Talk:Christmas truce/Archive 1

Archive 1

More Legacy in Song

Under the Category Legacy, I think it's appropriate to mention the song by The Royal Guardsmen called "Snoopy's Christmas"? A similar exchange, probably inspired by this story, takes place between Snoopy and The Red Baron (a major WWI icon). Some information (including lyrics) about this song can be found here: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=4085 What kind of credibility a webpage has to have in order to link to that page as a credible "source"? Do any well-known 'lyrics' and song webpages have that credibility? Any help is appreciated!

Mykar15 17:14, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Erm

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/xmas-j17.shtml But gradually, through threats and further orders, the generals broke the truce. Instrumental was the ruthlessness of such men as Billy Congreve of the 3rd Division, north of Kemmel, who wrote, at the height of the truce:

“We have issued strict orders to the men, not on any accounts allow a ‘truce,’ as we have heard they will try to. The Germans did try. They came over towards us singing. So we opened rapid fire on them, which is the only sort of truce they deserve.” [11]

But inducing men who had become friends to kill each other was not such an easy task. Many units on both sides were reluctant to restart the fighting. And even as shooting resumed, apologies and coded messages were being exchanged. On December 30, following an anti-fraternisation order from the German High Command, the following message was relayed by German soldiers to the trenches opposite:

“Dear Camarades, I beg to inform you that it is forbidden us to go out to you, but we will remain your comrades. If we will be forced to fire we will fire too high... Offering you some cigars, I remain, yours truly...” [12]

Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 11:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this an example of anti-imperialism?--Darrelljon 21:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I don’t think most of the troops put it a wide enough context for that to come up. Seano1 22:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The French

What did the French do with the Germans on their part of the line, or say about the behaviour of the British? Jim.henderson 18:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

On the French Wiki, and a few other sites they seemed mostly impartial, considering it 'The ultimate expression of Christian sentiments'. Aurora W 16:01, August 7th 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.25.205.182 (talk)

Another song reference

The Farm's All Together Now [1] is about the Christmas Day Truce.

--Schmackdown 14:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Recent article on letter about truce auctioned

I thought someone might want to incorporate information from this [2] into this article. I am a little too busy to do it right now. Remember 17:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The link above no longer works but it strikes me if this section is going to use one Christmas Truce letter as an example or first-hand account there are many better ones than the Chris De Burgh letter (which is probably only famous because of the inflated auction price!). Truce letters frequently come up for auction but the research by our volunteers ([3]) details dozens of truce letters. My suggestion would be a letter by one Private Heath [4] which, as well as being beautifully written, details the truce from start to finish. Misterbus (talk) 21:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The Selfish Gene - Book Link Reappearing

Someone, keeps entering what appears to be an advert, but which is most certainly an offtopic link, to a book called "The Selfish Gene", this has no reference to the text, and no contextual content contributing to the article.

I have removed the link, and now had to undo a revision putting that reference back in.

Xelous —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xelous (talk • contribs) 17:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it should be a citation, because its the source for the "informal armistice" section. It used to be a citation, but somehow it got uncited. No, not an advert, its a pretty famous book, I doubt Richard Dawkins or his publishers are spending time on wikipedia plugging the book. I would cite it, but I havn't edited in a while and I forget how to do a proper cite. Brentt (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Wiki for the Blind

I am 19 years old and blind. I am interested in adding relevant items to wiki that help the blind "visualize" and grasp the subjects at hand. I love the tradition of oral storytelling. I have added a link to a radio story by The American Storyteller. --Trgwilson (talk) 16:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Other instances of WWI Fraternization?

I haven't yet had a chance to investigate it, further, but judging from the documentary material included with Joyeux Noel, there seems to be evidence of quite a bit of fraternization during 1914 and early 1915, and not just on Christmas, specifically of 1914. I can't seem to find any mention on Wikipedia, however, of any events other than the Christmas '14 ones. Should this article be a more general article about WWI fraternization, and not just about the Christmas Truce? -- ABPend 07:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Well my para re the French-German Christmas truce of 1915 from Richard Schirrmann has been obliterated, so I shall have to put it back! Hugo999 (talk) 07:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Not much on 1914 British-German truce?

Was there more and it's been delieted?? Oliver098 (talk) 17:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)we pray for kassadie bergin x

Cuxhaven Raid

This is linked in the "see also", but I don't understand the relevance: it wasn't a truce but an early seaplane bombing raid. I'm inclined to delete. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I am presently reworking the page and, separately, I came to the same conclusion. I have removed it. Bridgeplayer (talk) 20:37, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Legacy

This section certainly seems over-long and giving undue weight. However, it is also mostly unsourced and some of the connections are speculative. I should welcome views on how best to tackle it. Bridgeplayer (talk) 02:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I have now rewritten the section. The length has been reduced to avoid undue weight. I have taken out the works that claimed to be influenced by the truce, a rather intangible concept. I have included those works that both recount the truce and can be sourced. Bridgeplayer (talk) 21:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Possibly fraudulent source

It is my understanding that Stanley Weintraub's Silent Night: The Story of the World War I Christmas Truce contains fictional accounts of the event (taken from stories and plays) and presents them as factual accounts alongside genuine accounts of the event. I don't have any references on this at the moment, which is why i haven't edited the article, but something to look into. 75.71.202.154 (talk) 10:30, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(late, but it's worth noting anyway) It doesn't present them as factual - they are indicated as being taken from fictional sources - but it is a bit confusingly laid out in places, coming back to sources which have been discussed already without explaining them clearly, and if you've forgotten the names involved it's possible to misread some fictional passages as being real. Editorially shaky enough to mean you need to stay alert and double-check, but I wouldn't say fraudulent.

Just to confuse matters a bit, there's the additional problem that some of these are "fictionalised" accounts - people who were present but later wrote about it in a disguised way, which could be a matter of an entirely invented story, or could just be a matter of changing the name of the protagonist. As a result, they're definitely worth including. Shimgray | talk | 02:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Canadian soldier and the Christmas truss

exert front articileWar Time Truss by Randy Boswell of the Postmedia News

A Canadian soldier from Vimy Ridge in a letter home confirmed that: "We had a truss on Christmas day and our german friends were quiet friendly. They came over and we traded bully beef for cigars." Four months later the soldier was killed at the major battle of Vimy Ridge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.180.241.34 (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite

I've started a fairly comprehensive expansion, drawing mainly on Weintraub (which is a bit patchy) and Brown (which is very interesting). I'm about to pack up for the night, but there's a new lead, and the "public awareness"/"later truces" sections are mostly new. Things I'm hoping to get done tomorrow:

• a discussion of the "live and let live" approach to trench warfare, which had begun to spread by this point (and is quite key to the post-14 truces).
• a much more detailed discussion of Christmas 1914, bringing in the wide variability of it (some sectors fraternised, some had a sort of armed truce, some just continued sporadic fighting) and the French participation (as well as, unexpectedly, the Indian participation)
• something on the return to "normality" in early 1915 - how was the truce ended? tacitly or explicitly?
• find somewhere to add in the "Prussian" aspect - the way that German troops seemed much happier to fraternise when Saxons, Bavarians, etc.
• the historiography of the truce, and the different ways British and French historians and folk memory have treated it
• some specific notes on non-Western Front "holiday" truces

The main shift is to try and emphasise that "the Truce" as an identifiable specific event is much more a thing of 1914 than it was of 1915, which seems to be the way the historians deal with it. There were truces at Christmas in later years, but with a few small exceptions they fitted well into the established the live-and-let-live pattern, and so weren't seen as being as remarkable or as memorable. Thoughts? Shimgray | talk | 02:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

...and for all the confident statements above, I promptly got snowed under with work this week (as well as literally snowed under!). I've removed the expansion tags etc for the time being, since I've not been able to work on it as actively as planned, but I've made some notes and I'll aim to keep working on it as I can get the time. Shimgray | talk | 01:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Picture

Can anyone find a picture of the footbal game in action? I remember hearing from the History Channel that an english newspaper published an article about it and took some pictures. Im sure they are in the Public Domain now, and would spruce up the article. --ThrashedParanoid 00:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

If you can find a genuine picture of an actual football game in action you'd be doing a major service to historians, but there's no concrete evidence that such games ever took place.69.243.28.102 (talk) 04:43, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

One more song reference

A Rotterdam November has a song '1914' about the Christmas Day Truce. I don't know how to add it to the article site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.48.8 (talk) 16:27, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Christmas Truce Film

When in Australia a couple of years ago I saw a film on this Christmas Truce in a private performance in Perth/WA. It was quite a good film with professional actors on the event with some fictional elements of a love story added. One mistake was noted when a British catholic priest in the film celebrates a mass attended by soldiers from both sides. He says "nomine patris et filii et spiritus sanctus" which should be "... spiritus sancti". Strangely I never heard of this moving film back in Europe. Does anyone know what happened to it? Ontologix (talk) 15:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Scottish soldiers

I once heard that in some areas certain Scottish regiments opened fire on Germans because they weren't familiar with Christmas as a holiday (it wasn't a public holiday in Scotland until late 20th C). Does anyone have any info on this? (79.190.69.142 (talk) 19:16, 25 December 2011 (UTC))

Wrong. Christmas was a public holiday at least after WW II. what you refer to must have been around 1900. Ontologix (talk) 15:02, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

After the Truces

Many times after the Christmas truces and similar events, since the soilders were often reluctant to restart the fighting and formed commradery higher ups would occasionally make the decision to move the soilders to different parts of the front or to shift them towards the rear. This was intended to seperate them from those they befriended and hopefully return them to thier previous fighting condition. Lupin da 3rd 06:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have heard this but never found hard evidence. Do you have any sources for this? Bookgrrl ^holler/lookee here 22:04, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Redirects

I created a couple of redirects to this article, "Christmas armistice" and "Christmas ceasefire". "Armistice", "ceasefire" and "truce" are all synonymous with each other and the former two are often used to refer to the events of Christmas 1914.Levelledout (talk) 19:55, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Time for a rebuild

I know I said I'd do this four years ago, but the anniversary is upon us and I should actually get around to it :-). This article is very disjointed - it repeats itself, it contradicts itself in places, it's full of lengthy quotes from eyewitnesses which could be cut down, and it rambles. It's probably twice as long as it should be. It also tends towards the myth of exceptionalism - Christmas Was Special - and doesn't fully reflect that truces were not uncommon.

Proposed restructure:

Background

Fraternisation - explain origins of fraternisation, some early examples - now rewritten and elongated, removing the enormous footnoted quotes (no page numbers given for these!). Todo: this unsourced passage is an interesting "medium-scale" fraternisation by ~18 men of 2/Essex on 11 December which might be worth a passing mention if there's a source.

Lead-up to Christmas - peace overtures, etc

Christmas 1914

What actually happened (on the day and immediately afterwards, including the "long truces" in some sectors

Discussion of the (contested) football match(es)

Public awareness

Contemporary reactions

Later truces

Notes on later Christmas/"significant date" truces

Legacy

Modern views, belief it was a myth, symbolic nature, etc

In pupular culture

If we absolutely must (but these sections are generally unmanageable on an article like this)

Thoughts? Andrew Gray (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds sensible. A further observation: I'm sure it's an entirely worthwhile project, but the "Education" section seems to be devoted to a particular initiative by an extra-curricular body at a single university, and I'm not convinced it's notable, and it smacks a little of promotion (and was added by a single-purpose account). I almost removed it when I did some tidying recently, but I'd welcome other opinions. A short mention might be justifiable as an indication that the events continue to resonate 100 years on, and if there are other educational initiatives it might be salvageable. Dave.Dunford (talk) 00:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Non-English references to the events?

Just wondering, aside from Joyeux Noel, are there any more non-english references or items that commemorate it? Or is it's importance/symbolism mainly a british/allies thing? 86.7.62.168 (talk) 19:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

File:Illustrated London News - Christmas Truce 1914.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Illustrated London News - Christmas Truce 1914.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 25, 2014. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2014-12-25. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:30, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Picture of the day

The Christmas truce was a series of unofficial truces between British and German forces which occurred along the Western Front of World War I around Christmas 1914. In the week leading up to Christmas, soldiers exchanged seasonal greetings and songs between their trenches. On Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, many soldiers from both sides independently ventured into "no man's land" between the lines. There they mingled, exchanged food and souvenirs, and on several occasions held joint burial ceremonies and carol-singing. Troops from both sides were also friendly enough to play games of football with one another.

Although fighting continued to take place in some places, the truce is often considered a symbolic moment of peace and humanity amidst one of the most violent events of human history. However, the high commanders on both sides saw it as insubordination, and it was not repeated after 1914.Illustration: A. C. Michael, The Illustrated London News

Opposition from higher ranks

I have read recently (sorry, can't recall where) that there was no opposition at the time to the Christmas Truce from higher ranks; indeed that it was encouraged as an aid to morale. Obviously, if true, this attitude changed later - the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4123107.stm) states that it was the advent of gas attacks that changed attitudes. However, I think the statements in the text that the truce was opposed at the time by higher ranks needs to be supported.

Later

I've found a bit more information at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1998/10/98/world_war_i/197627.stm where it specifically states that while some generals opposed the truce, others felt it was a good thing.

Generalmajor Crown Prince Wilhelm

At least the German CO General of the 5th Army was supportive of it. A German Wikipedia Article about Quotes his memoirs http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Christmas_(Film)#Hintergrund "Er berichtete mir nächsten Tages, daß einzelne Franzosen auf ihre Brustwehren geklettert wären und so lange Beifall geklatscht hätten, bis er noch eine Zugabe hinzufügte. Hier hatte das Weihnachtslied mitten im bitteren Ernst des heimtückischen Grabenkrieges ein Wunder gewirkt und von Mensch zu Mensch eine Brücke geschlagen" My english is to bad to proper Translate it but its discribed by him as a miracle and an act of humanity. But the German Supreme Army Command wasnt happy about this Events and toke Actions against such Events.--46.59.136.192 (talk) 11:24, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Just came across your article yesterday. The German translates as: "Next day he reported to me that individual Frenchmen would have been clambering over their defence bulwarks and would have applauded for a long time until he even added an encore. Here, in the midst of the bitter seriousness of malicious trench warfare, a Christmas carol had worked wonders and laid down a bridge from man to man." The first sentence is in the imperfect subjunctive thus implies that his is NOT an eyewitness report but is culled from material reported to him. 124.148.99.34 (talk) 05:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Brigadier-General Walter Congreve

I have added, with citation to newspaper report, that a recently published letter from Walter Congreve, then commanding British 18th Infantry Brigade, which he wrote on Christmas Day of 1914 from reports from subordinates, recounts how the Germans initiated and his own men responded by meeting up in no man's land. He also admits his reluctance to join in the scene and witness the truce for fear of being a desirable enemy sniper target - reasonable, given his position and possibly visible VC ribbon from Boer War.Cloptonson (talk) 09:48, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Illustrated London News Picture.

This picture is an artist's impression. It looks like one, and the ILN describes it in the caption as "our drawing." There is no indication that the artist was present when the truces took place. The contrast between the somewhat idealised drawing and the known photographs of the events is considerable. It occurs to me that at the very least it should be made clear that the image is an artist's impression. I would actually remove it altogether and replace it with a contemporary photograph. Hengistmate (talk) 08:19, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Fraternization? Fraternisation?

I've noticed that the spelling varies throughout the article. I know they both work, but I think it'd be better if the spelling was uniform. Should this be changed?

Additionally, the article on "Fraternization" is "Fraternization" spelled with a "z".

Martin Jee 06:17, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bestmj33001 (talk • contribs)

Yes, the article should be consistent within itself. But it doesn't need to be consistent with other articles, see WP:ENGVAR. The main topic of the article is incidents in a European war, in which the US was at the time neutral (they entered in 1917), so probably the "s" is appropriate. Andrewa (talk) 20:03, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

In popular culture

Ken Follet’s Fall of Giants describes such an event.

There are probably many other such references. We should have a section on these. Andrewa (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

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French Lieutenant Johannes Niemann

With reference to the Christmas truce there is a certain Johannes Niemann mentioned here https://simonjoneshistorian.com/2015/01/06/understanding-the-1914-christmas-truce/ then lieutenant in the 133th Saxon infantry Regiment, which means that he must have been German, not French. Moreover Johannes Niemann is a distinctively German name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.6.16.93 (talk) 10:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Football games

I edited the first paragraph's sentence relating to the occurrence of football games between German and Allied soldiers in no-man's land. As common and uplifting as the story is, it is not supported by historic evidence. Serotrance (talk) 08:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

The link for Mike Dash's statements in this section of the article (actual title Football matches) all lead to the 'Subscribe' page of the Smithsonian magazine website, rather than anything Mike Dash is on record as saying. Can anyone provide a working link?Robocon1 (talk) 15:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Who won the football game?? Kallner1 (talk) 09:56, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

There may have been the odd kickabout of a bully beef tin; but the first reference to any match does not occur until the late 1920s. The Winter of 14/15 was the coldest for many years and the ground of no-mans land was unlikely to be smooth. Such a surface, when frozen, is hardly conducive to a match. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:F01C:1D01:4DA5:109C:C67A:5669 (talk) 13:43, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

site of 1914 truce

The article says the first truce began, quote, "in the region of Ypres, Belgium and particularly in Saint-Yvon...." Has anyone ever been able to locate the exact site? If so, are there any monuments there? Elsquared (talk) 02:13, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Truces, Xmas 1915.

"Soldiers were no longer amenable to truce by 1916. The war had become increasingly bitter after devastating human losses suffered during the battles of the Somme and Verdun and the use of poison gas." In the text, the "editor" refers to the truce(s) of 1915, before the battles of the Somme and Verdun. Second Ypres, Gallipoli, Zeppelin raids, submarine warfare, and the battle of Loos would be chronologically better examples. Hengistmate (talk) 15:21, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Leave personal opinion out of this page, admin needed

1. There is no historical evidence of a football match taking place 2. The Telegraph provides no evidence for their claim 3. The image the Telegraph (and places like history.com) use is entirely unrelated to this, does not picture German and British soldiers, nor could it have been taken on the front.

If it happened, provide concrete evidence, not an editorial. Else, leave it out of the article. This is quite literally fake history and had permeated on all areas of the internet.

I've seen several people point this out, edit this out, etc all for people with personal opinions on the matter to revert changes. Stop it. 2600:1006:B12B:9859:2C23:29A1:8840:DC5A (talk) 04:38, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Year of the Christmas Truce

When was the Christmas Truce? While it says 1914 at the start, in the section "French-German truce" 1915 is mentioned? Is this about two different truces? I do not have much knowledge on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.13.135 (talk) 14:05, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I thought I heard it was 1916. I cannot remember where. 2A00:23C7:F620:401:D00A:2D5B:C77B:EF0E (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Human attitudes

Stories like this truely do show that even in the worst times there is still goodness in mankind.

merry christmas —thames 16:50, 24 December 2004 (UTC)

Humans are absurd. I still don't know whether to love them because of it or in spite of it, but love them I do. 82.92.119.11 22:21, 24 December 2004 (UTC)

Sounds apocryphal?

'The truce spread to other areas of the lines, and there is a perhaps apocryphal story of a football match between the opposing forces, which ended when the ball struck a strand of barbed wire and deflated. Letters home confirm the score of one game to be 3-2 in favour of Germany.' I think I understand what this means but its a bit confusing. It sounds as if all of the stories are apocyphal at first... Perhaps someone who knows could make it better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dogmatico (usurped) (talk • contribs) 01:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The Ginger Cat

"The film also features a foraging ginger cat adopted as a mascot by both the French and the Germans. The cat existed, and, in real life, it was arrested by the French, convicted of espionage and shot in accordance with military regulations. "It was an era of madmen," says Carion, who filmed this scene -- to the great distress of his extras -- but decided not to include it in case his audience didn't believe it. " http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Soldz1231.htm

Can this be substantiated. I would be an interesting inclusion if it could. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.48.59.18 (talk) 23:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)