Talk:Catholic Church in Sichuan

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Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by RoySmith (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Uriel1022 (talk). Self-nominated at 00:05, 9 September 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  • length, date, hook, paraphrase check ok. No QPQ needed, as second DYK nom of the editor. --Soman (talk) 03:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Catholic Church in Sichuan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Uriel1022 (talk · contribs) 15:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Pbritti (talk · contribs) 18:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Hello! It's Pbritti. While I'm monolingual, I think using some machine translations to stumble through the sources will be enough for me to give a decent review. Please ping me on my talk page if you need an immediate response. This review will get underway in sincerity sometime in the next 24 hours. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Pbritti, great to see you again, it has been a while. Thank you for taking time to do this review. Please don't hesitate to ping me if you encounter any discrepancy between the article and machine translation, the latter can be tricky. Uriel1022 (talk) 20:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some very much preliminary comments[edit]

Hey! I ended up on a plane today so my edits have all been by mobile (so is this one!). However, I wanted to initially note that the sources you've used are generally strong and I don't anticipate any issues stemming directly from your use of any of them. I did sense some discrepancies in how you term some proper nouns and would encourage consistency. For example, names like "Sichuanese Church" are readily understandable to someone familiar with Catholic terminology. However, solitary use of such a term without definition, especially in the lead, can be confusing. The same could be said in the use of "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic". Either of those terms are acceptable, but I would prefer you select just one to use consistently. Otherwise, my initial read-through was enjoyable and my future comments will be mostly about peripheral matters. Expect them sometime in the next 24 hours. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:48, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! Pbritti, the winners are Catholic, Catholicism and Catholic Church. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you find any grammatical error or awkward wording, and your advice would be much appreciated. Again, thank you for your time! Uriel1022 (talk) 18:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, Uriel1022. I have to delay my more thorough review of your work until Wednesday. If I could, I would prefer to just read your article and work with you for hours–it would be far more rewarding and interesting–but I have offline things that require attention. I apologize for the inconvenience and hope to compensate you by offering what I hope will be my most comprehensive GAN review. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No rush, Pbritti, the article can wait. Uriel1022 (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some additional comments:
Lead
  • Ecclesia Catholica in Seciuen or Secioan Are there instances in which the church in the region is referred to as such in Latin? Presumably it's in D'Elia, but I don't have access to that source. Willing to just AGF and enjoy the Latin.
    • checkY Done. I removed the Latin name, for the Church in Sichuan has never been referred to as such. I assumed in the first place that the Latin name is an "automatic relevance" to a member of the Latin Church, guess it's not the case. Looks like the source link is dead. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • personae non gratae Good work pluralizing that; consider linking the term, just as it is a bit of a technical term.
  • The last statistic of Catholics in the region you provide is from 1911. Are there reliable later totals?
    • I added one but not including Chongqing, Wanxian and Kangding. Things got very confused after several administrative and jurisdictional changes. Hopefully I'll come across something reliable for these three dioceses. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit more could be added, particularly on the church there since 1949.
Early period
  • received baptism the following year, who were the first Catholics in Sichuan I would suggest the more normative term were baptized (even if the sacramental theology suggests received is the better word). I would add that technically Buglio is the first Catholic in the region, so perhaps reorder the wording to say "first Sichuanese Catholics".
  • You wrote an outstanding article at An Account of the Entry of the Catholic Religion into Sichuan; a parenthetical indicating its date of first publication at this first mention is worthwhile so a read knows that it is not a (wholly) contemporaneous work.
  • the then intendant of Eastern Sichuan Circuit Consider rephrasing to "then the intendant of the Eastern Sichuan Circuit"
  • of converts in Baoning, Candida Replace comma with a full stop
  • invited a French Jesuit priest Claude Motel Either put commas around Claude Motel or exchange a for "the" (my preference)
    • checkY Done. Same here for the preference. I was wondering if "the" might indicate he was the only French Jesuit priest. Now I got it, thanks to you, Pbritti. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
18th Century
  • The Qing policy of treating Catholics are heretics vis-à-vis Confucians is described in the lead. This is not mentioned in the body and needs to be.
  • Similarly, the persecution of Catholics by neighboring communities on the behest of district magistrates is mentioned in the lead but not in the body.
  • The Lyonese Jean Basset Was he a priest or a layman?
  • On first mention, replace the Los with "the Lo family" and describe who they were
  • Kou was a Beijingese Rephrase. If he was a Beijingese convert, say so. If not, rephrase to "Kou was Beijingese" (the definite article is unneeded).
    • checkY Done. I rephrased it to "a Beijingese priest". - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The latter visited Rephrase to "De Martiliat visited"
  • she was over 50 Perhaps say "over 50 years old". Numbers up to a hundred are spelled out in most other instances in the article, so consider replacing with "fifty".
  • during the eighteenth century Use "during the 18th century"
19th Century
  • You mention "hidden Buddhists" and the 1858 missionary policy in the lead but not in the body. This should be resolved.
    • I was unable to find any elaboration on this matter. It seems like Mr. Laamann got some extra material at hand. I inserted this piece of information into the body text, with a little rephrasing. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The decisions refer primarily to the pastoral care of the sacraments. Chapter 10 Please indicate that the decisions were published, as a person unfamiliar with the concept of a local synod might not be familiar with that practice
  • In 1815, Dufresse was arrested and beheaded This event requires elaboration to indicate why it happened and who performed the actions
  • the "discoverer" of the pandas Presumably you're saying he was the first Westerner to learn about pandas. Add a one- or two-word modifier that indicates the reason for the quotation marks and drop the definite article in front of pandas.
    • checkY Done. I rephrased to "he discovered the giant panda, which was hitherto known only to the Chinese". - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, those are some substantial initial comments and more will follow at the end of the week. Good work, but I would specifically note that the lead does not presently function as a sufficient summary of the body and contains material unmentioned in the body. Please ping with any questions. Again, good work, Uriel1022! ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this amazingly detailed review, Pbritti. It may take two or three days for me to dig deeper into the subject. Guess I'll "see" you this weekend. Thanks again for your patience! Uriel1022 (talk) 20:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Uriel1022: Excellent work thus far! I'm reading through your adjustments now and intend to have a final set of comments completed within the next 24 hours. In instances where material can be easily corrected or modified, I'm taking the initiative to make those fixes myself. If you notice I do something you think might be imprudent for any reason, please revert me and just note it. I trust your judgement to the highest degree. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, Pbritti! I trust your judgement, too. Best wishes for your Aquilegia sibirica GAN! Uriel1022 (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TLP swinging by[edit]

Pleased to see this getting GAR. A few minor thoughts on the subject, as I am limiting myself to one published edit per day. Pbritti can put their main review on top of this subsection.

  • The presence of the Catholic Church in the southwestern Chinese province of Sichuan Would you like to include Chongqing into the lede? Could be "in Sichuan and Chongqing (traditionally part of Sichuan, separated in 1997) ..."
  • spent much of the 1640s doing evangelism -> "spent much of the 1640s evangelising", perhaps?
  • The primate of the province ... It is, I think, worthy to mention the Bishop of Chengdu or the Diocese of Chengdu in the lede. As far as I know, the CCPA made jurisdiction changes in the late 20th century and the Diocese of Chengdu serves as the role of a "province" over the new Sichuan province (without Chongqing).
  • 19th century: I think it will be much better if you can mention the Sino-French Treaty of the Convention of Peking (after the Second Opium War) that allowed Catholic missionaries to evangelise again in the country. Otherwise, a reader might not understand why Catholicism could came to a rise immediately in the second half of the century.
  • For your reference, there are former discussions on the reliability of catholic-hierarchy.org as a source (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_203#catholic-hierarchy.org, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_301#Catholic-Hierarchy.org).
  • The plight of the church during the Cultural Revolution is worthy to be mentioned, if you can find proper sources on this matter. It is understandable if sources are hard to find.
  • The leadership of the CPA in Sichuan could be mentioned. Sichuan CPA does constitute as a part of the "Catholic Church in Sichuan".

That's as much as I have–I am not going to add any more in this GAR. Take them as funny thoughts, not requirements. Cheers, --The Lonely Pather (talk) 19:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these great ideas, TLP, they would definitely make the article more complete. But issues 5 and 6 can be tricky. The CCPA's official site clearly has nothing to say on the statistics. Holy Spirit Study Centre published a 2020 report (see here), they briefly mentioned the number of Catholics in China, no provincial statistics presented. Catholic-Hierarchy.org is likely the only source we have. The history of the Church during the Cultural Revolution, I'll try, no guarantee though. You understand it perfectly.

Issue 4: already mentioned in the lede, "after the lifting of missionary controls in 1858". Issue 7: CCPA and BCCCC's governance over Sichuan is included in the infobox. Uriel1022 (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments[edit]

Ok, some bad news, Uriel1022. I was planning to perform a spotcheck on sources tonight and had to get started a bit later than planned (yikes–this review may end up getting completed this weekend, for which I am sorry). The more unfortunate part, however, is a major concern: there is a close paraphrasing issue evident in the lead: material referenced to Sichuan Religions is far too closely paraphrased. Some sentences are identically structured and utilize identical verbiage despite it being somewhat less formal than might be traditionally expected on Wikipedia. This is a significant issue. Using Earwig, I can already see a couple other instances: Cambridge and UCA News. Right now, it looks like there are around a dozen sentences throughout the article that lift verbatim or largely from sources but aren't quoted. This is a significant concern but does not automatically derail the nomination. I will get back to you more as soon as I am off work for the week. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My bad, I was being really lazy (oops). I'll fix the issue tomorrow, Pbritti. Please don't worry, take your time, I'm actually... quite comfortable processing at a slow pace. Uriel1022 (talk) 03:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I believe I've fixed the close paraphrasing issue, though 2%–3% similarity still remains. Uriel1022 (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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