Talk:Cleopatra and Caesar (painting)/GA1

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Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 02:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi, I'll review this. FunkMonk (talk) 02:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "traveled widely throughout the Middle East and visited Egypt, and was known" The last two ands seem a bit clumsy, perhaps just say ", visited Egypt".
    • Done, I think. Please check to see if I made the requested change.[1] Viriditas (talk) 04:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "La Païva, a wealthy courtesan" Perhaps mention nationality, as you do with the other people mentioned?
  • Seems the preparatory sketch would make more sense under development?
  • Are none of the alternate versions mentioned available online? Is this one?[4] Could be interesting to show.
The auction description confirms it is one of the alternate versions, so I have added it to the article. FunkMonk (talk) 03:05, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cleopatra, Julius Caesar, and Apollodorus should be linked at first occurrence in the article body.
    • Done, but linked first in the lead and then at the first occurrence in the body per best practice.[5] Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Caesar is seen by himself" Shown by himself?
  • "derived from a plate depicting a temple" Perhaps interesting to show this plate, if it can be found?
    • Ah, I'm glad you asked that! I spent about four hours searching for it when I originally wrote this article. The entire source (Description de l'Égypte) is online in various places . After pouring through it, I did find several plates that appeared similar, but I had no way to verify it was correct. If I chose one, it would just be original research. On the other hand, I seem to recall that there is additional verifying info, but the problem I ran into was different editions and different page numbers, so after all that time I just gave up. The truth, as they say, is out there! :) Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps French titles such as "Cléopâtre apportée à César dans un tapis" and "Description de l'Égypte " could be translated in parenthesis.
    • Although those are both simple translations (Cleopatra brought to César in a carpet; Description of Egypt) I would prefer to have User:Odysseus1479 make the change. I've pinged him here and I will contact him on his talk page. Viriditas (talk) 04:26, 20 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I baulked at adding the latter because I think the meaning is pretty transparent, even to someone with no French at all—and failing that, the linked article has a translation in the first line. Nor do I think it relevant enough to be worth the clutter (unlike the alternate or erstwhile title of the work itself). No disrespect to the reviewer, nor a strong objection to including it should others think it necessary.—Odysseus1479 01:21, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The work is sometimes known by other titles, such as Cleopatra Before Caesar." Could all alternate titles be listed for comprehensiveness?
  • "was the first to use the word" The first what? Source?
  • Any reason why Cleopatra was depicted topless? Based on any historical evidence?
    • Great question. I remember reading something about this many months ago, so I'll have to review my notes. However, off the top of my head, we know that Gérôme was into painting gratuitous, sensual images of women, either naked or baring their breast. We also know that Shakespeare popularized the theatrical image of Cleopatra holding an asp to her breast in an act of suicide. Gérôme may have also been emphasizing the sexual availability of Cleopatra in the painting, as the image of a woman baring her breasts in this way may have had popular connotations of a seductress of sorts, an historically inaccurate image which apparently was informed by the poet Sextus Propertius who called her a "whore...queen". Additionally, there is some historical evidence that prostitutes of a specific time and place would bare their breasts as a sign of their trade. I'll look through the sources to see if I can find anything, but I think this is simply an example of Gérôme's penchant for soft pornography. Viriditas (talk) 04:08, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If nothing specifically about this painting can be found, perhaps add something about this "pornographic reputation" of the painter for context? FunkMonk (talk) 07:01, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. I'm sure I can find something. Might take me a day or so (if I don't find it right now). For the sake of transparency, there are at least three sources I don't have access to that would greatly help. There don't seem to be any online versions available, just print held by select libraries, so I'm doing the best that I can with limited access. It's really sad that in the year 2015 we still can't access a simple book online. Viriditas (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • All looks good so far. If no alternate titles and info about the nudity can be found, I'll pass this once the French titles are translated. FunkMonk (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you specify what you mean by alternate titles? I'm assuming you mean something like this. Is that correct? Viriditas (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, I was referring to this: "The work is sometimes known by other titles, such as Cleopatra Before Caesar." FunkMonk (talk) 22:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Right, for example Vors 1879. I only mention that in the lead because Cleopatra and Caesar and Cleopatra Before Caesar are the two most notable (and numerous) references to the work (as mentioned in the "Description" section). However, it was exhibited under the name Cléopâtre apportée à César dans un tapis at the Royal Academy of Arts in 1871. Perhaps, then, you wish me to add that name to the lead? Is it important enough to do so? Viriditas (talk) 22:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just in the sentence I quoted, not necessarily in the lead. FunkMonk (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, which brings us full circle. It was exhibited under the name Cléopâtre apportée à César dans un tapis at the Royal Academy of Arts in 1871, however, it is not sometimes known by that title, AFAIK. In other words, the two titles I've found (at least in English) are Cleopatra and Caesar and Cleopatra Before Caesar. As you are well aware, paintings are often exhibited under different titles. Then again, I don't really know if it is sometimes known by the title of Cléopâtre apportée à César dans un tapis in 2015 (IIRC, I don't think it is). This is the reason I've confined it to the exhibition section. Viriditas (talk) 22:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so perhaps that sentence should be modified? It makes it seem as if there is more than one alternate title when you say "other titles" and "such as". FunkMonk (talk) 22:43, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have to go now, but I'll be back later. Since there are only three titles that I know of, perhaps you can figure out a solution and implement it? I don't mind if all three titles appear there or anywhere else. Viriditas (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just those that are not the current title of the article. FunkMonk (talk) 22:47, 21 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See this edit for why I added the current title. Viriditas (talk) 03:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine. So perhaps all that is left is a bit more context about Gérôme's style and reputation? FunkMonk (talk) 16:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC) FunkMonk (talk) 16:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I'm putting something together right now. I should have it done by today or tomorrow. I'll ping you when I'm finished. Viriditas (talk) 21:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@FunkMonk: I've made some changes based on this review (and other comments on the talk page). Please review. Viriditas (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks good to me now, much more comprehensive, so will pass. FunkMonk (talk) 14:33, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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