Talk:Barrett's Privateers

"Main truck..."

Is the Main Truck the base of one of the 4# guns, as the author asserts, or the piece of the rigging known as the main trunk. Assuming a ship-rigged main mast (a not un-reasonable assumption, since doing otherwise assumes a fairly complex and exotic rig, for the time period, which is at odds with the rest of the description of an old and mangled vessel), the main truck would have been the device which connected the main-top mast to main mast. If the rigging was struck, then the main truck could crash down crushing the captain's legs. - Dastal 21:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how to comment on the above post but it's main "truck". It refers, though, to a piece, at the top of a mast; in this case, the main mast. Not, though, "the device which connected the main-top mast to main mast". It's, actually, for reeving halyards through and flags and/or pennants are, typically, attached to it.

While four pounders would be "truck" mounted, no part of the mount would be referred to as "main". Also, use of "the" indicates there was one, while the "four pounders" are plural. 99.244.246.219 04:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I wish I was in Sherbrooke now

I was told we'd sail the sea for American gold, we'd fire no guns, shed no teeaarrssss, now I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier, the laaast of Barrett's Privateeeeeeeeers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.192.34.220 (talk) 22:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions a potential error in accounts since Sherbrooke, Nova Scotia was not founded until 1815. Might the song be referring to Sherbrooke, Quebec which, according to [Wiki]Sherbrooke, was settled in 1793?Keystone63 (talk) 13:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Probably not, given the content of the song and the songwriter's background. —Entropy (T/C) 19:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Is this reference to Sherbrooke talking about New Ross, NS? New Ross, Nova Scotia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.187.101 (talk) 10:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

23rd year

I see that another anon has re-introduced a fencepost error I fixed earlier. The song lyrics say "Here I lay in me 23rd year." It's easy to misinterpret that as his age being 23, but it really means that the speaker is currently 22 years of age, not 23. He will turn 23 at the end of his 23rd year, just as a baby in his first year will turn one at the end of the year and is not one year of age yet. I've added an HTML comment in the hope that future editors won't repeat the mistake. 216.75.189.154 02:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I find your interpretation of a song lyric to be incredibly pedantic, especially since (if I had to guess) Rogers probably meant he was 23 and wasn't thinking about fencepost errors. As compromise, I've changed the article so that the narrator is described, just as in the original lyric, as being in his twenty-third year. -- Darthsco (talk) 07:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Some idiot reverted your change almost immediately. I've added an HTML comment; I don't object to minor rewording of the sentence if it remains correct, but I think the comment has to stay because otherwise we'll just see misguided do-gooders changing it to "23 years of age" forever. Of course, we probably will anyway. 184.94.84.164 (talk) 12:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I blame Bill Gates, for this. He's made it possible for any moron, who can push an "on" button, to use a computer and access the 'net. 8-( 99.244.246.219 04:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"cracked" four pounders?

Is it possible that Rogers does mean the guns have cracks? The chorus repeats "goddamn them all .... we'd fire no guns, shed no tears". It's possible to interpret that to mean that the crew had intended to use the guns as a threat alone to subdue a ship, and not actually have to fight. That's why the chorus curses "them all" ... for making that unwanted situation a reality. Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Worich24 (talk • contribs) 07:09, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Does Fogarty's Cove have an actual lyric sheet that shows this spelled as "cracked," or does Roger's performance definitely sound like there's an "-ed" ending?

I only know this song from a local group's arrangement, not Rogers' original, but I thought I've always heard the lyric as "crack four-pounders," as in first-rate, lethal. For some modern examples of the idiom with respect to guns, search for "crack" at http://www.noquartergiven.net/clash.htm. The usage dates back to the song's settings and given how well Rogers' uses authentic language, it strikes me as more than likely.

Granted, good guns might be considered out of character for the rest of the Antelope's poor condition, but cannon with actual cracks in them would likely be especially dangerous and more likely to explode after the heat of repeated firing. There is mention at http://home.gci.net/~stall/Crew%20Weapons.htm of cracked cannon being rejected as sub-standard, although that page is about manufacturing and in an explicitly naval context, not about glory-seeking fishermen taking to sea with whatever armament they could scrounge. Nevertheless, it seems far more likely that guns with cracks would have been discarded and melted down for their valuable metal, not allowed to go to sea on a fool's errand in a "scummy" privateer.

Unless there's specific documentation of "cracked" being the intended usage, I'd suggest this be changed.

And I would oppose. Googling "barrett's privateers" "cracked four" -wikipedia yields almost 600 hits; "barrett's privateers" "crack four" -wikipedia yields none (allowing "wikipedia" gives 1 hit). Without a lyric sheet to confirm or deny, the only evidence available supports "cracked", which also fits in with the tenor of the song. While you may very well be correct in your surmising, that actually constitutes original research. And don't forget to sign your posts! --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 08:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

In the recording on Between the Breaks ... Live! (which is a capella except for some hand-clapping near the start, and generally quite clear), the -ed ending is not pronounced very strongly, but is definitely present, especially in "Our cracked four-pounders made an awful din." I see no reason to doubt the consensus interpretation, which is that it's really "cracked" four-pounders, as in small naval guns that cast four-pound balls and have literal cracks in them. Yes, firing such a weapon would be dangerous, borderline suicidal, but I think that's quite in keeping with the other things said about the Antelope and her crew and commander. 216.75.189.154 13:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

It is "crack"; no "ed". 99.244.246.219 04:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite confident our narrator is talking about "crack" four-pounders. As above poster has mentioned, a cracked gun would not only not work, it would likely kill its crew. Nobody wihout a death wish would fire a cracked cannon. The argument that a google search returns more hits for "cracked" simply means that most people have misinterpreted the lyric. In the recording I have of this song (frank emerson on "Safe in the Harbour") the word is clearly "crack". I've edited the article accordingly. Dmhaglund (talk) 00:31, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I have heard Stan Rogers perfom this song live on a number of occassions, and he actually says "cracked four pounders" every time, refering most likely to the state of the guns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.122.166.113 (talk) 03:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

No question, the guns are cracked. How and why would a tattered mess of a tub like The Antelope have "crack" guns? You tie a rope around the muzzle and hope to hell you never have to use them. I have Stan Rogers' "Songs from Fogarty's Cove Songbook" published in 1982 (before his death in '83), and the word is "cracked," as it is everywhere the lyrics are transcribed, the song is sung, and on Rogers' official website (http://stanrogers.net/the-music/song-archive/barretts-privateers/). There's no room for debate here whatsoever. 69.196.178.95 (talk) 17:13, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

From the internal clues given from the lyrics "cracked" four pounders make the most sense. In the chorus, the singer states "they'd fire no guns." Therefore, they would not be worried about an explosion, but it would appear that the cannons were more for inspiring fear than use. And again an internal clue is the "awful din" that firing the guns made, the sound of cracked cannons exploded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.45.212.86 (talk) 05:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The official lyrics make it clear it's "cracked", possibly cracked in proof, see this search.[1] Doug Weller talk 19:15, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

There's no such thing as 'crack' guns. There are 'crack' gun crews (but a group of freshly signed on fishermen certainly couldn't be considered as crack gun crews). Cracked guns were not uncommon, the best guns were cast from bronze (not brass as is often though), but good serviceable guns were cast from iron. Iron of the time had a habit of cracking under pressure/shock. GOOD captains would indeed have them scrapped and new guns bought to replace them, but it's fairly obvious that Barrett wasn't a 'good' captain! When guns crack, it is normally around the muzzle, so you could have a sizable chunk blown out of the muzzle, and still have the gun serviceable (but no one sensible would use it (lowly fishermen signed up for a long voyage certainly didn't have that option)). Also, cracks along the barrel aren't always apparent. Not withstanding 'closed' cracks, which are not easy to see (particularly if painted), you can also have them cracked underneath which is not visible without dismounting the gun in question. Most of these whilst not being visible will be readily apparent on the first firing by the sound they make, a cracked gun will sound 'dead'. 82.46.12.53 (talk) 15:06, 4 December 2021 (UTC)Snakebite

Serving "in" a ship

The statement 'Additionally, in common naval vernacular, one serves "in" a ship and not "on" one.' is confusing. The "additionally" suggests that this is an additional problem with these theories, which it isn't. Either the "additionally" should not be there or the "in" and the "on" are backwards in that sentence and the ambiguity is confusing.

Do you really say "serving in a ship"?

"Serving in a ship" is an "Americanism" and would not be used, in the context. Also, the ships, the author refers to, didn't exist, at the time, and it's unlikely our hero would want to be on board a ship, after his ordeal and having no legs. 99.244.246.219 04:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I've just read the article and don't see how to start a new comment but had to mention that the author's, apparently, hard of hearing. I laughed, when I saw "The Antelope is described in the song as a sloop". I assume he misheard: "The Antelope's loot was a sickening sight". 99.244.246.219 04:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Pretty sure you are actually the one who is mistaken. All lyrics I can find online say "the Antelope sloop was a sickening sight" and at that point in the narrative no loot has appeared

In America they may serve "in" a ship, but in Canada, we serve "on" a ship. I spent 20 years in the Canadian Navy and can attest to that.

Cover versions

This has been covered by quite a few performers since it was written. A list would be good. -- Derek Ross | Talk 00:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sherbrooke

There has been some discussion about how the Canadian Sherbrookes didn't exist at the time of the song. Could he be referring to one overseas? Scotland, perhaps?

No, he's referring to Sherbrooke, NS, named for Sir John Coape Sherbrooke who was posted to Canada in 1784; the year our young fisherman would be singing in. Although there was a settlement as early as 1655, it did not come to be called "Sherbrooke" until 1815. A small error, on Stan's part, but give the guy a break; he was a song writer, not a historian. 99.244.246.219 04:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"Debate"

I just removed the "Debate" section entirely. The supposed "debate" centers around slightly ambiguous terms at best and complete mis-information at worst.

As a Canadian writer describing a Canadian character, there seems little doubt that Rogers was referring to either Sherbrooke, Nova Scotia or Sherbrooke, Quebec. Unless anyone can come up with a statement from him clarifying which one he meant, it's all speculation. The fact that neither town existed in the period the song describes is irrelevant as it's a work of fiction. Given that Stan Rogers wrote the song in twenty minutes on a bar napkin (as described in Chris Gudgeon's biography of Rogers, An Unfinished Conversation: the Life and Music of Stan Rogers ISBN:0670851175), I think some minor historical inaccuracies are to be expected.

The main truck, however, is not the least bit ambiguous, and refers to the ball- disk- or bun-shaped piece of wood that is mounted on the end of the uppermost spar that makes up the mainmast of a traditionally rigged vessel (see "Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship and Ocean Carrier" by Harold A. Underhill ISBN:0851741738). Being disk-shaped, this truck surely shares etomological and perhaps even practical origins with the wheels of gun carriages, also called trucks, but the term "main truck" is a rigging reference. The removed section and related talk page entries showed much confusion over the proper terminology for traditional masting and rigging elements.

There is a discussion of the varying uses of the term Sloop on it's own article page.

Finally, amongst whom is this "debate" raging? Lacking citations, it's just original research. Pjbflynn (talk) 05:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

While I have no problem with your removal, I'm sure you're right, it might be a good idea to remove the referal to Sherbrooke, and the 'see below' part too. DannyBoy2k 22:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Good catch, thanks. Pjbflynn 06:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Category "fictional pirates"

Privateers were not legally pirates (unless they attacked ships of their own home country). AnonMoos (talk) 17:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Metre

A small topic for a musical discussion:

Is there really a change in metre between 4/4 and 5/4 or is it just a fermata on the 4?46.196.115.19 (talk) 06:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Good point. I could not find a reliable (non-self-referential) source for this assertion. I've tagged it "citation needed" for the meantime in hopes someone with musical expertise and a reliable source can cite it. Wilsonchas (talk) 00:09, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Some self-transcribed versions may denote the many 5-beat measures as Fermatae, but in Rogers' original recording, there is no flexibility (except in one refrain) to the extra time, as would be implied by a fermata; every instance of an extra beat is sung in strict time as one extra beat. Woodson (talk) 09:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I found printed sheet music here. The meter switches between 2/4 and 3/4, and if you count out the measures you'll see that 4/4 and 5/4 doesn't work unless you insert a 2/4 measure at the end, which doesn't seem sensible. I'm going to change the article to say 2/4 and 3/4 instead of 4/4 and 5/4. Also, I'm not sure whether switching meter like this is actually unusual for a sea shanty, so I'm going to remove that statement, although anyone who knows better than me should feel free to add it back.100.33.24.158 (talk) 15:32, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

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variant

I have often (though not recently) heard it with names changed: "I wish I was with [name forgotten] now" and "... on a Bristol pier, the last of Hawken's privateers." I always wondered whether that might be for reasons of copyright. —Tamfang (talk) 22:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps referring to John Hawkins (naval commander)?? —Tamfang (talk) 16:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Also "Spanish gold" vs "American gold". —Tamfang (talk) 16:26, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Historical authenticity section

Most of this content was added in 2005, with bits and pieces added since. The entire section appears to consist of original research on the parts of editors, providing their personal analyses of the historicity of the lyrics. The three sources in that section do not support analysis of the song, only of factual bits claimed by the editors. I have not found any reliable sources that provide analysis of the historical authenticity of the song's lyrics. Without those, I believe this section should be deleted. (And if any are found, the section should be rewritten to reflect that source or sources, replacing the WP:OR.) Schazjmd (talk) 19:30, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@Schazjmd: - Reluctantly agree. PhilKnight (talk) 22:12, 17 June 2023 (UTC)