Talk:Aristo of Pella

Old 1911 content

The original article was based on the 1911, but evidently out of date. Have temporarily blanked it within article text, to come back and merge what is still the case. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Aristo of Pella, Jordan (Gr. Αρίστων) (mid 2nd century) was a hellenized Jewish Christian writer (see Hellenistic Judaism), who like Hegesippus represents a school of thought more liberal than that of the Pharisaic and Essene Ebionites.

Aristo is cited by Eusebius ref Ecclesiastical History iv.6.3 ref ref Emil Schürer (1885) The history of the Jewish people in the age of Jesus Christ (175 B.C.-A.D. 135) T&T Clark Ltd, 1973, G. Britain, vol.1, pp. 37,38. ref for a decree of Hadrian respecting the Jews, but he is best known as the writer of a Dialogue between an Alexandrian Jew named Papiscus, and Jason (who represents the author) on the witness of prophecy to Jesus Christ, which was approvingly defended by Origen against the reproaches of Celsus (Contra Celsum, iv.52). His writings were perhaps used by Justin Martyr in his own Dialogue with Trypho, and probably also by Tertullian and Cyprian; only quotations have survived of his writings. Robert M. Grant, Second-Century Christianity, A Collection of Fragments (SPCK, 1946).

The first line strike-throughs appear to be comments not on the Eusebius fragment but related to Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus, and if reflected in moderns sources, probably could go there.In ictu oculi (talk) 23:02, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of the content merge. I have no problem upgrading this to Start class, as someone is finally paying attention to the article, so I will be bold and do so. Ignocrates (talk) 03:35, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Was Aristo a Greek or a Jewish Christian?

The lead mentions that Aristo was a Greek Christian Chronicler, which made me wonder about the evidence that he was a Greek. I found the following excerpt in Oskar Skarsaune (2007). Jewish Christian Sources Used by Justin Martyr and Some Other Greek and Latin Fathers. in Jewish Believers in Jesus, Oskar Skarsune and Redar Hvalvik eds. pp. 403–408. ISBN 9781565637634. {{cite book}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help):

p.403, "In the Dialogue between Jason and Papiscus, written ca. 140 C.E. by the Jewish believer Aristo of Pella, the Hebrew text of Gen 1:1 was read like this according to Jerome: In Filio fecit Deus caelum et terram ('God made heaven and earth through the Son'). This is clearly based on the same identification of reshit in Gen 1:1 with the Wisdom of Prov 8:22 as in the Jewish texts surveyed above, only here the Wisdom of Prov 8:22 is identified with God's Son (Jesus the Messiah), not God's daughter Torah, as in the rabbinic texts.

There follows an analysis of Jewish gezera shawa exegesis (pp. 403-408) by which Skarsaune concludes that Aristo must have been a Jewish Christian and that this exegesis was later rejected by the Latin Fathers. Great stuff. Ignocrates (talk) 04:34, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I suppose there's no direct evidence in Eusebius that Aristo was either Greek or Christian. The assumption should be sourced or removed.

Surprising that Skarsaune didn't realise that the attribution of Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus to Aristo of Pella is based on one 7th C. comment. But there's no reason why that comment p.403 couldn't go in the relevant article there. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Since the Ante-Nicene Fathers volume 8 mentions matter-of-factually that Aristo was a Jewish Christian, I take this to be non-controversial. Therefore, I added it to the article as a possible identification and cited Skarsaune's assertion above as a reference. Ignocrates (talk) 01:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed the date of Aristo's lifespan to c.100-160 CE per Eisenman in Robert Eisenman (2006). The New Testament Code. Watkins Publishing. pp. 513–514. ISBN 9781842931868.. Ignocrates (talk) 00:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Flight to Pella

Aristo is best known for his account, possibly legendary, of the flight of the Jerusalem Church to Pella following the death of James the Just and prior to the outbreak of the First Jewish War (c.62-66). The article needs a subsection explaining this. Eisenman mentions that Aristo may have been associated (somehow) with the return of a group of Christians to Jerusalem from Pella following the Second Jewish War (p.514). This dovetails nicely with Skarsaune's speculation that the Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus was written by Aristo shortly after the war, probably in Palestine, as a Christian apologetic to appeal to Jews still living in the region to accept Jesus as the Messiah in the aftermath of the defeat of Bar Kochba (still looking for the specific citation). Ignocrates (talk) 01:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, the dating is supported by other than Eisenman? The trouble is with Eisenman is that he isn't a credible WP:RS.

As regards Skarsaune's comments on D of J and P, Yes, fine for that article, but in this article there seems to be a basic problem, noted above - what evidence does Skarsaune produce that Aristo is the author of Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus? Does Skarsaune comment on authorship? Is Skarsaune aware that the 7th C attribution to Aristo is late and unsupported?

Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, In ictu oculi. I'm looking for more backup for the date range. I realize Eisenman's work on James is disputed (particularly by some editors on this encyclopedia) but his work on the DSS is highly credible. Anyway, that's an argument for another day. Regarding Skarsaune, he devotes an entire section of his book to the subject of Aristo as the author of Dialogue of Jason and Papiscus. Please read it before you reject that assertion out of hand (see particularly pp.398-408 and 585-591). It's also stated about Aristo in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Ignocrates (talk) 01:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Yes please, the date can stand for now, but it'd be worth checking.

Re authorship of D of J and P, I've added Vermes. I'm not rejecting Skarsaune out of hand, since I don't know what Skarsaune says. Does Skarsaune discuss Maximus the Confessor and the credibility of Maximus as a 7thC source? Philip Schaff (1819-1893) doesn't discuss the credibility of Maximus against Celsus, Origen, Jerome and the Latin translator. The 1911 Jewish Ency will just be quoting Schaff. Also what does Skarsaune say about the earlier (than Maximus) attribution to St. Luke? Just a question. What page is the authorship of D of J and P discussed? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see Maximus mentioned in the index, but I will reread everything tonight when I have more time (see particularly pp. 398-408 and 585-591). I will report back if I find anything significant I may have missed. Cheers. Ignocrates (talk) 01:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It would be surprising if he missed it, I find it stranger still that there is so little trace of the earlier attribution to Luke in 19th C sources - you'd have thought that would have equal or greater traction. Incidentally, I have just done a bio stub on Oskar Skarsaune. Rather than translate from Norwegian (which would have been simpler) I have picked what was available first from English sources. I did pull birthplace Trondheim from the no. article, but wonder if it isn't a misreading of the previous entry in the Norwegian Yearbook entry. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Translate from Norwegian? Your facility with languages never ceases to amaze me! Skaraune's PhD. dissertation on Justin Martyr was in Norwegian, later translated into English with some supplementary additions in smaller font. See, Skarsaune, Oskar (1987). The Proof From Prophecy: A Study in Justin Martyr's Proof Text Tradition. Brill. ISBN 90 04 07468 6.. Skarsaune gives a brilliant analysis of the internal structure of the sources Justin used to write the Dialogue with Trypho in this book. Ignocrates (talk) 02:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Well it's passive knowledge. I found a source for place of birth. Celsus Africanus identifies Jason himself as Jewish Christian - hardly surprising if it is c.150. I've added that to the Dialogue article. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ardasches

The timeline for Ardasches doesn't make sense. The text of Moses of Chorene says that Ardasches had been sent by Hadrian to Persia, so this had to occur during Hadrian's reign (117-138). Therefore, this Ardasches is a vassal of Hadrian and can't be Artaxias I. Ignocrates (talk) 15:34, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

The most likely explanation is that Ardasches is the Armenian transliteration of the generic Parthian name for ruler Arsaces. The best fit is Parthamaspates who was installed as a vassal king of Parthia by Trajan and deposed by the Parthians in 117. He was then installed as the vassal ruler of Osroene by Hadrian from 118-123. Edessa is the capital city of Osroene, which later became the Christian kingdom of Abgar IX of Osroene ca. 177. This is all a guess of course, but it's at least plausible. Ignocrates (talk) 16:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Seems possible. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:36, 15 March 2012 (UTC)