Talk:Bayswater Subway

Railway line

The subway has a physical railway line running over the top of it, i.e. the Eastern Railway. The Midland line article is about one of the services that uses the line, as stated in its opening sentence, much like the AvonLink, Indian Pacific etc. Therefore it is correct to state that the physical railway line and not one of the services that uses the line as the line that it carries. Simeo25 (talk) 04:44, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. The bridge carries the physical railway track; the track carries one or more (trains that provide) services. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:00, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@Simeo25: Do you have a source that says the name of the physical track is the "Eastern Line" as of 2023? I notice that your edit removed a source which said the name of the physical track was the "Midland Line" and did not add a new source. Steelkamp (talk) 05:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

This conversation fails due to the lack of adequate WP:RS - many publications of the Western Australian Government Railways had specific usage of 'Eastern Railway' from Fremantle to Northam from the 1880s to the 1980s at least - the trick is to ascertain as to whether the usage still exists in more recent materials (or not) - so far the assertions are WP:OR - clarification would be very useful from readily accessible items such as annual reports - specially since the time of the separation out into the track remaining government owned, and contractors conducting service on the line in the larger network... I am sure that there must be a good reliable source that exists somewhere... JarrahTree 06:50, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I realise that "Eastern Railway" is a term that was formerly in use for the railway from Fremantle to Midland, but as far as I can see, this term is not in current use. The only source I could find that labels the railway lines is this, which uses "Midland Line", "Fremantle Line", etc. I can't find any modern day sources which use the term "Eastern Railway". See this google search which shows the term "Eastern Railway" is not mentioned at all on the Public Transport Authority website.

Frustratingly, I have never come across a source which shows when the term "Eastern Railway" went out of use, and it would be good to know when so it can be added to articles. But as of 2023, it would only serve to confuse people to say that the Bayswater Bridge carries the "Eastern Railway" rather than the "Midland Line". Steelkamp (talk) 08:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

"Eastern Railway" ... this term is not in current use — except apparently in the Wikipedia article Midland line, Perth, and probably others, which I'm sure someone will update. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:23, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

True. A good example of why we don't use Wikipedia articles as sources for other Wikipedia articles. Steelkamp (talk) 10:24, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

look very carefully around this place, the sheer number of articles that utilise eb as a reference - it is very embarrassing .... JarrahTree 11:05, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

What the hell - since when does a safety manual for the whole system - have anything to do with understanding the jurisdiction of how government acts/regulations have anything to do with the name of a physical structure as opposed to the operational functions? https://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Portals/15/AA_DOCUMENTS/About_us/Working%20with%20PTA/Safety%20resources/8800-400-001%20-%20Manual%20-%20Rail%20Access%20(RAM).pdf?ver=HeEjr5VhWQl0Cqch7aQ21A%3d%3d&timestamp=1680501564157 has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue in question and is a burden in the references - as if anyone can glean anything from a very well prepared safety management plan that is 180+ pages. If that is anything it is a total furphy. Apologies to steelkamp - a very well intentioned but totally wrong way to go. JarrahTree 01:10, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

180+ pages — It's a good thing that the citation template has a "pages" parameter.... pp. 93, 96. Page 93 - "MIDLAND LINE". Page 96 - "BAYSWATER STATION", "KING WILLIAM ST / COODE ST". (All caps copy/pasted from ref, not me shouting. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:58, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

That still does not address the technicality of the actual name of the line (as opposed to the service) as it had been designated 100 years + before - since when does a safety manual actually discern such niceties? Operational / legal explanations are not the usual item placed in a safety manual... Furphy, totally JarrahTree 03:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

It contains a map of the Transperth network labelling each line, and as far as I'm concerned, unless someone has a better source, it's the source we have to use. Steelkamp (talk) 04:05, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

If that is an attempt at some form of resolution, there is no need to put anything in at all about the older name - the editor who has started this has not returned, and the we have to use is a further furphy. No need to mention, unless the editor returns/provides a source, relevant to the current naming... JarrahTree 05:52, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

A citation for "carries King William Street / Coode Street beneath the Midland line" (street names and rail name) is a useful and appropriate thing to have. Do we have an alternative ref with that information? (I don't have the time and resources at the moment to check the other refs used in the article.) Mitch Ames (talk) 06:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Each physical railway line should only have one article. So either the line from Fremantle to Northam is one line (the Eastern Railway), or there are three lines; from Fremantle to Perth (Fremantle line), from Perth to Midland (Midland line), and from Midland to Northam (the Eastern Railway). As noted previously, the WAGR, newspaper articles on Trove from the time of its construction and published works, e.g. The Railway History of Midland Junction refer to the line from Fremantle to Northam as the Eastern Railway, it is only in more recent times that the lines of distinction have become blurred.

To further confuse, Arc Infrastructure appears to consider that the Eastern Goldfields Railway's western extremity not to be Northam as the article indicates it is, but that it extends through to Kwinana, along what Wikipedia has as the Kwinana freight railway. As the articles stand, the distinctions are less than clear and these articles all need some work. Simeo25 (talk) 01:48, 13 April 2023 (UTC)