Talk:Chinese calendar/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Anno Flavi Imperatoris Sinarum vs. Anno Domini

According to one of the numbering systems that has been in use, 2009 AD is 4707 in the year of Huandi, or the Yellow Emperor. Since we have the Latin epithet 'Anno Domini', or 'AD', for the Gregorian calendar, we also need a Latin parallel for the Chinese lunisolar calendar. Let's call it 'Anno Flavi Imperatoris Sinarum', or 'AFIS', which literally means "in the year of the Yellow Emperor of China". Therefore, 2009 AD is also 4707 AFIS. --Roland 04:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Before this can be included in the article you must provide a reliable source where its use is mentioned. Nothing that you or any other editor invents is allowed in a Wikipedia article without citation. — Joe Kress (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessarily defensive! Did I say I want to put this in? Your extra energy can be spent on those religious items. --Roland 02:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

My misinterpretation was due to the Wikipedia guideline that an article's talk page can only be used for improving the article, thus I assumed you wanted this in the article. A talk page cannot be used to discuss the subject of the article per WP:Talk page guidelines. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

i. The idea's a western imposition. Just like how the Romans never actually used AUC, the Chinese actually dated (badly—that is, using inclusive counting and a lunar calendar with irregular intercalation) from the eras of their emperors, so much so that if you could find any historical Chinese use of the Yellow Emperor Era, that would be worth putting in the article. Afaik, they just periodically used the Yellow Emperor to align the era years without actually employing it.

ii. The stem-&-branch system could be configured into an Olympiad-style format or simply named. I'm sure some Jesuit or scholar explained the system in Latin (I.i, I.ii, I.iii... or animals plus the hours prima, secunda, tertia...?) but wouldn't know where to look for a source other than asking very nicely at the Vatican.

iii. The RoC established a permanent era name for the Chinese Republic now known as the Minguo calendar. Since this started in 1912, 2011 is in fact 民國百年. Since the French Republic actually called theirs the "Era of Liberty", AR or RS is still available for annō Reīpūblicæ [Sinārum] but of course the Chinese don't have much interest in Latin and just use a prefixed ROC when they're translating the idea. So this is the year ROC 100.

iv. As far as I know, the PRC has always used the 公元 (AD) system since assuming power in 1949. (The Minguo system above already uses the word "People" that differentiates their name from the ROC, plus it made things easier for the Russians.) You could make up a system where you dated a Commie Era (annō [Reīpūblicæ Populāris] Sinārum) from 1 October 1949 (中国62年, AS 62), dated "regnal years" from the paramount leaders (胡锦涛7年, annō Hu 7), or made up "regnal eras" from the announcements of their favored programs (河蟹6年, annō Harmōnīæ 6), but you'd be the only one knowing what you were talking about.

v. Your Latin needs work. Sinārum's "the Chinese". Contemporary Latin doesn't usually translate foreign names much (annō Huangdi or Huangdiī). Even if you did, in this case Latin would strongly prefer to see the adjective subordinate to the noun (Imperātor Flāvus, not flāvus imperātor) unless you're turning flāvus into the name Flavius. (And of course, Emperor Flavius has its own problems.) French and Italian both prefer to call the guy after a different word for yellow (galbinus) with somewhat less pleasant associations. Turn that into a noun and you've got Emperor Galba. (Although I'm curious if the secondary meaning of effeminate came before or after him. Further, the Yellow Emperor has been credited with introducing homo/bisexuality into China, though people don't really like to talk about that part.)

Regardless, Latin and Chinese and English all prefer shorter abbreviations than the one you're using. Rather than talk about the "Yellow Year" (especially in China, where "yellow" is a synonym for "perv"), they'd just call it the Chinese Era (中元, annō Sinārum or Sinæ). If anyone used it. Which they don't. ;) — LlywelynII 02:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Whoa. I stand corrected. Joe's link below shows that some Chinatown associations do use it. You should try to talk them into classing it up by adopting more Latin. Of course, they just say Lunar Year and annō Lūnæ doesn't work at all... lūnārī? lūnāticō? lūnāticōrum?

If we're thinking serious proposals, "Year of the Han" or "Year of the Hua" would probably be best since they supposedly date from Huangdi's union of the Jiang and Ji tribes, but they run into the same AH problems "Year of Huangdi" does. Back to AS? — LlywelynII 03:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Objection.

i Latin names in English are usually used for traditional Western culture. English name for traditional Chinese culture should use transliteration from Chinese. Therefore, for the English translation of 黄帝纪元, the term Huangdi Jiyuan is a preferer term than Anno Flavi Imperatoris Sinarum.
ii Nowadays, the only living calendar era system for Chinese calendar is the 干支 system, for example, this year is 乙未年. The other calendar era systems have already died.

-- Yejianfei (talk) 16:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

10 and 12 year cycles

WHY has the administration of Wikipedia allowed the structure of this calendar to be totally erased saying nothing about 10 year cycle and 12 year cycle listed by names. Instead a puzzle is charted as a very incompetent sample of the calendar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.120.119 (talk) 01:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Sexagenary cycle lists both the 10 Celestial stems and the 12 Earthly Branches, as well as a four full 60-year cycles around the present (1804–2043). — Joe Kress (talk) 20:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Continuous Year

The continuous year such as 4701, 4702 are never used by Chinese today. It was invented by Tongmenghui. After the ROC is found, they throw it to the garbage can imediatly.--刻意(Kèyì) 02:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Your statement is incomplete. Republican newspapers used at least two continuous year numbering systems differing by over a thousand years around 1905. In 1912, Sun Yat-sen had to decide which one he should use to identify the preceding lunar year that was prematurely terminated when the ROC announced the adoption of the Gregorian calendar on January 1. Futhermore, two other continuous numbering systems are currently in use by Western scholars, both based on the 60-year cycle, that were used as early as the mid-19th century. None of the three are used in China, but all three are used outside of China. The one selected by Sun Yat-sen is currently used by many/most "Chinatowns" in English-speaking countries, such as San Francisco's Chinatown, where Lunar Year 4708 began on 14 February 2010.[1] — Joe Kress (talk) 08:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Epoch

2012 claims to be 4708/4709 while this article claims 2012 to be 4710. Which is it? --Svip ^pong 16:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't find 4708/4709 in the article 2012. The lead of this article has had "4709 (or 4649 or 4710)" for the Chinese year beginning in 2011, which is wrong. Those years apply to 2012. Also, some editor increased all years in the Correspondence between systems section, changing their epoch form 2697 BC to 2698 BC without changing the notes below the table. Three epochs are used, 2698 BC, 2697 BC, and 2637 BC as discussed in Continuously numbered years. The first epoch is used by expatriate Chinese and popularized by Sun Yat-sen, the second and third are used by those who insist that the epoch must begin at the first year of a Sexagenary cycle, either the first or 61st year of Huangdi's reign according to many, but not all sources. This article was apparently standardized on 2697 BC, demoting the other two epochs. Because the Western calendar does not have a year zero, simply add the epoch to the current year. So 2012+2698=4710, 2012+2697=4709, or 2012+2637=4649. I'm updating this article appropriately, keeping the epoch 2697 BC as primary for now. — Joe Kress (talk) 03:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Happy Chinese New Year-- a fit time to discuss the topic, I suppose.

Joe, you changed the content of Sun Yat-sen's letter. While the year date remains the same, do you know which he actually said?

I wonder what the argument is for 2698 BC as opposed to 2697 BC and if the "first year" 元年 starts before or after the beginning of his reign. Historically, after seems more common. But anyway, for the article, 2697 BC, a cyclic year 1, seems better for the start of the epoch. Stone-turner (talk) 09:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I take Sun Yat-sen's statement from Chinese history: a manual by Endymion Porter Wilkinson, who states:

On January 2 1912, the provisional president of the provisional government, Sun Yatsen brought the confusion to an end by decreeing that the 12^th day of the 11^th lunar month of the year of the Yellow Emperor 4609 was new year's eve 1911 according to the solar (Gregorian) calendar and that January 1^st 1912 was the first day of the Republic, which would henceforth use the solar calendar and would count years succesively from 1912.

This is the only detailed description of Sun's statement that I have found. Wilkinson does not state how the decree was transmitted and some sources state that it was transmitted on January 1.

The confusion Wilkinson mentions is that least two opinions for the birth of the Yellow Emperor, 2698 BC and 2491 BC, were used in Republican newspapers (I have seen one other epoch used by another newspaper but don't remember where). I have also searched for Huangdi's epoch in books, but only those published during the 19th and early 20th centuries mention it. They usually refer to the eopch as the first year of his reign rather than his birth. None of these books count successive years from an epoch.

Western scholars started numbering sexagenary cycles during the 19th century, placing the epoch within the reign of Huangdi, the Yellow Emperor and one of the five legendary rulers, because he is reputed to have invented both a calendar and the sexagenary cycle. The year of his accession to the throne varies slightly depending on the source, ranging from 2704 BC[2] to 2688 BC,[3] but most sources place his first year at 2697 BC.[4][5][6][7] The eminent sinologist Herbert Allen Giles was a notable exception who placed the first year of Huangdi at 2698 BC in his works.[8] [9] — Joe Kress (talk) 22:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if there is a confusion between the year a reign started and the first year of a reign. For example, if Huangdi started reigning in 2698 BC, according the the practice of the classic Spring and Autumn Annal and the Ming and Qin rulers, the "first year" 元年 of the epoch would have been the following 甲子 [1]year 2697 BC, and this 2697 BC is generally accepted as the "first year". But Giles, understanding this practice, wrote that 2698 BC was the "first year" for his western audience in deliberate accordance with the modern western usage rather than the normal Chinese usage. Perhaps Sun also deliberately used 2698 BC in reaction against the normal imperial usage.Stone-turner (talk) 00:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for misleading you, but "first year" is the terminology I used because some sources just stated a year without clarification, and I used it too often. But most sources were more specific regarding what happened during the stated year. Giles (2698 BC) and Mayers (2697 BC) both used "accession", Lister and Pott (2697 BC) used "ascended to the throne", and Macgowan (2697 BC) used "elected ... to supreme power". — Joe Kress (talk) 07:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Looking in google books at Mayers, Pt. III p. 388, for at least the Qing emperors I checked, he puts the accession year the year after the death of the previous emperor. For example, Sheng Tsu reigned 1661/2/5 to 1722/12/20, but Mayers lists his accession year as 1662 and that of She Tsung as 1723. Wen Tsung reigned from 1850/3/9 to 1861/8/22, but Mayers lists his accession year as 1851, and that of the "reigning Sovereign" as 1862. But the starts of the year names are as Mayers wrote. I could not figure out how to look inside Giles' book, but in the case of Wen Tsung, etc., does Giles use "accession" to mean the accession upon the death of the previous emperor, as 1661, 1722, 1850 and 1861, or to mean something else? If he used the actual year the reign started, as opposed to Mayers, that may account for the difference in the Yellow Emperor's accession year also. I think Mayers took the 元年 of the era 年号、or earlier, the 元年 of the reign year, to be the accession year, although it is not necessarily so. I would expect Mayers and Giles to be one year off for many other reigns also. Stone-turner (talk) 08:51, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I checked the list of monarchs of Mayers and Giles side-by-side, and their accession years are virtually identical from the Hia/Hsia/Xia dynasty to the Ts'ing/Ch'ing/Qing dynasty, including the four emperors of the Qing dynasty that you cite. However, the first eight of the nine rulers they list in The Age of Five Rulers differ by one year, with Giles' accessions being one year earlier than those given by Mayers. Wikipedia's List of Chinese monarchs gives the reigns of the Qing emperors as beginning during the years you cite, not the years one year later given by both Mayers and Giles. Only the reigns of Qing emperors beginning in 1616 and 1796 are the same in all three lists. The same applies to Ming emperors, with reigns beginning one year earlier in the Wikipedia list than those by Mayers and Giles except for 1368 and 1620. Most of Wikipedia's list of five emperors (rulers) have reign years that differ from those of Mayers or Giles. These legendary reigns are only given by years, never by year/month/day, so an analysis of Qing emperor 'accessions' are not really comparable to legendary ruler accessions. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the trouble to check out Giles. I guess my theory that he consistently used actual accession years will not work. I will keep my eyes open for information about the Yellow Emperor's epoch, though.

As for the Ming and Qing cases you mentioned where the accession years and epoch 元年 are the same, I looked at them, and they can all be explained. 1368 and 1616 were the accession of dynasty founders (or usurpers), who of course would not use their rival's 年号 and in fact proclaimed their reign within the first few days of the year. In 1620, Taichang reigned only a month before his death, so his son exceptionally made the 7th through 12th months of that year his 元年 (see fn. 1 on his page). In 1796, Jiaqing's reign started on New Year's Day with the resignation of his father. I think in principle the Chinese dates should normally be used, don't you? 9 February 1796 and 1796/1/1 do not give the same information. I am not sure how it would work on Wikipedia, though. Stone-turner (talk) 06:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The Winter solstice for 2697BC is the epoch, and 2012 is 4710HE.

There're two Dongyue 13th in the first year of Taichu(太初元年).

Actually, in the first year of Taichu, there're 15 months, Shiyue I, Dongyue I, Layue I, Zhengyue, Eryue, Sanyue, Siyue, Wuyue, Liuyue, Qiyue, Bayue, Jiuyue, Shiyue II, Dongyue II, Layue II.

There's same issue in Huangdi Era.

From the winter solstice of 2698BC(for 2697BC) to the winter solstice of 105BC(for 104BC), 2593 years;

From the winter solstice of 105BC(for 104BC) to the Zhengyue 1st of 103BC, 1 year;

From Zhengyue 1st of 103BC to Zhengyue 1st of 1AD, 103 years;

From Zhengyue 1st of 1AD, to zhengyue first 1st of 2012, 2011 years;

Sum up, it's 4708 years; But, if you trace back with the calendar from Zhengyue, it's 4708 years and 2 months. It means that there're only 2 month in the first year.

Huangdi Era is not suitable for use in the years before the first year of Taichu. The calendar is too anarchy.

Orienomesh-w (talk) 06:50, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

So, in Taichu when they changed the start of the year from the Minor Snow 小雪 month to the present Rainwater 雨水 month they had a 15-month year? Thanks for the information. I knew that they moved the start of the year several times, and I had wondered how they managed it when they made it later. What period did they start the year in the Minor Snow month? I knew that Huangdi started the year in the Minor Snow month, but I did not know about it being used later also. Stone-turner (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Hungdi's Calendar, Zhuanxu's Calendar, Xia's Calendar, Yin's Calendar, Zhou's Calendar, Lu's Calendar is the calendar of the same age. Not related to the real dynasty(except Zhou's and Lu's). Those calendar chose different benchmark.

Huangdi's, Zhou's and Lu's chose the Winter Solstice as a benchmark, and set the month with Winter Soslstice as the first month of a year.

Yin's chose the winter solstice as a benchmark, and set the month with winter solstice as the last month of a year.

Xia's chose the Vernal beginning as a benchmark, and set the nearest day with dark moon as the beginning of a year.

Zhuanxu's chose the Vernal beginning as a benchmark, and set the month before the vernal beginning as the beginning of a year.Qin's calendar is the same as Zhuanxu's. But, the year beginning is moved to Shiyue(Maybe Shiyue is the birthmonth of Qin dynasty)

The epoch is defined by the Taoism, just because the winter solstice meet the day with dark moon, and the year is Jiazi.

The Zhengyue 1st was defined as the beginning of the year at Wuyue of the first year of Taichu.

Orienomesh-w (talk) 04:41, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

When you wrote "Huangdi" I thought you meant the "First Emperor 始皇帝" Did you mean the Yellow Emperor? By the way, this is why in English you often need the English meaning and the characters to make sense.

What is the word (in characters) that you are translating as "benchmark"?

You wrote "Qin's calendar is the same as Zhuanxu's. But, the year beginning is moved to Shiyue(Maybe Shiyue is the birthmonth of Qin dynasty)" So did the year start with Shiyue (十月) during Qin and also during the Han until Taichu?

You wrote: "Zhuanxu's chose the Vernal beginning as a benchmark, and set the month before the vernal beginning as the beginning of a year" I am not sure what that means. Does it mean that the Vernal Beginning 立春 is always in the first month of the year (that the year starts at the dark moon before 立春), or that 立春 is always in the second month in the year (in the month after the first month of the year)? Either way it seems strange because 立春 is not a central solar term 中氣. Or was it different then?

How would you describe the benchmark and the beginning of the year in the period from Taichu to 1645? Maybe that will help me understand your wording. Stone-turner (talk) 12:43, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

According to ancient legend, Huangdi is a chief of a tribe in Central Plains.

"First Emperor 始皇帝" is Yin Zheng, the founding emperor of Qin dynasty.

Huangdi is a Proper noun, we may know that it's a name of a person or dynasty by context. It's unnecessary to expaint in this article. For it's a article about the calendar, not about the legend. We do not care who is Augustus, when we read the article about the Gregorian calendar. I still do not care who is Gregory.

The solar terms are established little by little. two solstices(夏至、冬至) and two equinoxes(春分、秋分) came first, and then 4-beginnings(立春、立夏、立秋、立冬) came. In Taichu calendar, we start to use the 12 nodes and midpoints of the solar terms in the calendar. The calendars in Zhou dynasty can't use the solar terms in Han dynasty, For Zhou is earlier than Han for several hundreds years.

It's benchmark to check if we need the 13th month.

From the first yeat of Taichu to 1645, the benchmark is the midpoints of the solar terms, if the bias of the midpoints over half month, a month should be intercalary.

And the beginning of the year is Zhengyue 1st.

The lunisolar calendar in the western, balance the calendrical year and solar year by add the intercalary month before/after the bench mark.(In Hebrew calendar, VE is the benchmark, and the full-month day after VE is always in Nissan).

Chinese calendar , balance the months and solar terms, by add the intercalary month between two common months.

Orienomesh-w (talk) 02:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Strange Month Names

− − Orienomesh-w,

− − You have in the past few days done a lot of work on this article. There is a lot of detail about specific days, and you discuss the 2033-34 matter. However, much of your terminology is completely different from what is used elsewhere on Wikipedia, or even from normal usage anywhere.

− − First, you give the names of the months 11th month 十一月 and 12th month 十二月 as Dōng Yuè and Là Yuè . I am curious about those. What are the characters for them? But I think still it would be better to use shíyī yuè 十一月and Shíèr yuè 十二月as those are almost always used.

− − The translations of the names of the Chinese months are also strange. As this is the English Wikipedia, why use old Latin month names instead of English month names? Calling "January" "Januarius" doesn't have any meaning. Even more, what is the relation between the 11th month and January (or Januarius)? Often they don't overlap at all, as at the end of 2013. For later, I suppose "Quintilis" can translate "五月", but why bother?　Just translating as "11th month," "12th month," "5th month" etc. would make more sense and is what is almost always done.

− (I am also curious-- WS is "winter solstice," but what are GC, RW, GR, GF, GH, LH, FD, and LS?)

− − − Some of your other terminology is not ordinary English, for example your "civil year."(What is the term you are thinking of in characters?) "Civil year" means that is the one used by the government, which in this case would be Jan. 1 to Dec. 31 in the Gregorian calendar. Perhaps you should call it the "calendar year." That ordinarily it means the year from 1/1 to the day before the next 1/1 in whatever calendar you are using. It is often used in contrast to the "financial year" (for example starting in October) or the year starting with 立春, etc.

− − You call the year starting with the 11th month the "calendar year." you seem to mean "the calendar that calendrists use to construct the calendar," but as I mentioned above, that is not what it means in English. I have seen it called the "astronomical year." Maybe that would be better. Stone-turner (talk) 11:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

− − The Shiyi Yue ans Shier Yue is used commonly after computer application. But, in paper age, the calendar is marked with "冬月"、"腊月". No one called "腊八节" as "十二八节".

− − And, "冬月","腊月" is better choice for calendar year. "十一月","十二月" comes before "二月" ? Maybe we have to expain it with long words.

− − I try to make the calendar Easier to understand. But, we can't skirt around the Sui begins vs Nian begins, first month w/o MST between 11th months.

− − So, I changed the expression. Make a distinction between Calendar-maker year and Civil-calendar year.

− − Civil year is "民用年", just as the mean in the Hebrew calendar. Not just Jan 1-Dec 31.

− − the order number may cause misunderstand. so it's not a good choice. for example, Duanwu of 2012 is not in the fifth month of 2012. And, the fifth month in calendar year is not the fifth month in civil year.

− − The original mean of December is the tenth month. so I used it.

− − astronomical year is "回归年". A calendar year is the time between two dates with the same name in a calendar. So, it may be used for the time between two "冬月朔".

− − Orienomesh-w (talk) 13:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

− − In Hebrew calendar, the distinction between ecclesiastical year and civil year make things easy. We should learn form it.

− Orienomesh-w (talk) 13:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

− − Orienomesh-w

− − Thank you for your answer. By the way, thank you for putting the characters in for so many of your tables. I can get from character to meaning easily enough with a dictionary if I do not know a word, but if I only have the romanization (alphabet) word, I can only guess at the characters and see if it works, especially for technical terms. So I have no idea what Duanwu is.

−

− You wrote: "The Shiyi Yue ans Shier Yue is used commonly after computer application. But, in paper age, the calendar is marked with "冬月"、"腊月"."

− However, "Eleventh month" and "twelfth month" have been the standard month names for almost all the time for the past 3,000 plus years. For instance, the Spring and Autumn Annals 春秋 has 十有一月 and 十有二月 (腊 is not used at all), and the 19th-century long-term calendars 万年書 used 十一月and十二月. Of course all kinds of other names have been used as well, and apparently now 腊 is popular for the 12th month. But I think for this article we should stick with the standard names, not currently popular names. By the way are terms like 子月ever used as dates? For example can you say 子月廿六日？

− − I noticed you changed the names of the month to the modern number correspondences (六月 as June, etc.). That is certainly a lot clearer than before. However, the standard English translation of the months of the lunar calendar are "First month," "Second month," etc. That helps when you are reading something that has been translated something because you know which calendar is being used. Liu Baolin of the Purple Mountain Observatory uses "First month," etc. in his papers, and so does the paper at http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/calendar/chinese.html. In particular, the month of the winter solstice is the "eleventh month."

− − I still think your use of "calendar year" and "civil year" is strange in English.

− − You wrote: "Civil year is "民用年", just as the mean in the Hebrew calendar. Not just Jan 1-Dec 31." "In Hebrew calendar, the distinction between ecclesiastical year and civil year make things easy. We should learn form it." In Israel, the civil year is the Gregorian year, and the ecclesiastical year is that based on the lunar year. So also, in China the first month of the "civil year" is一月, not 正月. Of course, if we were writing a historical paper, the "civil calendar" and the lunar calendar would be the same, but a lot of this page deals with modern things.

− − "Calendar year" might be a good term for the year starting with the 11th month, except that it already has a different meaning in English. (What is the Chinese term you are trying to translate?) Why say the "calendar year" is the time between two 冬月朔? It could just as easily, and more naturally, be the time between two 正月朔. When we are using the Gregorian calendar and say something like "the beginning of the calendar year," we do not mean the time between two dates with the same name, as Nov. 1 to Nov. 1, we mean "Jan. 1." Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a standard term for a year starting with the 11th month. Liu has to use the awkward statement "one Eleventh month (inclusive) to the next Eleventh month (exclusive)." If you can come up with a good term, great.

− − − You wrote: "astronomical year is "回归年". "回归年" is normally translated as "solar year" or strictly speaking "tropical year" so that is why I suggested "astronomical year," which at least does not have a standard meaning. But maybe you can think of something better. Stone-turner (talk) 06:35, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

− − You're wrong about the Hebrew calendar. The civil year start at Tishrei 1, and the ecclesiastical year start at Nissan 1. No concern with Gregorian year.

− − I know the words in Spring and Autumn Annals. But, it's not a Calendar. "腊月" is the standard name of the last month of a Nian. Just as "March","April","May","June"...

− − NUS is not familiar with Chinese culture.

− − All people say so, and all paper calendar mark so.

− − Orienomesh-w (talk) 10:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

− − Even, "Zhengyue", "Eryue"... are better than "the first month","the second month"...

− Orienomesh-w (talk) 10:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

− − Orienomesh-w

− − Your translation of "calendrical year" for "calendar-calculating year" is at least a sensible translation. But it is very confusing to talk about the "calendrical year 2014, etc. starting with 十一月, or even 冬月. It is simply not used by anyone. It is the 年that is used.

− − You wrote "I know the words in Spring and Autumn Annals. But, it's not a Calendar." The "Spring and Autumn Annals" is not a calendar--certainly we don't have any calendars from the 8th-5th cent. BC, but it does show that the standard month names at that time were were "11th month" and "12th month" . Furthermore, the Qing-period long-term calendars 万年書 and the 20th-century official calendars 二百年历表 : 1821-2020年 and 新编万年历: 1840~2050年 also use 十一月 and 十二月. I have copies of some of their pages. Maybe recently 冬月 and 腊月 have become popular for printed calendars, but one can hardly say that the names "eleventh month 十(有)一月" and "twelfth month 十(有)二月" were influenced by computers!

− − But for the purpose of Wikipedia, the problem of English names is much more important. You wrote "Even, "Zhengyue", "Eryue"... are better than "the first month","the second month"…" Why? I really don't understand that. This is the English Wikipedia, for people who read English, and for most of them "Zhengyue", "Eryue" mean absolutely nothing. You are even erasing the 正月、二月、五月、etc. that someone put the trouble to write in. Many people who know some Chinese characters would like to know the characters for the months and other terms. Why did you erase them? Are you afraid that someone will discover that 　Eryue is 二月 and means "2nd month"? Besides, I see absolutely no reason why not to use "2nd month," etc. Liu Baolin 刘宝琳, chief calendarist at the Purple Mountain Observatory 中国科学院紫金山天文台 uses "Second month," etc. (the Eleventh month being the Winter Solstice month) in his English papers--I have them in front of me. Why can't you use them? Also, it has been used in Wikipedia until now. Why change it? In the lunar calendar that you posted, "二月" is the 2nd month, not the fourth, etc. Furthermore, it is a small thing, but when you are talking about holidays, dates like "Wuyue 5th", "Qiyue 7th", "Jiuyue 9th" don't show the doubling of the number like"5th month 5th day", etc. do.

− − In the text you wrote "There's no doubt that the calendrical year from 2012-12-21 is the 2117th calendrical year of Chinese calendar, and the civil year from 2013-2-10 is the 2117th civil year of Chinese calendar." But it is not the only one that is used. You simply just removed all the discussion of other years.

− − The basic problem is that you simply ignore everything that has been written on the subject for your own ideas.Stone-turner (talk) 14:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

− − Transliterating the proper noun, is a customary rule. Eryue means "二月"，not the second month. Just like December means December, not the tenth month.Orienomesh-w

− − In Hebrew calendar, Hajrah calendar, Jalaali calendar, the name of month is by transliterating, Why in Chinese calendar by free translation?

− (talk) 04:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

− In Chinese environment, 十二月、一月 means December/January, and 腊月、正月 means Layue and Zhengyue. And 年前、年后 means before/after Spring, and before/after new year in Geogrian calendar must be called as 元旦前、元旦后.

− − It's beyond 刘宝琳's control.

− Orienomesh-w (talk) 05:21, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

−

"Calendrical year"? Never before! Do you know what it means by Layue 8, 2013? It is sui or tropical year that is used to determine... If there are 12 months (including neither of the 11th months or Dongyue) in a sui, the sui is a leap sui and the first month without... and the year... is a leap year! --Q5968661 (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

−

Here are the rules for the Chinese calendar.

− −

Rule 1 Calculations are based on the meridian 120°East.

−

Rule 2 The Chinese day starts at midnight.

−

Rule 3 The day on which a new Moon occurs is the first day of the new month.

−

Rule 4 The December solstice falls in month 11. A suì is a leap suì if there are 12 complete months between the two 11th months at the beginning and end of the suì.

−

Rule 5 In a leap suì, the first month that does not contain a zhongqì is the leap month, rùnyuè. The leap month takes the same number as the previous month.

− 117.27.134.28 (talk) 03:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

− − Sui is the day of winter solstice to the day of the next winter solstice. So, there're 355 or 366 days in a sui. Runsui should be a sui with 366 days. 岁者，遂也。三百六十六日一周天，万物毕死，故为一岁也

− Orienomesh-w (talk) 03:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

−

请不要再固执己见，把十一月当January、把天干地支六十甲子纪日当week解，还搞出一个多余的历算年来。其实农历并不是什么值得国人骄傲的东西，单从它的名称来说就有点让人啼笑皆非。183.250.0.247 (talk) 00:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

This section has been repeatedly deleted, which is against Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Stone-turner (talk) 13:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

About the calendars(古六历) before Taichu calendar

The calendars before Taichu calendar is without the solid evidences.

The frame of them is presumed by the information in the historical records. Such as dark moon, solar eclipse, stem-branches.

So, the descrition about the calendar before Taichu calendar is not reliable.

Basically, Huangdi's calendar, Zhou's calendar, Lu's calendar is regard as winter solstice first(天正). The last darkmoon day before the winter solstice is the first day of a year(The first year contains winter solstice).

Yin's calendar is regard as perihelion(coldest) first(地正). The first darkmoon day after the winter solstice is the first day of a year.(The last month contains winter solstice)

Xia's calendar is regard as vernal beginning first(人正). the darkmoon day near to the Vernal beginning is the first day of a year(The vernal beginning is between the last and first fullmonth-days )

Zhuanxu's calendar is regard as vernal begining first. The last darkmoon day before the vernal beginning is the first day of a year(The first month include vernal begining).

Orienomesh-w (talk) 02:56, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

The relationship between solar year and months

a solar year always contains 11 or 12 whole-months, and 2 parts. But, it the winter solstice or the next winter solstice is just the midnight of the darkmoon day, the solar year will contain 12 whole-month and a part.

regard winter sostice as a point,

	11 whole-months and 2 parts	12 whole-months and a part	12 whole-months asn 2 parts
solar year	379	0	221

regard winter solstice as a day,

	11 whole-months and 2 parts	12 whole-months and a part	12 whole-months and 2 parts
solar year	356	42	202

Solar year	Days	days of first part	days of whole month	days of second part
1810	365	14	326	25
1811	366	4	355	7
1812	365	22	325	18
1813	365	12	324	29
1814	365	1	354	10
1815	365	19	325	21
1816	366	8	355	3
1817	365	26	325	14
1818	365	16	325	24
1819	365	5	355	5
1820	366	25	325	16
1821	365	13	325	27
1822	365	2	354	9
1823	365	21	324	20
1824	366	10	354	2
1825	365	28	325	12
1826	365	17	325	23
1827	365	7	354	4
1828	366	26	325	15
1829	365	14	325	26
1830	365	4	354	7
1831	365	23	324	18
1832	366	12	354	0
1833	365	30	324	11
1834	365	19	325	21
1835	365	8	355	2
1836	366	27	325	14
1837	365	16	325	24
1838	365	5	355	5
1839	365	24	325	16
1840	366	14	324	28
1841	365	2	354	9
1842	365	21	324	20
1843	365	10	354	1
1844	366	29	325	12
1845	365	17	325	23
1846	365	7	354	4
1847	365	26	325	14
1848	365	15	325	25
1849	366	5	353	8
1850	365	22	325	18
1851	365	11	354	0
1852	365	30	325	10
1853	366	19	326	21
1854	365	8	355	2
1855	365	27	325	13
1856	365	17	325	23
1857	366	6	354	6
1858	365	24	324	17
1859	365	13	324	28
1860	365	2	354	9
1861	366	21	325	20
1862	365	9	355	1
1863	365	29	325	11
1864	365	18	325	22
1865	366	8	354	4
1866	365	26	324	15
1867	365	15	324	26
1868	365	4	354	7
1869	366	23	324	19
1870	365	11	354	0
1871	365	30	325	10
1872	365	19	326	20
1873	366	9	355	2
1874	365	27	325	13
1875	365	17	324	24
1876	365	6	354	5
1877	366	24	325	17
1878	365	12	325	28
1879	365	2	354	9
1880	365	21	325	19
1881	366	10	355	1
1882	365	29	324	12
1883	365	18	325	22
1884	365	7	354	4
1885	365	26	324	15
1886	366	15	325	26
1887	365	3	355	7
1888	365	22	325	18
1889	365	12	325	28
1890	366	1	355	10
1891	365	19	325	21
1892	365	9	354	2
1893	365	28	324	13
1894	366	17	324	25
1895	365	5	354	6
1896	365	24	325	16
1897	365	13	325	27
1898	366	3	354	9
1899	365	21	325	19
1900	365	10	355	0
1901	365	29	325	11
1902	366	19	324	23
1903	365	7	354	4
1904	365	25	325	15
1905	365	15	325	25
1906	366	4	355	7
1907	365	22	325	18
1908	365	12	325	28
1909	365	1	355	9
1910	366	20	325	21
1911	365	9	353	3
1912	365	27	325	13
1913	365	16	325	24
1914	366	5	355	6
1915	365	23	326	16
1916	365	13	325	27
1917	365	3	354	8
1918	365	22	324	19
1919	366	11	354	1
1920	365	29	324	12
1921	365	18	324	23
1922	365	7	354	4
1923	366	26	325	15
1924	365	14	326	25
1925	365	4	355	6
1926	365	23	325	17
1927	366	13	324	29
1928	365	1	354	10
1929	365	20	324	21
1930	365	9	354	2
1931	366	28	324	14
1932	365	16	325	24
1933	365	5	355	5
1934	365	24	326	15
1935	366	14	325	27
1936	365	3	354	8
1937	365	22	324	19
1938	365	11	354	0
1939	366	29	325	12
1940	365	17	325	23
1941	365	7	354	4
1942	365	26	325	14
1943	366	15	325	26
1944	365	4	354	7
1945	365	23	325	17
1946	365	12	325	28
1947	366	1	354	11
1948	365	19	325	21
1949	365	8	355	2
1950	365	27	325	13
1951	366	17	325	24
1952	365	5	355	5
1953	365	24	325	16
1954	365	14	324	27
1955	365	3	354	8
1956	366	22	324	20
1957	365	10	354	1
1958	365	29	325	11
1959	365	18	325	22
1960	366	8	354	4
1961	365	26	325	14
1962	365	15	325	25
1963	365	5	354	6
1964	366	24	324	18
1965	365	12	324	29
1966	365	1	354	10
1967	365	20	325	20
1968	366	9	355	2
1969	365	27	325	13
1970	365	17	325	23
1971	365	6	355	4
1972	366	25	325	16
1973	365	13	325	27
1974	365	2	355	8
1975	365	21	325	19
1976	366	10	355	1
1977	365	28	326	11
1978	365	18	325	22
1979	365	8	354	3
1980	366	27	324	15
1981	365	15	324	26
1982	365	4	354	7
1983	365	23	324	18
1984	366	12	354	0
1985	365	30	325	10
1986	365	19	326	20
1987	365	9	355	1
1988	365	28	325	12
1989	366	18	324	24
1990	365	6	354	5
1991	365	25	324	16
1992	365	14	324	27
1993	366	3	354	9
1994	365	21	325	19
1995	365	10	355	0
1996	365	29	326	10
1997	366	19	325	22
1998	365	8	354	3
1999	365	26	325	14
2000	365	16	324	25
2001	366	5	354	7
2002	365	22	325	18
2003	365	12	325	28
2004	365	1	355	9
2005	366	20	325	21
2006	365	9	354	2
2007	365	28	325	12
2008	365	17	325	23
2009	366	6	354	6
2010	365	24	325	16
2011	365	13	325	27
2012	365	3	354	8
2013	366	22	325	19
2014	365	10	355	0
2015	365	29	325	11
2016	365	19	324	22
2017	366	8	354	4
2018	365	26	324	15
2019	365	15	324	26
2020	365	4	355	6
2021	365	23	325	17
2022	366	13	325	28
2023	365	1	355	9
2024	365	20	325	20
2025	365	10	354	1
2026	366	29	324	13
2027	365	17	324	24
2028	365	6	354	5
2029	365	25	324	16
2030	366	14	325	27
2031	365	3	354	8
2032	365	22	325	18
2033	365	11	325	29
2034	366	1	354	11
2035	365	18	325	22
2036	365	7	354	4
2037	365	26	325	14
2038	366	15	325	26
2039	365	4	355	6
2040	365	23	325	17
2041	365	13	325	27
2042	366	2	354	10
2043	365	20	324	21
2044	365	9	354	2
2045	365	28	324	13
2046	366	17	325	24
2047	365	5	355	5
2048	365	24	325	16
2049	365	14	325	26
2050	366	4	354	8
2051	365	22	324	19
2052	365	11	354	0
2053	365	30	324	11
2054	366	19	324	23
2055	365	7	354	4
2056	365	26	325	14
2057	365	15	325	25
2058	365	5	355	5
2059	366	24	325	17
2060	365	13	324	28
2061	365	2	354	9
2062	365	21	324	20
2063	366	10	354	2
2064	365	27	325	13
2065	365	17	325	23
2066	365	6	355	4
2067	366	25	325	16
2068	365	14	325	26
2069	365	3	355	7
2070	365	22	325	18
2071	366	11	354	1
2072	365	29	325	11
2073	365	18	325	22
2074	365	8	354	3
2075	366	27	325	14
2076	365	15	325	25
2077	365	5	354	6
2078	365	24	324	17
2079	366	13	324	29
2080	365	1	354	10
2081	365	20	324	21
2082	365	9	354	2
2083	366	28	325	13
2084	365	17	325	23
2085	365	6	355	4
2086	365	25	325	15
2087	366	15	324	27
2088	365	3	354	8
2089	365	22	324	19
2090	365	11	354	0
2091	365	30	324	11
2092	366	19	325	22
2093	365	8	354	3
2094	365	27	325	13
2095	365	16	325	24
2096	366	6	354	6
2097	365	23	325	17
2098	365	12	325	28
2099	365	1	355	9
2100	366	20	325	21
2101	365	9	354	2
2102	365	28	325	12
2103	365	18	325	22
2104	366	7	354	5
2105	365	25	324	16
2106	365	14	324	27
2107	365	3	354	8
2108	366	22	325	19
2109	365	10	355	0
2110	365	29	325	11
2111	365	19	325	21
2112	366	9	354	3
2113	365	27	324	14
2114	365	16	324	25
2115	365	5	354	6
2116	366	24	324	18
2117	365	12	325	28
2118	365	1	355	9
2119	365	20	325	20
2120	366	10	354	2
2121	365	28	325	12
2122	365	17	325	23
2123	365	7	354	4
2124	365	26	324	15
2125	366	15	324	27
2126	365	3	354	8
2127	365	22	325	18
2128	365	11	325	29
2129	366	1	354	11
2130	365	19	325	21
2131	365	8	355	2
2132	365	27	325	13
2133	366	16	325	25
2134	365	4	355	6
2135	365	23	325	17
2136	365	13	325	27
2137	366	2	355	9
2138	365	20	325	20
2139	365	10	354	1
2140	365	29	324	12
2141	366	18	324	24
2142	365	6	354	5
2143	365	25	324	16
2144	365	14	325	26
2145	366	3	355	8
2146	365	22	325	18
2147	365	11	325	29
2148	365	1	354	10
2149	366	20	324	22
2150	365	8	354	3
2151	365	27	324	14
2152	365	16	324	25
2153	366	5	354	7
2154	365	23	325	17
2155	365	12	326	27
2156	365	2	355	8
2157	365	21	325	19
2158	366	11	354	1
2159	365	28	325	12
2160	365	17	325	23
2161	365	6	355	4
2162	366	25	325	16
2163	365	14	325	26
2164	365	3	355	7
2165	365	23	324	18
2166	366	12	354	0
2167	365	30	324	11
2168	365	19	324	22
2169	365	8	354	3
2170	366	27	325	14
2171	365	15	325	25
2172	365	5	354	6
2173	365	24	325	16
2174	366	13	325	28
2175	365	2	354	9
2176	365	21	324	20
2177	365	10	354	1
2178	366	29	324	13
2179	365	17	325	23
2180	365	6	355	4
2181	365	25	325	15
2182	366	15	325	26
2183	365	3	355	7
2184	365	22	325	18
2185	365	12	324	29
2186	366	1	354	11
2187	365	19	324	22
2188	365	8	354	3
2189	365	27	325	13
2190	366	16	325	25
2191	365	5	354	6
2192	365	24	325	16
2193	365	13	325	27
2194	365	3	353	9
2195	366	21	325	20
2196	365	9	354	2
2197	365	28	325	12
2198	365	17	326	22
2199	366	7	355	4
2200	365	25	325	15
2201	365	15	325	25
2202	365	4	354	7
2203	366	23	324	19
2204	365	11	354	0
2205	365	30	324	11
2206	365	19	325	21
2207	366	8	355	3
2208	365	26	326	13
2209	365	16	325	24
2210	365	6	354	5
2211	366	25	324	17
2212	365	13	324	28
2213	365	2	354	9
2214	365	21	324	20
2215	366	10	354	2
2216	365	28	325	12
2217	365	17	326	22
2218	365	7	355	3
2219	366	26	325	15
2220	365	15	324	26
2221	365	4	354	7
2222	365	22	325	18
2223	366	11	355	0
2224	365	29	325	11
2225	365	19	325	21
2226	365	8	355	2
2227	365	28	324	13
2228	366	17	325	24
2229	365	5	354	6
2230	365	24	324	17
2231	365	13	325	27
2232	366	2	355	9
2233	365	20	325	20
2234	365	10	354	1
2235	365	29	325	11
2236	366	18	325	23
2237	365	7	354	4
2238	365	26	324	15
2239	365	15	324	26
2240	366	4	354	8
2241	365	22	325	18
2242	365	11	325	29
2243	365	1	354	10
2244	366	20	325	21
2245	365	8	355	2
2246	365	27	325	13
2247	365	17	324	24
2248	366	6	354	6
2249	365	23	325	17
2250	365	13	325	27
2251	365	2	355	8
2252	366	21	325	20
2253	365	10	354	1
2254	365	29	325	11
2255	365	18	325	22
2256	366	8	353	5
2257	365	25	325	15
2258	365	14	325	26
2259	365	3	355	7
2260	366	22	326	18
2261	365	11	325	29
2262	365	1	354	10
2263	365	20	324	21
2264	365	9	354	2
2265	366	28	324	14
2266	365	16	324	25
2267	365	5	354	6
2268	365	24	325	16
2269	366	13	326	27
2270	365	2	355	8
2271	365	21	325	19
2272	365	11	354	0
2273	366	30	324	12
2274	365	18	324	23
2275	365	7	354	4
2276	365	26	324	15
2277	366	15	325	26
2278	365	3	355	7
2279	365	22	326	17
2280	365	12	325	28
2281	366	2	354	10
2282	365	20	324	21
2283	365	9	354	2
2284	365	27	325	13
2285	366	16	325	25
2286	365	5	354	6
2287	365	24	325	16
2288	365	13	325	27
2289	366	3	354	9
2290	365	21	325	19
2291	365	10	354	1
2292	365	29	324	12
2293	366	18	325	23
2294	365	6	355	4
2295	365	25	325	15
2296	365	15	325	25
2297	365	4	355	6
2298	366	23	325	18
2299	365	12	324	29
2300	365	1	354	10
2301	365	20	324	21
2302	366	9	354	3
2303	365	27	325	13
2304	365	16	325	24
2305	365	6	354	5
2306	366	25	325	16
2307	365	13	325	27
2308	365	3	354	8
2309	365	22	324	19
2310	366	11	354	1
2311	365	28	325	12
2312	365	18	325	22
2313	365	7	355	3
2314	366	26	325	15
2315	365	15	325	25
2316	365	4	355	6
2317	365	23	325	17
2318	366	12	354	0
2319	365	30	325	10
2320	365	19	325	21
2321	365	8	355	2
2322	366	27	326	13
2323	365	16	325	24
2324	365	6	354	5
2325	365	25	324	16
2326	366	14	324	28
2327	365	2	354	9
2328	365	21	324	20
2329	365	10	354	1
2330	365	29	325	11
2331	366	18	326	22
2332	365	7	355	3
2333	365	26	325	14
2334	365	16	324	25
2335	366	5	354	7
2336	365	23	324	18
2337	365	12	324	29
2338	365	1	354	10
2339	366	20	325	21
2340	365	8	355	2
2341	365	27	326	12
2342	365	17	325	23
2343	366	7	354	5
2344	365	24	325	16
2345	365	14	324	27
2346	365	3	354	8
2347	366	21	325	20
2348	365	10	354	1
2349	365	29	325	11
2350	365	18	325	22
2351	366	8	354	4
2352	365	26	325	14
2353	365	15	325	25
2354	365	4	354	7
2355	366	23	325	18
2356	365	11	325	29
2357	365	1	354	10
2358	365	20	325	20
2359	366	9	355	2
2360	365	27	325	13
2361	365	17	324	24
2362	365	6	354	5
2363	365	25	324	16
2364	366	14	324	28
2365	365	2	355	8
2366	365	21	325	19
2367	365	11	354	0
2368	366	30	325	11
2369	365	18	325	22
2370	365	8	354	3
2371	365	27	324	14
2372	366	16	324	26
2373	365	4	354	7
2374	365	23	324	18
2375	365	12	325	28
2376	366	2	354	10
2377	365	20	325	20
2378	365	9	355	1
2379	365	28	325	12
2380	366	17	325	24
2381	365	5	354	6
2382	365	24	325	16
2383	365	13	325	27
2384	366	3	355	8
2385	365	21	325	19
2386	365	11	354	0
2387	365	30	324	11
2388	366	19	324	23
2389	365	7	354	4
2390	365	26	324	15
2391	365	15	325	25
2392	366	4	355	7
2393	365	22	325	18
2394	365	12	325	28
2395	365	2	354	9
2396	365	21	324	20
2397	366	10	354	2
2398	365	28	324	13
2399	365	17	324	24
2400	365	6	354	5
2401	366	25	325	16
2402	365	13	325	27
2403	365	3	355	7
2404	365	22	325	18
2405	366	12	354	0
2406	365	29	325	11
2407	365	19	324	22
2408	365	8	354	3
2409	366	26	325	15

Chinese calendar vs Calendars in China

From the edit history of the page, it appears that this article had been heavily edited to include a number of different calendars used in China. IIRC, the term "Chinese calendar" in English commonly refers to the lunisolar calendar known as nónglì (农历) or xiàlì (夏历), and the first day of the year in the calendar is celebrated as the Chinese New Year festival. I suggest that the subject of this page should be exclusively about the nónglì calendar. As for the other calendar systems in China, separate articles should be created, either as a whole or for individual calendars. For example, Chinese Wikipedia has an article for nónglì (zh:農曆), as well as an article for "Traditional calendars in China" (zh:中国传统历法) that includes brief descriptions of the various calendars and links to their individual articles.--Joshua ^{Say "hi" to me!}_{What I've done?} 08:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe edit this article to have stuff about the official Chinese calendar first and then a heading "Other calendars used in China" for the rest? To be fair they are all "Chinese calendars" since they are used in China by the Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.122.165 (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

External links in Chinese?

Some of the external links - like the Miao calendar, and 2000-year Chinese-Western calendar converter are in Chinese. Is that appropriate for the English page? Should they be removed? If I can read Chinese, I would probably go to the Chinese version of the page...and put the links there. As a purely English reader, I find that the links take up space and waste the clicks of readers. Comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fodaley (talk • contribs) 03:00, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

If you read WP:NONENGEL you will find that Chinese language links are acceptable in certain circumstances. Of course, an English language resource would be preferred if one is available, but they aren't always such. Some of the external links on this article seem to be duplicating each other, also the link to baike.baidu.com doesn't qualify here as the topic, if relevant, should be in a Wikipedia article. We shouldn't link to other encyclopaedia style articles. I will rationalise this a bit. Rincewind42 (talk) 07:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)