Talk:Atlas Terrier

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This article is factually wrong.

The Atlas Terrier is not an old breed, it's a designer breed created by Lauren Wolfe of Long Island, beginning in 1990.

http://www.geocities.com/c_leed/new/atlas.html

--jdege (talk) 14:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I suppose 17 is quite old in dog years. ;-) Seriously though, if you think the article is substantially untrue, put the Hoax tag on it. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Done --jdege (talk) 15:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't look like a hoax article to me -- a google search turned up relevant independent discussions, which is to say, it's not just something that an editor made up. That said, there are still some serious problems with this article:

1. Is this a notable breed?
2. The tone of the article is not encyclopedic: It's good that it presents the controversies related to the breed, but it shouldn't take a side in the controversies.
3. There are no references: What can be asserted about the breed and backed up with neutral, reliable sources?

--Shunpiker (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

"Hoax" probably isn't the right word. But there's never been any controversy about the origination of the Atlas breed. --jdege (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, the original author is AutumnBriar, which looks suspiciously like AutumnBriar Farms - Lauren Wolfe's kennel.

I smell a conflict of interest.

And as for Atlas Terriers: [Dubious Terrier Breeds] "Atlas Terrier: This is nothing more than a Jack Russell terrier with a merle gene -- a gene most Jack Russell breeders breed away from since it is so often associated with deafness." --jdege (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there may be a conflict-of-interest, but it looks like Autumnbriar just started editing, so s/he may not be aware of Wikipedia's policies regarding this. -- Shunpiker (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Clean up v. deletion

I am O.K with clean-up of this article, instead of deletion. However, it has many faults that need fixing quickly. Bearian (talk) 01:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that unless this article gets references, especially to establish notability, it should be deleted. I think that 5 days is plenty of time to wait for this to happen, so I would be happy with a prod. -- Shunpiker (talk) 02:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Not sure I'm doing this right, CLeed's article is not quite right, while I am resposible for naming this type of terrier, I am not to originator of it, just the name. Solid colored Jacks have existed as just a working strain, never named.... in order to prevent the type of terrier dying in 1999 several breeders void to name this strain. I can provide several photo's and articles all over 50+ years old about working colored terriers.

I am not a writer and never claimed to be, but do feel the Atlas deserves recognition. PS, I'm an having trouble figuring out how to post.

Lauren Wolfe, Aka Autumnbriar.

There were always colored terriers, and there were always colored working terriers - ref. the Border Terriers and the myriad Fell Terriers - the Patterdale et al. And the genetic diversity among Jacks has always been great enough that they often threw off dogs with less than 51% white.

But was the Atlas an attempt to preserve these dogs? Or an an attempt to reconstruct them? Did you bring over your foundation stock from an existing strain in the hunt kennels of the UK, the way the JRTCA breeders did, or did you create the breed by crossing various other terrier breeds until you had the look you wanted?

How many of the founding dogs actually had work experience? How many of them did you have successful hunts with?

There's an article in Wikipedia for the Plummer Terrier, I see no reason why there shoud not be an article for the Atlas Terrier. But it should contain an honest account of the origination of the breed, citing sources other than your own personal assertions. I know it seems odd, but you'd be better served to post an account of the breed's history somewhere else, and let someone else abridge it and cite it here, than to write it here, yourself.

--jdege (talk) 13:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Fells Patterdales and Atlas

Neither Fells or Patterdales will ever produce white bodied dogs, because their strains didn't develope from white bodied dogs, Atlas and JRTs are one and the same.

Fells and Patterdales are strains of their own, I am talking about the colored terriers USED in creating the jack russell and what is happening to them. People are claiming they don't exsist, people like yourself who claim they are Lakelands or Patterdales or Fells, and they are NOT. The breeders of shorties have also named their colored terriers as Hunt terrier, and true to their breeding they produce white bodied offspring, unlike the Fells and Patterdales where a white bodied dog must be crossed is to produce a white bodied dog, it normally takes at least 2 generations to do.

I will not go into another debate with you about who does what or did what, I have imported over 23 dogs in 17 years, many from well respected working terriermen. Also, Your claim that a Jagd is just another type of fell terrier is FALSE as you put in your WORKING TERRIER article here on wikipedia.

Please tell me where I have pointed the Atlas to myself or my website? Unlike yourself, most to all of your references on the articles you wrote point to your personal websites and articles. You seem to think what you write is fact, and it is not. Colored and white working type terriers are hand in hand in any working kennel.

What I would like to see for these solid colored dogs is to be what Lurchers are to sighthounds. Fell Terrier people don't want them because they are not true fells, and the Patterdale people are still fighting over where or not registering them is a good thing, since white puppies have turned up in a few breeding here in the states, but they never turned up in hard core UK supportrs. I spoke with Brian Nuttal and NEVER in his 50+ years of breeding has he ever produced a white bodied dog and if he did he would know that somebody lied about the pedigree.

What I would ask is for you to help me write this article properly, I can give you books and references, to the Parson's owning and crossing of white and colored dogs but I don't know how to post them.

(Autumnbriar (talk) 21:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC))Autumnbriar

I am not Patrick Burns, and whatever long-running argument you may have been having with him, I have had nothing to do with it.

If you want my opinion, Jacks are a strain, not a breed. They've always thrown off solid color dogs, and always will, if we manage to maintain the genetic diversity that has kept them healthy.

Yes, the JRT standard says >51% white, but the JRTC events I attend have colored terrier events, in which I've seen Borders, Patterdales, and mostly-solid-colored offspring of pure-bred [sic] JRTs compete.

OTOH, I have to admit I have my doubts about your claims of seeking to improve the genetics of your dogs, when you're breeding merles. That is a gene that really deserves to die out.

But this is Wikipedia, not a debate forum on dog genetics. You have references to the early working terriermen breeding colored Jacks? Cite them. You have imported working colored Jacks? Say so.

We'll help to fix the style, the grammar, the formatting.

--jdege (talk) 22:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like there may be a conflict-of-interest here involving a number of parties, not just Autumnbriar. Thanks, Autumnbriar, for disclosing your interest; anybody else with a vested interest in these controversies should be as forthcoming.

I think the best way forward would be to edit Atlas Terrier, and any other articles involved in this controversy, down to whatever facts can be substantiated by reliable sources. If you have verifiable sources that describe the history or character of the Atlas Terrier, and which could be used to establish its notability as a breed, please feel free to add them in whatever form you can. The standard wikipedia notations for citing sources take a little while to get to know, and other editors will be able to help with the form if you can provide the content. Once it's clear what can be be verifiably asserted about Atlas Terriers, it will be easier to make the tone of the article more neutral. -- Shunpiker (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no interest in the issue other than owning a JRTCA-recorded JRT. I don't breed them, I don't sell them, I have no financial interest in them. I've simply owned one, and read what I could about them. I raised the issue because what AutumnBriar had written conflicted with what I had read from other sources.

I think you're right - we need to focus on what we can verify. --jdege (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Patterdales/Fells

I question the "primary difference" with respect to Patterdales. Yes, they were bred from the Lakeland and Fell terriers, but non-terrier people won't know what that means.

Patterdales look just like JRTs, except for their color. But they have very different working styles. The Fell terriers were bred in the north, where the ground was too rocky to dig to a fox, and where fox hunting was done on foot, primarily for vermin control. The JRT was bred in the south, where the ground was easily dug, and fox hunting was primarily a form of mounted recreation.

So the Fell terriers - including the Patterdales - were bred hard, to close with the fox and kill it. JRTs were bred to a very careful balance between hard and soft, to keep at the fox, harrying it until it bolted, or barking at it until it could be dug to.

You can see the difference in working style, sometimes, in play above ground. JRTs will make repeated short nipping rushes, backing off and coming in again, where Patterdales will muscle in close.

This is the essential difference between JRTs and other working terriers. And it has nothing to do with looks.

I don't know Atlas terriers - whether they preserve the working characteristics of their ancestors, or whether they are intended to. But I do know that there is a lot that is suggested by the "primary difference" comment that wouldn't be clear to the ordinary reader.

--jdege (talk) 13:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

On the Terrier page someone (not me) has divided terriers into sub-groups, including

"Hunting or working terriers - Still used to find, track, or trail quarry, especially underground, and sometimes to bolt the quarry. These dogs are usually of mixed breeding or of breeds not recognized as pure breeds. These include

• Fell terriers - breeds developed in northern England to assist in the killing of foxes and
• Hunt terriers - breeds developed in southern England to locate and kill or bolt foxes during a traditional mounted fox hunt."

I assume that if this one is not the Fell type it is the other type, which is white except when it isn't...

This would be clearer:

Other working breeds were developed from the Fell Terrier type; the Fell types did not come from white-bodied Fox Terrier type dogs. Instead they developed in the hill region of northern England and were usually rough coated and dark in colour. The temperament and working style of the Fell types is also different from that of the descendants of the white-bodied hunt terriers of southern England.

but it still needs citations.

Hafwyn (talk) 02:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)