Talk:Capability Brown

Image needed

We need to find a public domain image of the old chap.  Done

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Potential links

An interested editor could add to Brown landscapes that have Wikipedia articles by looking through "What links here." --Wetman 23:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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Headstone photo

I stumbled across a headstone for Brown at Fenstanton (I had no idea he was there, so reading the article has been rather interesting). If thought useful, i'd like to add my photo to his Wikipedia page. Take a look at my photo. Subfonic 08:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Please upload it to commons and include it in the article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Popular Culture

Perhaps some reference to Capability in popular culture, notably Terry Pratchet's nod to him in the form of "Bloody Stupid" Johnson? 87.194.7.55 14:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

...as appropriate as a reference to Monty Python's "Pantomime Princess Margaret" and the predatory tea tray in Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon.

Lancelot Brown Vs Capability Brown

This page should be under Lancelot Brown, not Capability Brown. His name was Lancelot, Capability was only his nickname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Newman (talk • contribs) 12:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia policy is to use the name by which the subject is most commonly known. This is done so that the article will be easy to find by people who are otherwise unfamiliar with the subject. For examples, see Babe Ruth, Peter Sellers, or Mae West (among hundreds of others). You wouldn't expect to find these people under the headings George Ruth, Richard Sellers, or Mary West, would you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.167.241.209 (talk) 01:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Willy Shakespeare or William Shakespeare??

I do not agree. This is not the case of Mae West or Mary West. If you wish you kan always add the “popular” name of Capability Brown to redirect to the article. Wikipedia is an encylopedia, not a pocket book. Most landscape architects including myself know him by the name - Lancelot ”Capability” Brown. And of course his name was in fact Lancelot Brown.

See for example this article from the Wikipedia

“The term landscape garden is often used to describe the English garden design style characteristic of the eighteenth century, particularly with the work of Lancelot 'Capability' Brown.”

Warrington (talk) 11:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Most people aren't landscape gardeners.Dancarney (talk) 08:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus for move--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 16:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

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Lancelot "Capability" Brown → Capability Brown — From a general perspective this person is most commonly known as Capability Brown, so the page should return to this title according to WP:COMMONNAME. — Dancarney (talk) 13:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as per WP:COMMONNAME rather than the existed convoluted version which is not in common usage. Keith D (talk) 22:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose

It is not at all convoluted.. It is commonly used in books about the History of Landscape Architecture, written as Lancelot "Capability" Brown‎ and the name was used by Sir Geoffrey Jellicoe ( - i am trying to show who he was instead of calling him influential, iconic and famous - a founding member and President of the Landscape Institute, the United Kingdom professional body for landscape architects, granted a Royal Charter in 1997, the founding President of the International Federation of Landscape Architects, member of Royal Fine Art Commission and a Trustee of Tate Gallery), and is used in university-level textbooks published in university presses. And I don't think that Lancelot Brown would be pleased or happy if he would read the encyclopedia article and would find it calling him Capability Brown.

Warrington (talk) 17:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The current title of the page does imply all prefered names. Capability Brown redirects here, if people search on the name Capability Brown, they will find the article on Lancelot Brown. The article will be found by interested readers.

As for the title, Lancelot “Capability” Brown is a highly suitable and acceptable title for the article, and it is the best compromise, because it has Lancelot, (some people requeste that the article should be entitled Lancelot Brown – and the article was indeed entitled Lancelot Brown for a while, and it has Capability, (since many people find that popular). There is no point in moving the article back and forward all the time. Lancelot “Capability” Brown has all tre names requested.

And, Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia, and the name Lancelot “Capability” Brown was used by Sir Geoffrey Jellicoe (as I pointed out before)

Warrington (talk) 13:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you should read the Wikipedia naming policy found at WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia is a serious encyclopaedia, but with a very wide scope. A specialist may refer to Brown as Lancelot, but a more wide-ranging encyclopaedia should use the most common name as title. For example, a specialist may know the author Mary Ann Evans but for Wikipedia she must be listed as George Eliot, the name most commonly assosciated with her. Dancarney (talk) 14:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I did. Read the Wikipedia naming policy. The purpose of an article's title is to enable the article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more. (Citation)

One doesn't have to use the WP:COMMONNAME mechanically. I remember Jay Leno asking people walking by, what Hitler was called (his first name). Everybody recognized “Hitler”, but a lot of people just guessed about his given name, like Timothy, Jim, Rupert or who knows what else, and the Wikipedia article is yet named “Adolf Hitler”, not only “Hitler”. (there is a redirect Hitler to the article). Just an (somewhat unpleasant, but well known) example. And George Eliot that's different, that is her pen name. She was using this name herself as an author on her books, because she didn't wanted to reveal that she was a women.

PS. (Just like Amandine Aurore Lucile Dupin, alias novelist George Sand. I wonder why it has to be George all the time?)

Warrington (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Warrington (talk) 15:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's naming policy, it boils down to

1. The name that is most generally recognisable
2. The name that is unambiguous with the name of other articles

I propose that Capability Brown is the most generally recognisable name for this person. Fair enough, George Eliot is indeed a pen name. Can I use Tiger Woods as an example instead? Dancarney (talk) 16:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know. And some lines further down Wikipedia's naming policy for Controversial names, says:

The purpose of an article's title is to enable the article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more. (this is a direct citation)

Lancelot Brown is quite often called for Lancelot (Capability) Brown or Lancelot “Capability” Brown: or even Lancelot Brown as well . It is not so unanimous like Tiger Woods, nice guy by the way.

like:

1. Lancelot Capability Brown Lancelot Capability Brown’s career of 32 years saw his style hardly change with the serpentine shapes becoming his hallmark. His popularity peaked at the ... www.greatbritishgardens.co.uk/lancelot_capability_brown.htm -

2. Lancelot “Capability” Brown: Britain Unlimited - British History ... 2. Who was Lancelot "Capability" Brown? Landscape Gardener and designer. Date and Place of Birth: 1715, Kirkharle, Northumberland, England. Christened Lancelot ...

3. A Biography of Lancelot 'Capability' Brown Lancelot 'Capability' Brown, a biography from the landscape and gardens guide. www.gardenvisit.com/biography/ Capability Brown biography Lancelot "Capability" Brown, master English landscape gardener - his life and work. Part of British Biograhy at Britain Express. www.britainexpress.com/History/bio/brown.htm

And than we have of course:

4. CAPABILITY BROWN is a progressive rock artist originating from United Kingdom that plays mostly Crossover Prog music (rock artist, not to be confused with Lancelot “Capability” Brown)

Lancelot Brown is called Lancelot Brown too, like in the Encyclopædia Britannica, for example, or Brown, Lancelot, A Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape,or Brown, Lancelot, The Oxford Companion to British History - thus having already a well established encyclopedical name. In general, the most educated way and the best compromise in this case is using all three (first name, last name and nickname), Lancelot “Capability” Brown.

Warrington (talk) 16:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, #1 is a specialist website (for gardeners), whereas Wikipedia is for a more general audience, #2 the article is titled "Capability" Brown #3 garden visit website is again for specialists, and the Britain Express the article is titled Capability Brown! Dancarney (talk) 14:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

1. Not at all, 1 is not a site for specialist, is for everybody, visiting beautiful gardens in Great Britain. You don’t have to be a specialist to visit nice gardens. And it is difficult talking about him and not mentioning gardens, Lancelot "Capability" Brown was a landscape architect, after all, not a movie star, popstar or some kind of a dandy. Why would somebody want to read an article on Brown, if they are not interested in gardens? (like nr 3 Lancelot Capability Brown, by Horace Walpole ) , “2“, see nr 36 [[1]] (they mention both names). There are plenty of websites using Lancelot "Capability" Brown, the examples above were just some random webbsites. On the contrary, this is a common way of writing his name, like [[2]], [[3]], [[4]], [[5]], [[6]], [[7]], [[8]], [[9]], [[10]], [[11]], [[12]] and so on. And Encyclopædia Britannica, is for everybody, and they use Lancelot Brown.

There is Lancelot Brown and there is Capability Brown. The best solution for athe title is still Lancelot "Capability" Brown which contains all the names.

Warrington (talk) 18:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Lancelot "Capability" Brown follows some other Wikipedia titles employing nicknames. With redirects, no reader is left behind.--Wetman 23:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Not All Good

I believe that it is important that we remember that not everything Lancelot Brown left a positive legacy. There is no mention this article, or the Cardiff Castle article, that he was responsible for tearing down medieval structures which had stood since Norman times. http://www.cardiffcastle.com/content.asp?nav=7%2C27&parent_directory_id=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.163.165.185 (talk) 12:16, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, he got some criticism as well.

Warrington (talk) 16:54, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

William Kent vs Capability Brown

From the opening summary section, I would conclude that Capability Brown's foremost achievement is that he overshadowed William Kent. My understanding is that Capability Brown is primarily known for achieving an unprecedented scale in landscaping. He went well beyond what his mentor had accomplished in this regard and thus is genuinely entitled to his fame. I think this should be an entry about Mr. Brown's notability, not a platform for promoting Mr. Kent's. Underalms (talk) 15:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Gardens and Parks

Many of the links in this section don't seem to link to quite the right page. It feels as if someone took the list from http://capability-brown.org.uk/ or http://lancelot_brown.totallyexplained.com/ or equivalent and just simplly linkified all the words. I've started to go through and amend the links to ones that seem more appropriate if I can find them. Some of the attributions seem a bit suspect though given the information available on the internet; I don't have any suitable reference books on the subject to check anything more authoritative. Can anyone help:? Ones I haven't been able to find any other evidence for (so far) include

• Althorp - The Althorp website says that the garden was designed by Henry Holland - see http://www.althorp.com/visits_house_history.php, who was Capability Brown's son in law.
• Astrop, Northamptonshire
• Beaudesert, Staffordshire

HelenBr (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

please insert reference to Terry Pratchetts hommage "Bergholt Stuttley "Bloody Stupid" Johnson"

no comment. see headline. fans would appreciate it and the original Brown would be proud of the "HoHo". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.194.82.118 (talk) 22:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Leeds Abbey

This article states that Brown was responsible for landscaping Leeds Abbey when the mansion was build after the dissolution of the priory there. Can any editor supply a reliable ref for this and add the info to that article? Mjroots (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: rename to Capability Brown. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:09, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

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Lancelot "Capability" Brown → Capability Brown – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:STAGENAME. As our article says, and as the references support, this person was most commonly known as Capability Brown. STAGENAME says to avoid "adding a nickname, or a contracted version of the original first name(s) in quotes between first and last name." No, it's not an outright prohibition, but there's no need for this practice when there's a perfectly good name that hits all of the WP:CRITERIA without resorting to the nickname-in-quotes approach. BDD (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support of course. I have no idea why it was ever at this dreadful title. We never usually add nicknames in this way, so there's no need to make an exception for Brown, whose actual name isn't even particularly well-known. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:44, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:00, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

• You seems to forget that the page was called Lancelot Brown once upon a time. Considering this Lancelot "Capability" Brown was an improvement. Hafspajen (talk) 03:25, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

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