Talk:Ed Gein/Archive 2

References to Ed Gein in Music

Slayer's song, "Dead Skin Mask" is loosely based on the events of Ed Gein, very obviously when a young girl in the song is screaming "Mr. Gein, I don't want to play any more, LET ME OUT!". I've never done any real Wikipedia editing, so I don't know if this is very relevant or worth putting on the page, but being a Slayer fan, I must add this to your discussion page :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.51.105.151 (talk) 04:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, adding content such as that qualifies as trivia and Wikipedia discourages adding trivia. Gein's impact on popular culture is covered in the article already and starting a listing of songs that mention him is simply trivia. Thanks for asking. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

There are literally hundreds of pop culture references to Ed Gein. That fact should be noted, but only the notable references are encyclopedic. Since Gein never imprisoned a live girl, the Slayer song only uses the name as a convenient hook, and is not a reference to any incident in the actual history. Naaman Brown (talk) 10:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

removed 2020 dec 21

• The heavy metal band Mudvayne wrote a song titled "Nothing to Gein" released on their L.D. 50 album. The lyrics to the song obviously allude to the story of Gein's murders. They also released a music video which shows many images of an old man who looks much like Ed Gein himself.

There are well over a hundred shock rock references to Gein to the point of trivia; they are not all notable or encyclopedic to warrant inclusion in an article about Gein; start a seperate article if you must, and include citation to reliable published sources. Naaman Brown (talk) 10:45, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm only mentioning this as a point of interest, I've noted the much contention on the subject of a "in pop culture" section. But the band Combichrist, a Norwegian aggrotech band, have a song "God Bless" on their album Everybody Hates You which is literally made up of just the listing of various well known killers and the words "God bless". "Edward Gein" is one of the names, naturally. I'm somewhat annoyed at their very American list, as surely Fred and Rose West deserve a mention, being a very odd pair of serial killers (I know that is somewhat of a given, is there such thing as a "normal" serial killer?). Like I said, only saying this here for the hell of it, not suggesting this or any other pop culture reference be added to the actual article. I'm not against such a section on principle though, other articles have such sections, but perhaps in the case of someone like Gein it would just be way too big a list to be worth anything. We've got the important note about him inspiring many well known fictional characters like Norman Bates. I was interested to find that he inspired American Horror Story: Asylum's "Bloody Face" too as somehow I didn't realize that. -Lyco499 (talk) 00:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

What do you call what Gein did, when conventional terms are inadequate?

Gein has been described in the article lead paragraph as grave robber or body snatcher but the article on grave robbery refers to robbing graves to steal valuables interred with the dead while the article on body snatching refers to stealing intact corpses for sale as medical cadavers. He was not a conventional grave robber or body snatcher. What Gein did was to steal parts of bodies, skulls and bones to make household artifacts, and skins and scalps to make corsets and wigs as a part of some tranvestic fantasy (the trigger appears to have been the loss of the company of his dead mother and an attempt to replace her absence in the home with bits and pieces of women who reminded him of his mother and ultimate with himself transformed into her image). Even necrophilia appears appears to not cover what Gein did (unless you replace the usual interpretation of -philia as a desire for sexual relations with a desire for asexual companionship). Naaman Brown (talk) 12:15, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, this is an excellent question so I've been looking around to see if I can find anything to show that grave robber/grave robbing would fit in with what he did. At the article Grave robbery I found this in the first paragraph of the North American section, Therefore, their property and burial grounds were not respected and the bodies and artifacts in these locations were often sold or looted.. Also under the section Arrest of this article, the reference says In most cases, the bodies or parts of the bodies were missing. If you read this reference you will see the word used is robbed for the most part. Thoughts? --CrohnieGal^Talk 16:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Grave robbery appears most commonly in ref to the robbery of valuables buried with the dead, and not to robbery of the dead themselves, except in cases of body snatching of cadavers for sale to medical schools. Both cases involve theft for monetary gain. Less commonly there is stealing artifacts for paraphilic fetish or dead bodies for necrophilia. Gein's motivation was more obscure than any of those. Naaman Brown (talk) 09:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

We can't forget what our references call it which is, if memory serves me correctly, grave robber. I can't think of anything else to call it so if you can't find another word/term then how about we stick to what is already used? --CrohnieGal^Talk 10:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

This is why I support the addition to the English language of a phrase myself and a friend coined: "Necro Mugging" which I feel is a much more descriptive term for grave robbing in regard to stealing valuables. But seriously, though neither "grave robbery" or "body snatching" really fits the bill, they're the only terms we have beyond a very general "desecration" which doesn't really fit either. Thankfully the act of disturbing graves to steal body parts for personal use or gratification is rare enough for us not to require a specific term. Though when we have words like "petrichor" it's surprising what is deemed necessary to define with it's own words, but that's a whole different matter. -Lyco499 (talk) 00:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

cannibalism ?

I noticed that this article is in the "American cannibals" category, but except severe corps mutilation, I find no reference of cannibalism in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.235.156.18 (talk) 08:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Based on the text of the article, as well as reading various other sites about him, any references to cannibalism and necrophilia are unproven, though certainly it's a fine line in cases like using skullcaps as soup bowls. --Rob (talk) 03:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what necrophilia means if you don't see that keeping body parts and etc. is clear cut textbook proof of it. I restored that category. DreamGuy (talk) 00:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

You can keep it there, but it doesn't mean he was a cannibal. That information is misleading and someone should edit that out. Thank you.68.156.142.92 (talk) 16:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhFqm9Q-TN0&feature=watch-now-button&wide=1 Second half of the documentary, after Manson, follows Gein. He had sex with corpses, and latter ate the flesh.

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.150.169 (talk) 08:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

If a documentary says so, it must be true eh? And DreamGuy, I think that most people think the word "necrophilia" means sexual interest in corpses, but of course that is only half the meaning. Necrophilia also means obsessive fascination with death or corpses so yes, regardless of any possible sex activity with corpses Gein carried out, he was a necrophiliac. However I would be careful in deeming anything "textbook proof" of something, textbooks by definition are not irrefutable rules that will always be true. -Lyco499 (talk) 01:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Necrophilia and cannibalism are part of the popular lore about Gein (including "entertainment" media like films fictional and "pop doc" lurid crime semi-fiction), but there simply is no positive evidence to prove either cannibalism or necrophilia by Gein: hints, insinuations and implications galore, but no evidence (and the State of Wisconsin, doctors and lawmen, searched hard). Grave robbery, corpse abuse and the murders of Hogan and Worden: undeniable evidence. Judge Robert H. Gollmar presided over the 1968 criminal trial of Ed Gein when he was finally deemed competent to stand trial. He wrote a book "Edward Gein" (Pinnacle 1981) which appears to be a reliable source. Gein was interviewed by Dr. E.F. Schubert 9 Dec and 12 Dec 1957: "He denied any sexual relations with any of these bodies and gave as his reason that 'they smelled too bad'" but Schubert also noted: "Questioning this man requires a great deal of tact because he is extremely suggestible and will almost invariable agree to any leading questions." When Gein arrived at the Wisconsin max security mental hospital, Central State Hospital, the Wechsler test showed Gein's IQ as 99 (100 being average adult). He was not as stupid as he acted at times. Judge Gollmar had several interviews with Gein. Overall, it appears that when confronted with undeniable physical evidence, Gein was forthcoming; in abscence of evidence, Gein seems to have played mind games. Gein told investigators he had never killed a deer: "Stories of Gein's cannibalism sent dozens of people to their doctors suffering from stomach problems after they remembered eating the packages of "venison" given them by Gein." (Gollmar p.80.) However, witnesses noted Gein offered to accept pay to serve as a deer-hunting guide, Gein did own guns, and Gein told the doctors he loved skiing and archery. His "never killed a deer" story may have been his idea of a sick joke on the townspeople he admitted hating. --Naaman Brown (talk) 15:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Not Guilty

"The court does find that on November 16, 1957, the defendant, Edward Gein, was suffering from a mental disease. The court does further find that as a result of this mental disease he lacked substantial capacity to conform his conduct to the requirements of law. The court does, therefore, find the defendant not guilty by reason of insanity. The defendant is, therefore, committed to Central State Hospital for the Insane." -- verdict 14 Nov 1968 rendered by Judge Robert H. Gollmar in the case of State of Wisconsin v Edward Gein. (Judge Robert H. Gollmar, Edward Gein, Pinnacle Books, Windsor Publishing, 3rd ed 1989, p.172.) --Naaman Brown (talk) 16:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits undone

"it says the creator of the franchise that started in 1974 was inspired by a 1988 book)" No, it says the 1988 book and the 1974 TCM were both based in part on the career of Ed Gein and his 1950s crime.

1988 Book: Harris says he based Jame Gumb on Ed Gein (and elements of several other serial killers).

1974 Movie: Tobe Hooper based the character Leatherface and the idea of an isolated rural killer on news reports about Ed Gein especially the home decor from human remains; only the choice of chainsaw as weapon of choice was based on the the hardware store incident.

--Naaman Brown (talk) 01:44, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

TWO victims?

I've read at several sources that there were probably about 12 victims, based on the number of stored bodyparts around Gein's house. Why does the article say only two? --24.21.149.124 (talk) 07:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

• He was only every convicted of two murders. GSMR (talk) 20:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The article only give information about one murder, what about the other one? And were he under suspicion for a greater amount? In that case there should be atleast some info about those somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwertzxcv (talk • contribs) 00:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The other ten or so partial sets of body parts were the result of grave robbery. According to the judge in the case, a sample of the grave sites Gein claimed to have robbed of body parts were exhumed; after a representative sample matched Gein's descriptions, the remaining graves were left un-examined. As often happens in such cases as Gein's, unsolved murders and missing persons cases were reopened to see if Gein could have been involved. Gein was cleared in those cases: it was established he was proven to be elsewhere when the murders occurred or the persons went missing. It appears that Gein started with ten or so grave robberies (easily hidden offenses) and then committed two murders, from desecrating the dead to desecrating the living. Naaman Brown (talk) 10:17, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

>>"it was established he was proven to be elsewhere when the murders occurred or the persons went missing"<< It was not physical alibis that disproved his possible involvement here (RE the murders other than Worden & Hogan), but the results of lie detector testing given to Gein & no physical evidence linking him to them. But the investigators seemed to be intent, first & foremost, to convict Gein & get him institutionalized, which they had enough evidence for with the Worden case, as opposed to investigating much in the way of other possible crimes Gein commited. WQ59B (talk) 16:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC) WQ59B

"In popular culture" American Horror Story

The character of Oliver Thredson or "Bloodyface" from the second season of American Horror Story, "American Horror Story: Asylum", is clearly based on Ed Gein. The character fabricates lamps from human skin as well as bowls from the skulls of his victims. He also skins his victims and uses the skin to make several items. I feel as though this should be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.226.158 (talk) 21:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Not unless you can find a reliable source confirming that the character is based on Gein -- and even then, its notability would be debatable. Please sign your notes with four tildes. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 21:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

According to IMdb listing "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre", The 1990 episode "The Long Road Home" of the fantasy horror series "Friday the The 13th [The Series]" is in homage to this movie.

References

Trial Dates

The incorrect start date for the trial 14 Nov 1968 was introduced by an editor on 06:14 7 Jun 2008 and unchallenged until 16 Jul 2015. The start date was changed to 7 Nov (the date Gein was first present at trial) by IP User 32.218.42.245 on 16 Jul 2015. Good catch.

Presiding Judge Gollmar wrote that the trial of Edward Gein began on November 6, 1968 at 9:00 am. (Judge Robert H. Gollmar, Edward Gein, Chas. Hallberg and Co. (1981), Windsor (1989) 3rd Ed., p.102.) Contemporaneous newspapers reported the start of the trial as the date Ed Gein was first present in court hearing testimony, November 7, 1968.

Either beats the incorrect version that gave the starting date as November 14, actually the date Judge Gollmar ruled on the murder charge. (The sanity hearing was decided November 16 ending the second phase of the trial of Ed Gein.) --Naaman Brown (talk) 17:31, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Is the precise date that notable? I would think, based on content in similar articles, that "November 1968" would be quite adequate. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 17:56, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

The many contemporaneous newspapers accounts of the trial are absolutely consistent about the date the trial started. Both advance articles previewing the trial and accounts of the trial as it occurred state it started on Thursday, November 7. These include accounts by The Wisconsin State Journal (Madison), the Eau Claire Daily Telegram, the Eau Claire Leader, the Oshkosh Daily Northwestern, the Sheboygan Press, the Manitowoc Herald Times, the Janesville Daily Gazette, and the Madison Capital Times, all Wisconsin papers. I haven't checked the out-of-state newspapers. Schechter also says the trial started on Thursday, November 7. It would be hard to understand how they all managed to get it wrong. Gollmar may have been the judge, but he's not God and his book isn't the Bible. 32.218.44.239 (talk) 22:19, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I will state that to me it is very embarrassing that Wikipedia has carried the end date of the trial as the start date for about seven years (7 Jun 2008 to 16 Jul 2015). I will also re-state that to me IP User 32.218.42.245 made a good catch on that error.

I don't recall writing that Gollmar was God, or that his book was the Bible, but I accept him and it as reliable sources on his involvement in the Gein case.

The public part of the murder trial started 7 Nov 1968 when Gein and defense counsel made their first appearance and the prosecution made their opening statement and called their first witness to testify. The popular view of the start of a trial is usually when media and spectators are first present.

There are official steps in the opening of a trial that don't involve prosecution and defense before the court, media and spectators. Judge Gollmar considered that to be 9:00am Wed 6 Nov 1968 when the official part of the trial started with opening business.

I could snark up and declare that contemporary newspaper accounts are not the Bible and Harold Schechter is not YHWH either, but I try to observe WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Hypothetical question: if a dozen newspapers quote as fact a statement from a news agency report on breaking news, how many sources is that, the original report from the news agency, or the dozen copies? --Naaman Brown (talk) 19:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "opening business", but according to all the newspaper accounts (5 independent reliable sources), the trial began on Thursday, November 7. That's the date the prosecution entered its charges. That's the date the the defense entered its plea. That's how and when a trial starts. 32.218.34.162 (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Military service?

Was there ever any reason given for why Henry and Ed didn't serve in World War II? It was unusual for men of their age not to enlist unless they were involved in some valuable war-time service or had considerable family responsibilities. Since there is no place in the article where it mentions that this farm was actually successful (no mention of anyone hired to work at the farm), it's unlikely this was the cause and neither man was married or had children.

I'm just curious if they never tried to enlist (which was considered rather shameful) or if they tried and were turned down. It's just quite a coincidence that Ed had a Nazi-fixation when he didn't even serve in the European front. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 14:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Not every eligible US male enlisted in WWII. And there were those who felt going to war was shameful on religious grounds. There was no reason to expect Ed or Henry to enlist. As far as the draft:

• Ed Gein was born 1906, he would have been 34 at the outbreak of WWII.
• The draft sought young fit conscripts first.
• II-C draft deferrence if you worked in support of agriculture.
• III-A for men with dependent parents, spouse, or children.
• III-C because of dependents plus employment in agriculture.
• III-D because of extreme hardship and privation to dependents.
• Any of the above draft deferrences would have fit Ed or Henry.
• By the time of Gein's mom's death 29 Dec 1945, draft age deferrence was unfit if 26 or over and he was 39.

The answer actually depends on someone remembering Ed or Henry discussing military service, or if they wrote a letter about it, or their draft board records.--Naaman Brown (talk) 02:04, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference between registering to be drafted, being drafted and enlisting. Ed was rejected for eligible service due to the growth over his one eye, deemed to slightly impair his vision. I've not found any evidence of either Henry or Ed having registered; Ed's physical rejection likely disallowed it and perhaps Henry never attempted to. WQ59B (talk) 16:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC) WQ59B

Ed did have to go to Milwaukee for an army physical in 1942 and, as the user above me mentions, he was rejected due to concerns that the small growth over his eye would impair his vision. Henry was exepmt due to his age; Ed was just barely young enough to be drafted. 2601:18B:8000:3158:188F:C4F7:ADFB:A927 (talk) 21:33, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Henry may have been just over the age to be drafted, but he should have still registered. I have relatives that registered in their 50s and 60s for WW2. WQ59B (talk) 03:28, 14 October 2016 (UTC) WQ59B

Citations needed?

I have only read a little bit and I can already tell that most of this made up. The section label "Childhood" need good information

not made up things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.239.62 (talk) 01:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That's an unfounded accusation. The article needs more citations, but it is all taken from valid and reliable sources. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey gang -

Everyone gets Ed's birthday wrong - he was CHRISTENED on August 27, 1906, not born. His actual birthdate is: August 8th. Here is proof, and I have more from the actual court transcripts published in out-of-print books that I own, in which Ed states his correct birthday as August 8. If you need additional info, contact Greg Vadimsky at greg@gregvadimsky.com

Dear Charles Montaldo: You need to correct an error. In your review of Ed Gein the Wisconsin’s ghoul you list his birthday as Aughust 27, 1906. This date is incorrect. In 1974 after viewing the movie The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I was curious to find if this movie was true or not. After some lenghty research I finally made contact with Judge Robert H. Gollmar from Wisconsin. In 1981 Judge Gollmar who presided over Ed Gein’s trial…tried to have a book published about this case, but an injuction was placed against the book by a legal action brought upon him by the people of Plainfield. Judge Gollmar was nice enough to put me in touch with the publisher who was nice enough to sell me an original hardcover book by Judge Golldmar “Edward Gein”, America’s Most Bizarre Murderer. The judge also sent me a book the he had published before, pertaining to unusual and funny cases he had presided over in the very rural Wisconsin. Years later a new book “Deviant” by Harold Schechter came out about Ed Gein. In this second book, Ed Gein’s birtthday was listed as August 27, 1906…while in Judge Gollmar’s book it is listed as August 08, 1906. I spoke to Judge Gollmar about it. His response was pure and simple. The court transcript during Ed Gein’s trial reveals that his true birthday was the 08 of August 1906. Judge Gollmar explained that way back then, in most rural very small village, a birth certificate was issued by the church when the infant got baptized and not when he was born. Ed Gein was born on August the 8th and was baptized on the 27th 1906. Ed Gein and his parents knew very well the date he was born, for having celebrated his birthday on the 08, throughout his life. And during his trial when he was asked on what date he was born, Ed Gein correctly answered August the 8th, 1906. The date in Judge Gollmar’s book is correct. Harold Schechter based his date of birth of August 27th, 1906 on the day of baptismal…which is incorrect. Due a bit of detective work Mr. Montaldo and you will see that Judge Gollmar was right. You, him, and me might be the very few who know the truth on Gein’s true day of birth. Steven Book-Lover / Librophile@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.102.108.20 (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Ed wasn't born in a "rural very small village" but in the city of La Crosse. I've seen a copy of the birth record that states Ed was born 11 PM on Aug 27th. Ed was particularly bad with dates. Even his SS application stated his DOB was Aug 28th, and he frequently got dates wrong or changed them in the interview sessions. WQ59B (talk) 03:42, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Last name pronunciation

My father was born in 1947. He lived in Plainfield, Wisconsin on a farm as a child when the authorities were looking for Ed Gein. Ed Gein's last name is pronounced "guyne" like guy, as in that's an unusual guy, and -ne like that "n" in the word "no." I was told this by my father as him and I watched the Ed Gein (2000) fictional movie. If anyone can prove me wrong, go for it. However, I'd expect some passed down knowledge from an individual who came from Plainfield, Wisconsin. Cyberman (talk) 08:35, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

While most folks expect a Germanic looking name like "Gein" with an "ei" to be pronounced like the English long "i" as "Gyn" (the pronounciation I assumed for years from reading about the case starting with lurid detective magazines in the late 1950s), it does appear from sources that claim to know that the Ed Gein family used the English long "e" as "Geen" (which admitttedly is counter intuitive if you know even a little German). --Naaman Brown (talk) 11:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Who or what were these sources, and was there any voice recorded documentation or written information from such sources on pronunciation? Cyberman (talk) 11:03, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I was able to get in contact with my father again about this situation. The last name is pronounced to rhyme with spleen. My apologies for my former discussion of pronunciation. I have read on the Internet that this is often questioned by many individuals. Cyberman (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

"Who or what were these sources?" Appleton Post-Crescent newspaper, Wisconsin, Jan 24, 1968, at Ed's sanity hearing... the man himself :: http://www.weavils.com/edpc4.jpg Also may be prudent to take into consideration that George changed his surname to 'Gein' and as such, may have decided to pronounce it the way he chose. WQ59B (talk) 03:33, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

“He managed to stammer out an answer when asked about the correct pronunciation of his name—“Some people say ‘Gine,’ but we—I—always said ‘Geen.’ It’s about half-and-half. I don’t know.”

Excerpt From: Schechter, Harold. “Deviant.” Simon & Schuster, Inc., 2010-05-08T05:00:00+00:00. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Galapogosian (talk • contribs) 05:58, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

"contemplated sex-change surgery"??

"Soon after his mother's death, Gein contemplated sex-change surgery" - This is nonsense. His mother died in 1945; the first male to female sex change surgery in the US didn't happen until 1966. He may have strongly wished he could be a woman, but that's another matter entirely. Sex-change surgery just wasn't on the radar in the late-1940s, so this statement is an anachronism.32.218.34.133 (talk) 19:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

It is a direct quote from the cited source. Verifiability, not truth, and all that. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 20:42, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

The Christine Jorgensen sex change was widely publicized (first publicized sex-change operation on an American 24 Sep 1951). It was hard to escape hearing or reading about it. But the subject was hardly new to 1951 as the Wikipedia article on Jorgenesen points out: "....this type of surgery had previously been performed by pioneering German doctors in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Danish artist Lili Elbe and "Dorchen", both patients of Magnus Hirschfeld at the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft (Institute for Sexual Research) in Berlin, were known recipients of such operations in 1930-31." Gein owned and read medical textbooks on anatomy and it is not hard to believe he knew about sex-change surgery long before an operation was performed in the United States. As I recall one source, Gein contemplated doing it himself. --Naaman Brown (talk) 21:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Both are absurd responses. Perhaps experiments were conducted in other countries in the 1930s, but the Christine Jorgensen case would have been the first one a small-town US resident would have been exposed to. It occurred in 1951, six years after his mother's death, not "[s]oon after his mother's death". It makes no sense to spout the "Verifiability, not truth" dictum when common sense is called for. 32.218.34.133 (talk) 00:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes it's a real challenge to refrain from biting the newcomers, but I'll do my best. Please re-read WP:COMMONSENSE; it does not give you Carte Blanche to ignore all the basic WP guidelines, including WP:VERIFY, WP:RS, WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:CIVIL. Copping an attitude will gain you no allies in this (or any other) discussion. Your opinion—and mine—are unimportant here. What is important here are consensus and sourcing. You have no consensus for removing properly sourced content from the article, nor have you cited any reliable sources to support your contention that the existing sourced content is incorrect. Until you do one of those two things, the content should remain unchanged. Editing is not a competition; we are supposed to be working together to improve the encyclopedia. Make your case -- civilly -- and we will listen, I assure you. Ridiculing responses that you don't agree with will not get it done. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 06:37, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the AnonIP's position (though not tone). If it's a reliable source that states that Gein "contemplated sex-change surgery", and consensus elects to retain it, then I propose we add the line immediately after, (even parenthetically), something like ".... though the first successful sex-change surgery did not occur until 1951 [source]", or we can even paraphrase the original quote, as in "Gein contemplated changing his gender [source]". It may be that the original speaker did not realize the clash in historical dates, or cast his own exaggerated interpretation on Gein's wishes, but I agree that small-town America was very likely not aware of those early experiments, and as media news-saturation was not what it is today, I can believe that many people were unaware of the 1951 case. In sum, whether it's a "reliable source" or not, it is an anachronistic and highly suspect claim. I support some kind of modification. - Boneyard90 (talk) 12:40, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

As I'm sure you know, "very likely" doesn't cut it in the world of verifiable sourcing -- let's see some published evidence. Per a previous note, "Gein owned and read medical textbooks on anatomy and it is not hard to believe he knew about sex-change surgery long before an operation was performed in the United States." Granted, that's equally speculative. The cited source says he "contemplated sex-change surgery". Does anyone have an RS that contradicts that? Obviously I'll abide by consensus. I'll go along with Boneyard's compromise if consensus supports it. I won't go along with a unilateral decision by a newbie IP with an attitude. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 13:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the source by Katherine Ramsalan, I'm having a little trouble accepting it as a "reliable source". There is a bibliography, but no in-line citations. The line used for this article states that Ed Gein "contemplated sex-change surgery so he could become his mother—to literally crawl into her skin." - well which is it? If he was going to have sex-change surgery, to "become his mother", then why would he want to "crawl into her skin" (I take to be the reference to the skin-suits), and if he was literally going to crawl into her skin and act like her, then did he need the surgery? It sounds like the author meant "metaphorically crawl into her skin", not "literally". If the author writes in such a careless, mediocre manner, should we really be accepting her word that Gein was "contemplating" sex-surgery? How does she know what he was contemplating? She doesn't mention any journals or any friend in whom he confided. This sounds more like the author's opinion, and I move that the claim be stricken in accordance with WP:RSOPINION and should be considered in any event a tertiary source, which is discouraged from use, and because of the discussion here, possibly a questionable source, which is "generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties." - Boneyard90 (talk) 21:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's look at this source, which states, "Gein's needs escalated into believing to perfect his desired sex change he would need fresher bodies."[1] Not necessarily the most reliable source; but it lists as the references for the content the Schecter biography and the A&E Biography. It's referenced, but may need some "fleshing out". (Oh, it's a terrible pun, I know.) Doc talk 23:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we just need to dig up some better sources. I'll take a look on my next pilgrimage to NYPL. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 02:17, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

"Verifiability, not truth" doesn't seem sufficient cause to include a highly dubious claim from an otherwise credible source. After all, when quoting a source, we don't include everything the source says, just select bits. So why not de-select this bit that doesn't make much sense, and can't possibly be demonstrated? We're talking about whether or not a criminal recluse had a certain private thought 60 years ago. Nobody knows that answer to that, nobody can. Just because it turns up in an otherwise ok source doesn't obligate wikipedia to mention it. 72.227.98.109 (talk) 05:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I would prefer to see cited a source like an official formal interview with Ed Gein by personnel from state crime lab or from the state hospital during his incarceration. There are long, cautious interviews with Gein from such sources, including Judge Gollmar who presided over the criminal trial and later inteerviewed Gein at the mental hospital. This is one of those cases where the stories that appear in pop culture "true crime stories" get distorted beyond the original factual sources so caution is always a watchword in vetting Gein sources. --Naaman Brown (talk) 09:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with the AnonIP. Just take out the contentious claim. - Boneyard90 (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

>>"We're talking about whether or not a criminal recluse had a certain private thought 60 years ago. Nobody knows that answer to that, nobody can. Just because it turns up in an otherwise ok source doesn't obligate wikipedia to mention it."<<

Very true. Ironically (and unfortunately), the published books that are commonly-sourced here are rife with conjecture. [[WQ59B (talk) 03:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[[User:WQ59B|WQ59BWQ59B (talk) 03:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)]]

• I disagree that it is reasonably contentious. The concept of a surgical sex change was definitely up in the air, and people in small town mid-century America were not so ignorant as you seem to believe. Threadnecromancer (talk) 03:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)Threadnecromancer.

I think a better source would be from recorded police interviews, in which he said since he was a boy he had thought about removing his genitalia. This is printed in The Ed Gein File by John Borowski. I believe he also requested a sex change from his psychiatrist long after his arrest, but I don't immediately have a source on hand for that. Apapat (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Victims

The article as of 18 Dec 2017 states: While Gein did choose victims that resembled his mother, the only difference is the way that they presented themselves went completely against Augusta's views. For example, Mary Hogan was a tavern owner with a nasty mouth, Gein took note of this as well as the amount of disapproval that his mother would have to such rash behavior. The women Gein chose to murder openly went against Augusta's view as to how proper women should act. Killing them satisfied his mother, in some delusional way.

The only living victims Ed Gein has been proven to have murdered were Mary Hogan, a profane tavern keeper, and Bernice Worden, a general store manager and mother of a deputy sheriff.

Only Hogan could be typified as matching the type of woman of whom his mother disapproved. An example of one.

The victims of corpse abuse, the women whose graves Gein robbed, were random local women who reminded Gein of his mother physically. He did not murder them; he robbed their graves after their natural deaths. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 02:24, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Found items

The source provides numerous items which were found in his home:

What they found was a house of horror. Inside, they discovered numerous body parts: four noses, several bone fragments, nine death masks, a heart in a pan on the stove, a bowl made from a skull, ten female heads with the tops sawn off, human skin covering several chair seats, pieces of salted genitalia in a box, skulls on his bedposts, organs in the refrigerator, a pair of lips on a string, and much more. It was estimated that he had mutilated some fifteen women and kept their remains around him.

I'm not sure how many of these items should be listed in the article. Jwesley₇₈ 15:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

One of the "items" found in his home (according to the list) was a shoe-box filed with nine vaginas. However, the word that is used is the word vulvae, and never having learned the word vulvae I clicked on it to see what it was. This brought me to a page with multiple fairly large pictures of human vaginas at the top. Now although I may have seen the word vulvae in a diagram inside of a health class, I believe the fact that I am a senior student in college and had no idea what a vulvae is, means that the word is far too obscure to link to such a page without some kind of warning. On the other hand why not use the word vagina instead? Given that the subject matter isn't scientific, I don't see any reason for using the Latin form of the word. 50.53.87.191 (talk) 07:52, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

The first thing you should understand is that Wikipedia is NOT CENSORED. If a topic or word or image is relevant to the content, then so be it. It can and should be included. The SECOND thing you should realize is that the terms vagina and vulva are NOT synonymous. If you don't know that, you have much to learn. Nothing too over the top, or too scientific, about the term "vulva". You should have just paid a little more attention in that high school health class. - Boneyard90 (talk) 12:07, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

They were clearly vulvas: external female genital areas: the mons veneris, clitoris, labia, and vaginal opening. Ed Gein collected and wore those vulvas in his transvestic fetishist dress up episodes. The closest analogy would be the pussy panties or strap-on dildoes sold by sex toy shops, to cover the external genitalia of one sex with external appearance of the other; they usually don't include internal organs like vagina, uterus, prostate, seminal vesicles. I knew vulva from vagina in junior high school health/biology and Sexology digest at the newstand; it's not rocket science, its sexology. Kraft-Ebbing Psychopathia Sexualis sexology in Gein's case. Wiktionary is our sister project. vulva: "the external female organs ... usage notes: ... calling the vulva the vagina is analogous to calling the lips the mouth or throat"; vagina: "Borrowed from Latin vāgīna ‎(“sheath”‎)" so they're both Latin. --Naaman Brown (talk) 09:31, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Another derived serial killer in fiction

Ed Gein, his motives, and his upbringing also heavily influenced Walter Sullivan, the central character of psychological/survival horror game Silent Hill 4: The Room. Walter is similarly perturbed by the absence of his mother, as well as exposed to fanatical fringe religion (via the local cult). Seeking to "awaken" his mother, he invokes the power of the town through a ritual of the cult that involves killing specific victims by archetype—one of which, a flirtatious woman, fills the role of "Temptation." As it would seem with Gein, Sullivan reasons that "[t]he world is teeming with unnecessary people." Additionally, he can be seen digging exploratively into a C-sectioned corpse's womb with his bare hands, much like Ed Gein exhumed the dead and removed their vulvae and nipples as keepsakes. BlueCaper (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of Brainbombs in pop culture section?

Swedish noise rock band Brainbombs used a famous photo of Gein for the cover art of their most famous album Obey (Brainbombs album). Several contemporary noise rock bands have cited Brainbombs as an influence and they are often regarded highly in rock communities. Do we think this should be included in the pop culture section? -- Shingpau (talk) 04:04, 1 September 2019 (UTC)Shingpau

It may be important in the history of the band, may be trivia in the history of noise rock, but is it really important in the history of Ed Gein that someone used his photo on an album cover? We have lost pop culture sections in other articles when they became overloaded with trivia. -- Naaman Brown 21:46, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Liver cancer or lung cancer?

Intro says he died of liver cancer, later in body lung cancer. Needs correction. I enjoy sandwiches (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Avery Marx inclusion in "Pop Culture"

The video game Shadow Man was a rather important part of late 90s gaming history (it was very recently remastered), and I wanted to add info about Avery Mark. He was one of the game's main antagonists, and is probabily the most notable Ed Gein clone in retro gaming. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.36.13 (talk) 05:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

That may be important in ref to articles on Avery Marx, Shadow Game, or retro gaming. It is clutter in this article. Too much trivia has led to several Wikipedia articles losing their entire "in Pop Culture" sections. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 12:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)