Talk:Centennial Airport

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Images of aircraft[edit]

The image box with the aircraft pictures doesn't really belong on an airport's page. The entry isn't a photo gallery of aircraft based at the airport. No other entry has this. nf utvol (talk) 22:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinates[edit]

The coordinates need the following fixes:

  • UTM should be 13N

207.225.209.196 (talk) 23:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinates appear to be okay. BrainMarble (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prospects for future scheduled airline service?[edit]

Does Centennial's management have any desire for an airline to begin offering scheduled service? In other words, is their attitude anything like the management of Fort Collins-Loveland airport? (Since Allegiant pulled out in 2012, Fort Collins-Loveland is "covering the runway in red carpet" for other airlines that might come in and offer scheduled service.)

And if an airline did want to offer scheduled service, does Centennial have a passenger terminal facility that can handle that type of service? 75.163.175.81 (talk) 07:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The way to settle the map location dispute: US census bureau maps[edit]

The US Census Bureau publishes maps of its census-designated places. I will determine whether the airport falls within the boundary of the Dove Valley Census-designated place (Archive) as defined by the U.S. government. What I usually do is get an entire street address that points to the physical location and/or a map which shows the physical boundaries of a larger place, and that can be combined with the map to verify the physical location. @MilborneOne: @Dual Freq: @Watkinsian: WhisperToMe (talk) 18:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not only does most of the airport fall within the Dove Valley boundaries, but it seems like ones of its runways dips south past the county line into another "place". I'll check if the FAA PDF of the airport boundary shows street names/etc which a reader may use to orient himself/herself. This information is verifiable and is not original research, and I went through something similar at Talk:ENSCO, Inc. many years ago. The solution is outlined in the Talk:ENSCO, Inc. page and in Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard/Archive_14#Using_maps_to_determine_locations. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"BINGO!" (Archive). Got a map showing the airport boundaries! The airport is along "Broncos Parkway" so find that on both maps and put them together. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In comparison, maps of the city of Englewood including city map (Archive) and zoning map (Archive) Airfield diagram: http://web.archive.org/web/20021210035859/http://www.centennialairport.com/Data/airfield_diagram.html - http://www.webcitation.org/6XRmU1mCN - I don't see an airport in the city of Englewood. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

None of this is new to me – my edits have been directly based on the U.S. Census Bureau Boundary and Annexation Maps. The problem has been that Dual Freq insists that a place name appearing in a mailing address literally means that the location is in the municipality of the same name, and that referring to official U.S. federal government documents (such as those of the Census Bureau) – as we have done – constitutes naughty “original research”. Watkinsian (talk) 18:41, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not always as simple as a map. Airport properties may be annexed into another municipality and are no longer in whatever unincorporated area that the property was in 100 years ago. The county owns and maintains the airport and the mailing address is, in fact, Englewood, Colorado. I suppose one could have a similar argument about location for O'Hare International Airport, which was eventually annexed into the city of Chicago along with a narrow strip of land to join it to the city. In this case, I can not be certain that it was not annexed by some municipality in a similar manner, but I do know, without a doubt, what the mailing address is. Most rural airports in my area leave the location field empty in the infobox because they serve a city or county, but they are physically sitting on property that is within old township boundaries, though they may be owned by the county or annexed by the city they serve. I'm not interested in arguing with single purpose accounts focused on removing the word Englewood from articles, but if there is a legitimate discussion to be had, let me know. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dual Freq: 1. If a municipality suddenly annexes a previously unincorporated piece of land, it will be verifiable the moment it happens. The municipality will update the city limits maps on its official website, and the annexation may even make the newspapers. The US government for 2020 would update the relevant CDP maps. The City of Atlanta and Delta Air Lines even got into a legal conflict over the annexation of Delta's headquarters. In the case of O'Hare the airport (See the big circle to the northwest) appears as being in the Chicago city limits, in both the municipal and federal government maps. As long as the City of Englewood does not show Centennial Airport as being in its city boundaries, it is not possible for the airport to be in the city limits. If you suddenly see a news story about "Centennial Airport annexed by Englewood" or something like that, it's time to update the article.
2. "Most rural airports in my area leave the location field empty in the infobox because they serve a city or county, but they are physically sitting on property that is within old township boundaries, though they may be owned by the county or annexed by the city they serve." - Midwestern states do have historical "townships" but other states, such as Texas, do not have townships at all. In the cases where no township exists the location field should be the relevant county if the airport is not within a CDP.
3. According to the ENSCO, Inc. solution, the Englewood will not be removed. It is important for people to know that the airport is associated with Englewood, Colorado even if the airport is not in the city limits.
WhisperToMe (talk) 22:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dual Freq: Yes, it is as simple as a map. The U.S. Census TIGER application is updated once a year and presents jurisdictional boundaries in a consistent fashion across the country. Annexations and other boundary changes are reflected annually in this database. No, you don’t know without a doubt what the mailing address is. A single mailing address can be formulated multiple ways. In the case of the Centennial Airport area, ANY address with the ZIP code 80112 can be written as “Englewood, CO 80112”, “Centennial, CO 80012” or “Greenwood Village, CO 80112”. Of course, it is impossible for any address to be in all three of these non-contiguous cities at the same time. And since this ZIP code covers unincorporated Arapahoe County as well, an address may not be in any of the cities at all. Definite conclusions about whether a location is in a certain jurisdiction or not simply cannot be made based on a mailing address. Such conclusions, however, can easily be made referencing the Census maps.

@WhisperToMe: Each individual municipality’s “official website” may or may not have a map showing city limits, and if it does, who knows how up to date it is? We’re talking tens of thousands of entities here, all with their own methodologies and ways of presenting information. The only source that covers the entire country in a consistent and regularly-updated fashion is the U.S. Census Boundary and Annexation Survey. Watkinsian (talk) 07:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Watkinsian: Thanks for bringing up Tiger. Prior to 2010 it seemed like the individual municipality maps were of higher quality than the ones I could download from the 2000 U.S. Census website (I may have neglected to find any high quality 2000 era maps, though). Even today, sometimes the municipalities do have better maps than the feds, and those municipality maps may indicate features such as airports. It's a case-by-case thing. However in the case of the CDPs the feds are usually the only option.
It is true that several mailing addresses can be presented in different ways: e.g. one address for The Woodlands, Texas area may be presented as "The Woodlands, TX" or "Spring, TX" - If there is evidence a particular location is presented under different city names according to the USPS I find out the real location, and then refer to other associated locations. "AAAA is located in The Woodlands CDP, in proximity to Spring."
WhisperToMe (talk) 07:23, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the word "Dove" can not be found on the airport website. They don't seem have any interest in being associated with some Census assigned location. The USPS and "jurisdiction" issues are both red herrings. If the airport could pick whatever it wanted to pick instead of Englewood, why did it pick Englewood on every official document (FAA, county assessor and otherwise) they use and the airport website? On top of that you could probably leave the city blank on mail and just write a zip code and it would still get to the address. Jurisdiction is mentioned above, but it is clear the county is the one with authority and jurisdiction over the airport they own, operate and police. Dove Valley is a non-entity, except to the census bureau and there is no jurisdiction or authority associated with it, especially over this airport. We have a lat and long and the county (airport owner) is more than adequate to describe the location in this article. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:40, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dual Freq: It is true that there is no "Dove County" governmental authority. Wikipedia uses the CDPs as the basis of making articles such as West Pleasant View, Colorado. The population statistics, etc. reflect that of the CDP. Then logically the CDP article should talk about anything within its boundaries, and then the things within the boundaries should link back to the CDP. I can tweak the lead so it's clear that we're talking about the Dove Valley CDP. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why did it pick Englewood? Seems like I’ve explained ad nauseum: “Englewood” is place name designation assigned by the U.S. Postal Service to the ZIP code serving this unincorporated area. However the fact is that the City of Englewood lies SEVERAL miles away. Therefore, one can state in the article that “Englewood” is used in the mailing address – but based on the mailing address, one cannot report the location as being in the City of Englewood. Yes, absolutely, the USPS really only needs a ZIP code. That is why sometimes when you are asked for your address, only the house number, street name and ZIP code are required - the “city” name is superfluous. This seems to be reflected in how USPS conventions and methodologies pay little heed to municipal boundaries, leading to the very sort of confusion we’re dealing with here. As for the county and its authority and jurisdiction – you may recall I edited the Air Methods article at 04:50 on 17 February 2015 to indicate “Arapahoe County” as the location, as a compromise. And then what did you do? Promptly reverted to “Englewood”. Watkinsian (talk) 00:16, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FYI Watkinsian's comments are confirmed by a City of Houston page from 1996 explaining why the addresses of houses in Kingwood didn't change after Houston annexed it: "The U.S. Postal Service establishes ZIP codes and mailing addresses in order to maximize the efficiency of their system, not to recognize jurisdictional boundaries. Accordingly, a change in jurisdiction does not result in a change in mailing addresses." WhisperToMe (talk) 04:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Protection[edit]

OK I have protected the page from editing as I think thats enough disruption, you guys need to come to a consensus rather than continually edit war. Its now at a stage of disruptive editing and you can be blocked from being disruptive so please take care, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 21:44, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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