167.208 (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Not a knight?

The category I added got removed, I wanna know why. How is Aragorn not a knight? I can tell you how he IS a knight.

In Lord Of The Rings: The Return Of The King, he used a horse, he wore armour, and fought with a sword. Knights wear armour and fight with a sword.

So how is he not a knight? TheBlazikenMaster 21:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Knights also fought primarily from horseback, which is how that class originated; and they were knighted that I recall. (If it does, it's in Appendix A, and I may be forgetting a crucial detail.) It nowhere says that Aragorn was knighted. Without that, a mounted fighting man is merely cavalry, especially when he doesn't own the horse. We also see him fighting from horseback only once, when he accompanied Theoden's charge from the Hornburg. He mainly fights as mounted infantry, which knights did not do. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
But I don't think all knights have horses though. For example, the knights in the online game RuneScape (I'm just giving example, I don't play this game anymore) don't have any horse at all. TheBlazikenMaster 23:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The manner in which a MMORPG redefines a word for its own purposes is not relevant to the question. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The question is rather more apposite than might at first appear. The name Elrohir is given by Tolkien as meaning "elf-knight" or "elf-horseman." Also Earnur had companions when he went to fight the Witchking who are described as "knights." The principal followers of Imrahil were the "Knights of Dol Amroth." Tolkien undoubtedly had a concept of "knighthood," implying both heavily armoured cavalry and "nobility," within his creation. The knights we hear of were the military companions of Numenorean kings and princes. We are left then to consider was Aragorn as a Numenorean of high lineage a prince before he became king? If Aragorn was a prince, then he and Habarad, and his other Dunadan followers (described as horsemen with spear and bow, helmet and shield - 'Paths of the Dead' perhaps), most probably could be described as knights as well as being "Rangers." They fulfilled both apparent requisites for the Tolkienesque title of knight , being both cavalrymen and the military companions of Dunadain royalty. Interestingly the single piece of plate armour described in the whole of LOTR (other than helmets) was the vambrace (forearm armour) used by Imrahil to check if Faramir was breathing.Urselius (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
one point to note is that Aragorn did own his own horse. Halbarad brought it to Rohan with him, and he rode it through the paths of the dead. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 10:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to add that no where in the books is he identified as a knight, therefore it is a moot point. To say his is one is nothing but opinion/drawing conclusions via original research. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 06:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Aragorn was never knighted, therefore he was not a knight. That's all that needs to be said really. BodvarBjarki (talk) 08:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
There was a concept of (military) knighthood in the early kingdoms of exile. Grade/rank of roquen, "knight" is mentioned in Disaster of the Gladden Fields. As a dúnadan of high(est possible) birth, he probably was a roquen (assuming the rank was preserved). Also, Merry was nominated "Knight of the Mark". Considering Aragorn's distinguished service in Rohan (as Thorongil), he could have been one as well. So I'd say it's very plausible that Aragorn was a knight of some (if not several) kind(s). But it's OR, too.

Aragorn-Arwen Relationship

In Aragorn's article, it says Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins 62-times removed. In Arwen's article, they're 63-times removed. Which is it? 207.31.229.4 13:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? Counting their degree of relation is a bit of trivia that I can't see how anyone might be interested in. I don't even see where that number might come from. We can only estimate how many generations of Aragorn's ancestors lived in Numenor after they split from the royal line, and have no information at all on intermarriages that might have affected the number. It's almost certainly OR and I'll probably cut it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
It comes from a fairly straightforward counting of generations. As part of the background material for the Middle-Earth stories, Tolkein provided complete family trees for Aragorn and Arwen, running back to the very first elf. As for intermarriages, unless Arwen had a previous marriage she's not talking about (that's what the whole "first cousins" bit means), there were none. --67.185.172.158 19:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
No he did not provide "complete family trees" that I've ever seen, or that anyone has cared to cite. And by "intermarriages" I meant Aragorn's line, about which we have absolutely no detailed information. And why should there be? As builders of fictional universes go, Tolkien was among the more completist, but even he would be hard put to it to concoct a complete 62-generation genealogy, or even to see the utility for one. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
You're right, JRR Tolkien didn't complete a 62-generation genealogy, but his son Christopher Tolkien did. If I remember right it is in one of the history of middle earth books. I'd double-check, but i don't own the books. You can always search for it online too, but it's hard to tell if the site is reliable. SwimChic77 22:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I do, and you don't recall correctly. CJRT invented nothing for the HoME books, and the line is sketched nowhere outside of fanfic. I see it bruited about that Amandil, Elendil's father, was the 18th Lord of Andunie, but if that's from any of the books I don't remember it. That would indeed make 63 generations, but back to the basic point: who cares? This is not a meaningful degree of kinship. I don't even know you, but I'd lay even money that you and I are related more closely than that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
The figure of 63 seems to be based on something like the argument laid out here. Later in that thread, we are reminded that this relies on an assumption: "it doesn't say that the lordship passed always directly from parent to child". Carcharoth 16:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a strange question. I have not seen it explained in any article and a clarification may be necessary to be included somewhere for fools like me. Maybe one of you guys will help me clear this up. Arwen was actually immortal and somehow she was able to choose to die. That is not the issue I want to stress. What I'm thinking is that being an elf (or half-elf somehow, for those who just thought of correcting me) she doesn't have the Gift of Men (I think). Elves that were slain, had died by ill-chance, or by the wearing from the passing of the centuries, still remain bound to the World and so their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos. Arwen was not slain and did not die from ill-chance, but 'chose' to die. Where would her spirit be going? Men on the other hand, no matter how they die, leave the Circles of the World into a non-physical place unknown even to the Valar. This means that Arwen chose a mortal life to be with Aragorn and not live "forever" without him, but when they died, instead of staying together somehow, it seems to me they don't even go to the same place! Arwen's spirit would still be bound to the World and stay hanging around while Aragorn would not even be in the same dimension. Unless it is somehow different when she actually 'chose' to die. I wonder if the same thing happened, or what actually happened, to Beren and Luthien. RayLast (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Arwen's Grandfather Eärendil was a man but her grandmother Elwing was an elf. Eärendil used the light of the silmaril to break the ban of the Valar and enter Valinor. He did this to appeal for help in the war against Morgoth. They where both given the choice of which race to join and chose to be Elves. This choice was granted to their decendents as well, Elrond became an Elf whilst Elros (Aragorns anscester by about 80 generations) became a man and first King of Numenor. Arwen therefore had the choice to become mortal should she wish and when she died her spirit would go to wherever men's spirits go, and thus she would not join her father in the Halls of Mandos. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 08:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Would that be "Elrond half-Elven"? Have you thought this through? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.176.237 (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

He's known as Elrond Half-Elven but that is not entirely accurate, he's part Maia (via his Great-Great Grandmother Melian), His Great Grandfather is a Man (Beren) and his father is a Man (Eärendil). Carl Sixsmith (talk) 20:00, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Tolkien clearly states in ROTK, when Elrond and Arwen part, that the parting would last forever. Arwen is, in effect, a mortal woman at that point, and in death will join Aragorn. Again, in the appendices, Aragorn speaks of the afterlife and alludes to the fact that he will be reunited with Arwen after her own death "beyond the circles of the world." Tolkien also wrote in the Silmarillion that Luthien joined Beren "beyond the circles of the world" after their final death, and--at that time, the First Age--was the only one of the First Born (Elves) to truly leave the world forever. On the other hand, Tuor and Idril set sail to Valinor, and the Valar made an exception for him to be "counted among the First Born." So Tuor is actually alive, never having died, in Valinor with Idril and the rest of the Elves who lived there or returned from Exile.

Those are the "three unions" of Elves and Men; although Tolkien made references to "Elven blood" among some other lines of Men, especially in relation to Imrahil and the House of Dol Amroth, which aren't really consistent with other references. 24.250.114.65 (talk) 21:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)Vainamoinen

Slight pedantic point, but they where not separated forever, but until the end of the world/time when Eru will reveal his plan for elves and men. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 11:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Race

The article has been edited to say Aragorn was Numenorian, this is not the case though is it? It would be like saying my race was Roman or something, he was only distantly related to the Numenorians. 77.96.187.68 (talk) 09:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Aragorn is of Gondor, who are all of direct Numenorian descent. The Gondorians took great pride in being descended from the Numenorians, and their entire culture reflected Numenorian culture. Also, Numenorians weren't just an ethnicity, they were almost something other than human, sort of superhuman. They had attributes that trumped normal humans, such as long life, which Aragorn and many Gondorians had. No, I'd say that Numenorian is a perfect description of Aragorn's race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.87.74.15 (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

To be exact, Aragorn is descended from the royal branch of Arnor, not Gondor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.92.128.28 (talk) 07:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Aragorns claim to the Gondorian throne is based on the fact that Isuldur did not relinquish the position of High King over both Gondor and Arnor, but you are correct he wasn't actually from the line of kings in Gondor.Carl Sixsmith (talk) 13:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Arvedui's wife was a Gondorian princess, so Aragorn had some Gondorian ancestry.Urselius (talk) 10:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Aragorn was of course Numenorian if his own words are reliable, we have "Nay, lady, I am the last of the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days" in THE TALE OF ARAGORN AND ARWEN:)SUM EGO (talk) 06:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Aragorn is a direct descendant of Isildur, son of Elendil. Elendil in turn was a Numenorean. This Numenorean heritage is also reflected by Aragorn's extremely long lifespan compared to "normal" Men of Middle-earth. De728631 (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Fictional?

Hello! What evidence do we have that Aragorn is a fictional character? Removed it until someone can verify his fictionness. (Jyrka 18:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC))

He is located in a novel. That makes him fictional, duh! TheBlazikenMaster 16:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
True. But Jesus Christ, Moses and Abraham of the Judeo-christian religions are also fictional characters. and still people believe these characters are/were real. Optrirominiluikus (talk) 21:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, I believe that fictional characters are real, just in another reality, but how are religious characters relevant to this discussion? Please explain. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 13:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

While the first comment here is a joke, the second is false. Regardless of whether you are Christian and/or believe that Jesus Christ was a manifestation of God, there are several contemporary references to Jesus Christ as a political/religious figure in Judea, and who founded a spreading religious movement, in Greek and Roman historical records-- apart from Biblical references. There is a very strong likelihood that Jesus Christ was indeed a "real" person in Judea, and who was executed during the Governorship of Pontius Pilate in Judea during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. The ubiquity of references to Moses and Abraham in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic literature and tradition also strongly suggests that these were historical figures as well; again, regardless of whether you believe the Toranic/Biblical stories about their actions and relationship to a God. 24.250.114.65 (talk) 20:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)TexxasFinn

Joke or not, all of you had much more trouble answering than should be necesary. It specifically states at the begining of the book that all characters in it are fictional. --216.81.15.206 (talk) 08:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

That depends what version of the book you have. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 10:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Man vs Dúnedain

Dúnedain doesn't not belong in race, Aragorn is a Man the Dúnedain are a branch of men, but still fall under the race of Men. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, that is why I listed the one in parentheses. While the Dúnedain are a branch of men, they do differ significantly enough that it is worth noting.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 17:41, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Not in the infobox, that's race only. We don't put Fallowhide/Stoor in hobbit articles or Sindarin in the Elvish articles GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 19:04, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

"Oath of Elendil"

user:Pritivarma1985 has edited the following passage in the lead:

he was crowned King Elessar Telcontar of Gondor

by adding the phrase:

and takes the oath of Elendil

Aragorn repeats Elendil's words, but there is no implication in the text that it was an oath (as opposed to, say, a prophecy), and the passage as it stands conveys the implication that the oath was expected of the King on taking the throne (for which there is no warrant in the text). So I have again removed this phrase. -- Elphion (talk) 03:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

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Meaning of names

I note the reference to the English word 'Strider' being apparently derived from the Dutch 'Strijder'. Can we get a reference for this, since it's not intuitively obvious - Old English (strídan?) seems a more obvious source than modern Dutch. More importantly, is it really relevant to give the current Dutch translation (fighter, warrior etc)? Since Aragorn's nickname only changed from Trotter to Strider fairly late on in the writing process, and since he's introduced as Strider with words to the effect of "goes around at a great pace on those long legs of his", I'd have thought the obvious interpretation was that Strider was intended to refer to his walking abilities rather than his fighting ones. Either way, a proper reference, rather than a dictionary translation of the claimed Dutch equivalent, would be better. 4u1e (talk) 08:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Literary Criticism

I've noticed of the Tolkien articles generally on Wikipedia, that they treat the material as if it were history. Even in the section dealing with the composition history, one gets the impression that Tolkien was just channeling a secret history Joseph Smith style.

One may suppose that this approach is taken to suppress any attempt at literary criticism. Why is there no discussion of the style and themes of Tolkien, of his relationship to source material, or to other literature? The approach seems fannish rather than scholarly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malkhos (talk • contribs) 22:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

One would suppose incorrectly: there's no attempt here to suppress literary criticism. But (a) such material generally attaches to the works, not the characters (see, e.g., J. R. R. Tolkien's influences); and (b) many editors aren't particularly interested in (or knowledgeable about) such matters, so don't add that kind of material. Feel free to jump in. -- Elphion (talk) 00:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Malkhos, Tolkien explicitly played with the theme of "channeling a secret history" - or, rather, translating historical sources of a mythical past himself. "The Lord of the Rings" supposedly is nothing but the translation of chapters in the "Red Book of Westmarch". --95.90.117.69 (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
I would say rather "presented as a translation". It's a literary device. But it doesn't speak to the absence of literary criticism in many of the articles. -- Elphion (talk) 03:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Realise this is an old conversation, but just wanted to point out for anyone interested in doing the work, that there is plenty of literary criticism of Tolkien around, see Saruman#References or The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Further_reading for a very incomplete list, for example. 4u1e (talk) 09:01, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

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no Topic profile pic

I notice there are pictures if you scroll downward, just curious as to why there isn't a profile picture for this character.EliteArcher88 (talk) 02:18, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. There is no free image of Aragorn as a Tolkien character. What we have are non-free images of Aragorn in film (e.g. Peter Jackson) adaptations. Those may only be used next to the text that describes those film adaptations, to clarify that precise bit of text: otherwise, it'd be a breach of copyright. It's also against Middle-earth project policy to use film, play, or musical images, even if free, in place of direct representations in the infobox. So there we have it. Until the Tolkien estate commissions and releases a painting of the character... Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:11, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

"Loeg Ningloron" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Elendur son of Isildur" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Círyon" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Why he holds off from claiming kingship

It would be useful to go into the detail of why Aragorn hestitates to claim the kingship from the Steward. It is not mentioned nor the timing of his emergence as heir. 31.49.217.189 (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

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