Talk:Bella Hadid

Regarding the Religion and politics section.

@Hipal and Tobby72: There is a bit of a disagreement over including info about Gaza, Israel and the song Harbu Darbu. From my perspective, the song is notable enough to be mentioned as it has its own article, its lyrics mention Hadid, and we have reliable sourcing for both: The Independent, The Times. There is also the sentence about the humanitarian situation and the war, which also is reliably supported by sources for both August and October of last year: USA Today/AP, AP, Reuters, Al Jazerra, Vulture, The Guardian. Since there is only three of us involved, is there any way to word or format it that the three of us will all be satisfied with? --Super Goku V (talk) 03:04, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for starting a discussion.

I think the entire section needs to be reworked. It looks very fan/anti-fan pov.

This looks like a case of name-dropping a celeb/model (Hadid) in the context of the Israel-Hamas War. Hence my concern that it's WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWS. WP:RECENTISM too.

Which sources demonstrate this has any importance in Hadid's life from a historical perspective? Not The Independent. I don't have access to The Times. Not USA Today, AP, Reuters, Al Jazerra, nor Vulture. We might be able to do something with the context provided in the piece from The Guardian.

You didn't identify the same references as what were used in the article. Does that indicate you'd rather use the ones you mention? Rolling Stone, Times of Israel, and Business Insider are all publishers that I'd be wary of using for triple-contentious-topics content. --Hipal (talk) 03:42, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

If you think the entire section is a problem, then maybe it needs to be axed and rewritten. As far as I know, this is my first edits to this article. Regarding the next two paragraphs, NOTNEWS shouldn't apply because being mentioned in a song that is wishing that you would die is well outside of a routine situation. (As for the Who's who part of NOTNEWS, it is limited to a sentence in this article, so proportion is fine, which should cover the issue with UNDUE if I am understanding you properly.) I will say that you have a point regarding RECENTISM and that from a historical perspective nothing has changed in her life as far I as I am aware. Regarding the last, I did not write the original sentences nor the sources used. I am suggesting sources that are generally reliable to back up the claims and potentially have some of them be used in the article. (Just out of curiosity, do you believe that Mia Khalifa and Dua Lipa should be edited to remove their mentions of the song?) --Super Goku V (talk) 06:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC) (Amended on 12:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC))

Hadid has been a supporter of Palestine for many years and has been criticizing Israel's actions in Gaza for months, so this is not an isolated and insignificant event in her life. If Israel's number one song with 18 million views on Youtube is calling for her death, then it is definitely worth mentioning in her biographical article. I agree with Super Goku V's suggestion. The article could also be expanded to include her long-term support for Palestine. -- Tobby72 (talk) 08:07, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

As I said, "name-dropping". The band used the names to get attention, the press eats it up, but in the end it has no impact on Hadid's own life beyond influencing the amount and tone of the impulsive reactions (social media, soft news, etc) about her.

Hadid has been a supporter of Palestine for many years That's supported by The Guardian, and should be the focus of anything we include. The rest are just reactions to her and attempts to benefit from Hadid's high level of recognition and interest. --Hipal (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Post, October 30, 2023, Bella Hadid 'I receive hundreds of death threats' as Hamas war rages: "Hadid, who identifies as Palestinian and has been vocal about her support for the "Movement for the Liberation of Palestine," has frequently condemned Israel and actively participated in demonstrations against the country. ... She said that, "Every day, I receive hundreds of death threats, my phone number has been leaked, and my family feels unsafe." ... Hadid also extended her condolences to the Israeli families affected by the October 7 attack, saying that she grieved for the Israeli families grappling with the pain and consequences of the event. ... Continuing to criticize Israel, Hadid echoed the messages of the Palestine Liberation Movement, noting that it is crucial to understand the hardships faced by Palestinians, who often find themselves labeled as nothing but terrorists opposing peace." -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it should be used given the author is "Walla!" --Hipal (talk) 01:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Yep. If I understand SYNDICATED and other discussions correctly, the article isn't considered to be a Jerusalem Post article, but a Walla! article instead.

@Tobby72: That means that it doesn't necessarily have the same reliability as The Jerusalem Post does. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The Daily Beast, 28 October 2023, Bella Hadid Speaks Out on Israel-Hamas War After ‘Daily’ Death Threats: "On Instagram, the outspoken supermodel posted a written statement mourning the loss of Israeli and Palestinian lives over the past three weeks. In the same post, she shared that she’s been doxxed and has been sent “hundreds of death threats daily.” ... In the past, Bella has received backlash from Israel’s official accounts for attending a pro-Palestine rally.

The Business Standard, 26 October 2023, Gigi Hadid, Bella Hadid receive death threats for supporting Palestine : "Reports suggest that as a safety measure, the Hadids have had to change their phone numbers. Close sources to the family have also mentioned that their father Mohamed is contemplating involving the FBI to identify the individuals responsible for the death threats."

Hindustan Times, 27 October 2023, Bella Hadid breaks silence, posts long note in support of Palestine: ‘I've been sent hundreds of death threats daily': "Bella also mentioned how she, too, has been impacted by the crisis. “I've been sent hundreds of death threats daily, my phone number has been leaked, and my family has felt to be in danger. But I can not be silenced any longer. Fear is not an option."

Samaa TV, 18 October 2023, Hadid sisters receive death threats for their support of Palestine: "According to sources, the Hadid family has been compelled to take security measures, including changing their phone numbers, in response to the alarming number of death threats they have received."

Rolling Stone, 26 October 2023, Bella Hadid Says She’s Received ‘Hundreds of Death Threats’ Amid Israel-Hamas War: "Hadid, whose father Mohamed Hadid is a Palestinian immigrant and practicing Muslim, shared a post on her Instagram Thursday, where she also revealed that she’s been doxxed and has been sent “hundreds of death threats daily.” Hadid said she is currently in mourning with both the “mothers who have lost children” in Gaza, and also the “Israeli families that have been dealing with the pain and aftermath” of the Oct. 7 attack.

Dazed, 18 October 2023, Gigi and Bella Hadid face death threats for supporting Palestine: "In fact, Israel’s social media tactics – including twisting statements made by Gigi Hadid – has now been credited with influencing reported death threats against the entire Hadid family. ... According to TMZ, Gigi Hadid has received a wave of death threats (alongside Bella, Anwar, and their parents) since speaking out against the Israeli government’s violence in Gaza. These have reportedly come via email, social media, and their personal phones, with their numbers leaked online over the last week. The content apparently includes graphic descriptions of their executions."

The Express Tribune, 17 October 2023, Gigi Hadid, Bella Hadid receive death threats for supporting Palestine: reports: Reports claim that the Hadids have been forced to change their phone numbers to protect themselves. Sources close to the family have also revealed that Mohamed is considering involving the FBI to trace the perpetrators behind the death threats. -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:28, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Could you strike out, or otherwise identify, all potential sources above that do not meet Wikipedia's highest standards for sources, as required for BLPs? --Hipal (talk) 17:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Which of the listed sources would be acceptable to you, which would not be acceptable and why? -- Tobby72 (talk) 12:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Death threats and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

This information was reverted, with the following edit summary: " edit-warring against BLP". I don't agree with that. She is of Palestinian descent and her views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and related death threats are in no way a violation of BLP policy. If you disagree, please take it to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.

Hadid has supported the Palestinians and criticized Israel's policy towards Palestine for many years. In October 2023, she expressed concern about the humanitarian situation in Gaza during the Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip. She also condemned the Hamas-led attack on Israel. Hadid stated that she and her family have received death threats for their pro-Palestinian stance, saying: "I've been sent hundreds of death threats daily, my phone number has been leaked, and my family has felt to be in danger. But I can not be silenced any longer. Fear is not an option." In November 2023, Israeli music duo Ness & Stilla released the single "Harbu Darbu", calling for her death.

References

-- Tobby72 (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

If you disagree... That's not how BLP works, nor is it a sound approach for any disputed content in any contentious topic, let alone under three. Please stop edit-warring, and either try again to gain consensus or move on to something else. --Hipal (talk) 22:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Hadid's Palestinian activism is quite well-documented. I don't see why this shouldn't be included, although I maybe would rewrite this paragraph a bit differently. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 23:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how her well documented activism falls under WP:UNDUE. The previous discussion failed to reach a consensus so citing that as a reason to remove not only my latest edit but the entire section seems unjustified. - Ïvana (talk) 04:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned earlier, "Hadid has been a supporter of Palestine for many years That's supported by The Guardian, and should be the focus of anything we include. The rest are just reactions to her and attempts to benefit from Hadid's high level of recognition and interest." [1].

Those discussions ended when it appeared that editors didn't understand the basics of what references are appropriate for a BLP.

As I mentioned on Gigi's talk page, "It all comes down to what references we have available and relevant policies. For references: WP:RS, WP:IS, and WP:BLPRS. As to the POV issues: WP:NOT (especially NOTNEWS), WP:RECENTISM, WP:POV."

The Guardian piece doesn't give us much to work with, and doesn't rise above NOTNEWS and RECENTISM. Is there something better? --Hipal (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Those discussions ended when it appeared that editors didn't understand the basics of what references are appropriate for a BLP.

@Hipal, that's doesn't look like a fair assessment to me. The last discussion ended with Tobby72's question to you. Tobyby72 restarting the discussion again because the prior one stalled out due to the unanswered question doesn't seem problematic to me.

As for references, I see three or four useable ones in the list provided by Tobby72. Why not use those and how doesn't The Guardian apply? --Super Goku V (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. BLP (and the associated contentious topic) places high standards on editors. If editors cannot identify BLP-quality references, then it's unlikely we can make progress.

I see three or four useable Great! Identify the ones you think we can use, then let's see what we can do with them. --Hipal (talk) 18:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I am serious about my assessment. They wanted to know what sources you would accept and those that you would not. I thought you didn't see it because of the time difference, but that seems to have been incorrect.

The Guardian, The Independent, and The Times all seem to count easily. HuffPost and The Express Tribune would need some discussion to be potentially included. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

And I'm serious about my assessment.

Regarding the Guardian, I already wrote, without response, "The Guardian piece doesn't give us much to work with, and doesn't rise above NOTNEWS and RECENTISM. Is there something better?"

Re The Independent. It's a "Lifestyle" article, so we need to take care with giving it too much weight. It's churnalism, reporting on Bella's social media posts. The author provides almost no context beyond the penultimate paragraph. What do you think is usable from this reference?

Re: The Times. Archived copy found at https://archive.ph/lHphO . There's absolutely no context other than she's targeted in the song. --Hipal (talk) 16:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I think The Guardian with HuffPost can cover most of the proposed sentence "Hadid has supported the Palestinians and criticized Israel's policy towards Palestine for many years" between the following sentences: Hadid and her sister, Gigi, who is also a supermodel, are vocal supporters of Palestinian rights whose social media posts reach tens of millions of followers & Bella Hadid and her sister, model Gigi Hadid, have embraced their heritage and advocated for the Palestinian cause. The "for many years" portion might need a better source, but that is the only problem I see. NOTNEWS and RECENTISM don't seem to apply and would like clarification as to how those apply.

The Independent covers the proposed "She also condemned the Hamas-led attack on Israel" just fine. Bella Hadid posted a written statement to her Instagram condemning the Hamas attacks and advocating for the innocent lives of Palestinians amid Israel airstrikes in Gaz & “Seeing the aftermath from the airstrikes in Gaza, I mourn with all the mothers who have lost children and the children who cry alone, all the lost fathers, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunties, friends that will never again walk this earth.” I don't see a problem with using this source for VERIFY.

The Independent could also cover the "for many years" part discussed above. In the past, Hadid has taken public stances, standing with the Free Palestine movement. In May 2021, she received public backlash for attending a Pro-Palestine march in New York City along with her sister Gigi and Dua Lipa, who was dating her brother Anwar at the time. She was the target of an ad placed by the World Values Network in the New York Times condemning her support of Palestine, saying: “Hamas calls for a second Holocaust. Condemn them now.” If you think that is too much weight to give, then we can try to find another source. If you have a suggestion for a source, I would welcome it.

There's absolutely no context other than she's targeted in the song. So that would cover the proposed sentence, "In November 2023, Israeli music duo Ness & Stilla released the single "Harbu Darbu", calling for her death."

This would leave just two of the proposed sentences as needing new sources to be included in the article. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

NOTNEWS and RECENTISM don't seem to apply Why not? You're aware that this article is under three different contentious topics, so we shouldn't be ignoring or looking for exceptions to policy. BLP sets very high standards for the quality of sources and adherence to content policy. BLP also places the burden on those seeking to include content. --Hipal (talk) 17:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Why not? Hipal, you are the one claiming that NOTNEWS and RECENTISM apply. Why do I need to explain why a policy that you are citing doesn't apply? Just pointing at policy is frustrating as it doesn't make your point clear other than that you are claiming that X applies. (It also doesn't help that this was also brough up in the prior discussion.)

If it helps, I will go over NOTNEWS and hope that you will explain how RECENTISM and BLP apply to prohibit the suggested paragraph or its sentences.

NOTNEWS criteria 1 involves original reporting, but none of the sources are claimed to be primary sources, so it doesn't apply. News reports is criteria 2, but this isn't routine coverage of a celebrity with this involving the person's activism and harassment towards her. Who's who is criteria 3 and cannot apply as this is the primary article about a person. Criteria 4 is Celebrity gossip and diary which notes that not all events in a notable person's life are notable. Between the death threats and a song calling for her death, I find it easy to say that this qualifies as both notable and something "which our readers are reasonably likely to have an interest."

You're aware that this article is under three different contentious topics, so we shouldn't be ignoring or looking for exceptions to policy. Discussing how policy applies in this situation is not ignoring it. I have no idea what exceptions you are implying, but as far as I understand a policy either applies or it doesn't. As for the rest, there is a majority here that wants to include the content, the only issue is making it work with you as best as possible. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing NOTNEWS.

I'd consider that ROUTINE does fit this: Reporting on social media posts where there are minimal outcomes fits NOTNEWS's "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion and Wikipedia is not written in news style."

However, it fits the WP:NOTDIARY better. We have entertainment reporting covering social media posts.

Celebrities are harassed. It's an unfortunate part of life in the limelight. People are harassed for taking political positions. That's unfortunate as well. Neither have weight in an encyclopedia article when the references are poor and there are minimal outcomes.

Regarding our previous discussion, I responded to you with something that applies here as well: As I said, "name-dropping". The band used the names to get attention, the press eats it up, but in the end it has no impact on Hadid's own life beyond influencing the amount and tone of the impulsive reactions (social media, soft news, etc) about her. --Hipal (talk) 17:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)