Talk:Clandestine church

A fact from Clandestine church appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 1 September 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Catholics in the Dutch Republic were allowed to build clandestine churches as long as they were not visible to Protestants?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/September.

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See nl:schuilkerk Arnoutf (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed rename[edit]

I think that the article name should be moved to Clandestine churches. Reasons are this is an English language encyclopedia. This was a Europe-wide phenomenon so a Dutch name is not really appropriate. and Clandestine churches is the name Kaplan settled on in writing what is the best modern source on the phenomenon. AMuseo (talk) 01:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would not object if it is really the same, propose the change. The Dutch situation may have been slightly special in that the Schuilkerk did not always need to be hidden; it only needed to be unobtrusive. For example the Delft Remonstrant schuilkerk is a small church building (including turret) which can be reached by passing through a coach-gate to an enclosed square. Everybody must have know it was there, but as it was not readily visible. Also the Loosdrecht Remonstrant Schuilkerk was a small church building in the backyard of the preachers house. The house was on the street, and if you look carefully in winter (no leaves) you can see the church from the street (but you have to know). A catholic Schuilkerk near Geldrop was built just one meter into Limburg, allowing the Brabant parish easy access to a church by crossing an unguarded border (basically crossing the border would be entering the church - that close to the border). I am not familiar with the European situation, so I am not sure whether it was common that the location ofv cladnestine churches was always that much public knowledge. Does anyone know Arnoutf (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Clandestine churches were not absolutely secret. They were permitted by the authorities, either de facto or de jure. But, and this is crucial, they weere permitted on the condition that they be discreet, that they not draw attention to themselves. "Secret" churches dis exist, the definition would be that they were not legally tolerated and that a penalty would be imposed if the worshipers were caught. For this reason, they were more likely to consist of something like a temporary altar in an upstairs room, not of an interior space decorated as a church. The small synagogue at Theresienstadt, a decorated interior in a shed in a back garden, would be a secret church. And there are rooms in English houses known to have been used in this way. But, as I said, the clandestine churches were legal, but forced to be invisible or nearly so. part of the confusion, of course, is that as the centuries passed they were increasingly able to come out of the closet.AMuseo (talk) 12:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Xander van Eck, the art historian who has studied the Schuilkerked, also uses clandestine church writing in English. since he and Benjamin J. Kaplan are the leading contemporary scholars of the phenomenon, I will make the move.AMuseo (talk) 12:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder whether you'all understand the literal meaning of "schuil"? Cover, protection, refuge, haven are similes which spring to mind. In a broader sense it may mean housing, accomodation, lodgings. Perhaps the meaning you are seeking lies within the ambit of the word "furtive". But to "schuil" certainly means to take cover, to seek protection [from the weather or from enemies] But hey, its only my home language. Use a good Dutch/English dictionary please. So much rubbish on the net you know. The english [and churches of other countries] were reputed to provide "sanctuary" in time of disputes with royalty. And "sanctuary" is far closer to "schuil" than "clandestine" will ever be! You're welcome! Semperlibre (talk) 22:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yup I was also hesitant about the translation, but apparently similar things occurred outside the Netherlands, and English historians have adopted the term "clandestine church" for this; so this is no translation by a wikipedian but actually verifiable. So we follow the English term even if we think it does not cover the Dutch one.Arnoutf (talk) 18:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Czech examples of the churches of tolerance[edit]

The article mentions churches established after the Patent of Toleration (1781) in Bohemia (and even before in Slovakia). Some examples can be found on the list of Czech ones or absolutely marvelous one in Slovakia is the Lutheran Church in Hronsek

Ceplm (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]