Talk:Edmund Kalau

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A fact from Edmund Kalau appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 13 October 2016 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that after Edmund Kalau (pictured) spent his childhood in the Hitler Youth, he converted to Christianity and served in Palau and Yap in the Liebenzell Mission?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2016/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Edmund Kalau.

Wikipedia

Nice guy, in the end. But, what of it?[edit]

What is so remarkable about this man that he should have a biographical Wikipedia article dedicated to him? Jyg (talk) 02:38, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think his most notable achievement is creating the Pacific Missionary Aviation, which is still in operation today. ^Falling_Gravity 05:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm aware of the general guidelines for notability. The article is primarily one contributor's work based up a handful of mostly short and/or not widely known sources. If that's enough "significant coverage" to float the boat of someone who's passionate about the man, *shrug*, no skin off my back. Figured I'd make a note of it. What's a few more thousand bytes in the grand scheme of the Wikiverse, eh? Actually, the gaping hole in the article for me is knowing whether or not he abandoned the proclivities of his Hitler-driven youth when he became a Christian. I mean, some of the worst anti-semetic rants of Luther were a veritable gospel to the German Christians Movement. I wonder where Kalau stood. To be honest, that consideration is what attracted me toward the article in the first place, only to be disappointed. Jyg (talk) 06:25, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you're interested in his Nazi background, I'd recommend reading this article. It has a little more details, but not that much. ^Falling_Gravity 07:36, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks User:FaillingGravity. Unfortunately that homegrown page doesn't say much regarding my question. It confirms his earlier anti-semitism but does not say anything about his later views or if his conversion to Christianity had an effect on it. My earlier point about the German Christians Movement was to say that it was quite common to freely mix Christianity with anti-semitism in the Nazi German psyche. I still cannot tell which sort of Christin Kalau was. Jyg (talk) 17:14, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most biographies I've read focus on events in his life, so I'll keep my eye out for his personal views. If I find anything more I'll let you know, and probably try to add it to the article. ^Falling_Gravity 17:52, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Questionable bio portions[edit]

Portions of the bio are highly questionable, specifically the period during WW2. The latest that the Luftwaffe conducted missions in "Russia" was 1944, and by that time the Luftwaffe was busy converting many of its formations into Infantry Divisions (Luftwaffe Feld Divisions). It is highly unlikely that a 14/15 year old (which what he would have been at the time) would have been put thru flight training given the increasingly short supply of aviation fuel. Possible, but highly unlikely.

Then the British capture him, but a "Russian" Doctor converts him to Christianity. A Russian (Soviet??) Medical Doctor working in a British POW camp? and evangilizing German prisoners when the official doctrine of the Soviet Union was atheism? I've very sceptical.

The next sentence says that the war ended before he could fight in Europe. At that point he would have been 16 years old. Not sure why this is included, as it directly contridicts him flying combat missions in a ME 109. (Training was done in completely different aircraft).

I'm not saying he is a bad person, just that some of the information here is probably incorrect. Or at the very least needs to be clarified and expanded upon, because the way it reads now leads me to believe that it's mostly not true. comment added by Jmland3 (talk • contribs) 03:24, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As the original writer of most of this article, I thought that some of the sources seemed to contradict each other and I tried to make them fit the best I could. I'll revisit them and try to find what's up. Regarding joining Luftwaffe as a teenager, I'm guessing it refers to Luftwaffenhelfer "child soldiers" who did fly in the war (see [1]). ^Falling_Gravity 05:44, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. While some Hitler youth did receive flight training, it's impossible for someone who was 17 at the war's end to have been a fighter pilot, especially one as experienced as the article implies he was. Either he was at least five years older than reported or his war service has been greatly exaggerated. 62.44.202.10 (talk) 08:52, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sceptical of the reliability of [2] regarding Kalau's early life. --LukeSurl^{t c} 09:44, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This source [3] says Kalau "became a Christian after hearing a Russian doctor named T.H. Moscalkow whilst on a speaking tour ". This seems a lot more plausible than the POW story currently in the article. --LukeSurl^{t c} 09:54, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Jmland3's comment above: Indeed, it certainly could not have been a Soviet doctor on a speaking tour in British POV camp trying to convert the prisoners to Christianity. However, there was a large Russian emigrant community in Europe after the October revolution. The anlglocized spelling of the name Moscalkow suggests that the doctor in question was one of those. Still, I would say that the entire sourcing regarding Kalau's WWII service and conversion to Christianity is pretty weak, has too many contradictions and question marks (the claim that he flew combat missions over Russia in ME-109G as a 16-year old looks somewhat dubious, and the source cited for this claim is fairly weak), and the corresponding info should not have been included in the DYK hook. 173.239.64.2 (talk) 18:35, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and removed the disputed statements and replaced them with a simple statement about Kalau's conversion. --LukeSurl^{t c} 10:05, 14 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Much more better" :) Jmland3 (talk) 20:50, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]