Talk:Ernest Hemingway/GA2
GA Review[edit]
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Reviewer: María (habla conmigo) 12:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I'll be reviewing this article for GA-status. Because of the impressive size and scope of the subject matter, it may take me a few days to complete the review; I'll alert the nominator when I've placed the article on hold for improvements. Thanks for your patience! María (habla conmigo) 12:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
This article is excellent. Seriously, it's one of the best literary bios I've had the pleasure of reading, and I can definitely see it at FAC in the near future. With that in mind, here are some comments/suggestions for improvement that may go above and beyond the GA criteria, but may be helpful to keep in mind further down the road:
- Lead
- Overall, the lead is very good; it gives a detailed summary of the article, including details about Hemingway's career and life.
- During his lifetime he had seven novels, six collections of short stories, and two works of non-fiction published... -- Just a minor quibble, but I think it would read easier if it were "During his lifetime he published seven novels, six collections..." etc.
- Need clarification here. He himself did not publish the works, but I can reword if necessary.
- Hemingway's distinctive writing style characterized by economy and understatement had an enormous influence on 20th-century fiction, as did his apparent life of adventure and the public image he cultivated. -- "characterized by economy and understatement" is an aside, so separate by commas or unspaced em dashes.
- done
- Hemingway produced most of his work between the mid-1920s and the mid-1950s, culminating in his 1954 Nobel Prize in Literature. -- slight confusion here as to what exactly is "culminating"; perhaps reword as "and his career culminated in [his receiving?]..."?
- Reworded but not crazy about it. Will rework again most likely.
- Hemingway's protagonists are typically stoical men who exhibit an ideal described as "grace under pressure"; many of his works are considered classics of American literature. -- These thoughts are seemingly unrelated, which defeats the purpose of the semi-colon. Perhaps move the "classics of American literature" line to its own sentence (which would make it more powerful), and add something else about Hemingway's style? I see that Iceberg Theory is linked earlier in the paragraph, but it's hidden. Again, I'm getting very picky here, but seeing as how this is the very first paragraph in the article, we want it at its best, right? :)
- This is a remnant from the original lead. I'm not good at writing leads and Malleus worked on the version I wrote. I may ask for help again, because I agree here with your assessment. Will see what I can do, but if not satisfactory will ask for help.
- reworded and made iceberg theory more prominent Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- The rest of the lead reads well for me; it's simple, not stylistically overwhelming -- which I have a tendency to do, I admit -- and lists many of Hemingway's notable works, which is what I would look for were I a casual reader. Is it important to note all four of his wives and their particular manners of meeting/marrying/divorcing, however? I would argue that his time spent in the numerous wars, as well as his trips to the Key West and Cuba, would be more important to the understanding of his work. I'm not saying his freaky-toed cats should be mentioned or anything, but seeing as how long the article is, the lead could be a little more detailed, if need be.
- Some of that was edited out per the Peer review. I'm happy to re-add if you think it's necessary. Note: I'm very bad at writing leads, so will most likely leave these issues to the last. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- Early life
- His father, Clarence Edmonds Hemingway, was a physician and his mother, Grace Hall–Hemingway (she hyphenated her last name), a musician, both well-educated and well-respected in the conservative community of Oak Park. -- this gave me pause for several reasons. First, his father was his mother (!) and the seemingly unnecessary explanation that Grace hyphenated her name. I think there should also be a semi-colon after "musician": "; both were well-educated..." etc.
- fixed
- The family owned a summer home called Windemere on Walloon Lake, near Petoskey, Michigan, which they visited during the summers. -- correct me if I'm wrong, but "Windemere" should probably not be in italics according to WP:ITALICS.
- fixed
- His father Clarence instructed him in the outdoor life until depression caused him to become reclusive when Hemingway was about 12-years-old. -- careful with the pronouns: which "him" that was effected by depression is ambiguous at first.
- Not really necessary - removed
- He and his sister Marcelline... -- this kind of comes out of nowhere. How many siblings he had should probably be noted earlier in the section.
- Completely forgot to add the note about the siblings. Now added.
- Beginning in his junior year, Hemingway wrote and edited the "Trapeze" and "Tabula" (the school's newspaper and yearbook), in which he imitated the language of sportswriters, and sometimes used the pen name Ring Lardner, Jr., a nod to his literary hero Ring Lardner of the Chicago Tribune, who used the byline "Line O'Type". -- Long and comma-ey sentence that could probably be broken up. Also, italicize newspapers.
- I've fixed this, but it's a remnant from the article before I worked on it. I'm inclined to delete some of it if you agree.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
TBC... María (habla conmigo) 13:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Wow, I wasn't expecting replies so quickly! In that case, I'll try to finish this sooner than I initially planned. Continuing review below:
- World War I
- Early in 1918, Hemingway responded to a Red Cross recruitment effort and signed on as an ambulance driver. In the spring he returned for a quick trip home, and up to Michigan to fish, before leaving for New York. -- Where was he stationed as an ambulance driver? The first few sentences in this section list, in quick succession, numerous locations -- perhaps work to copy-edit for flow.
- done
- Hemingway spent six months in hospital... -- a British-ism in an article about one of America's finest writers? Outrage! Seriously, though, there are particular editors at FAC who tend to pick on wording and spelling choices if the subject is closely related to a specific nationality; in this case, some would argue that because the guy was a hot blooded American, he would have spent six months in THE hospital. Very, very minor and picky, but FYI -- some people have too much time on their hands. :)
- fixed
- Toronto and Chicago
- There's a tendency, especially in this section, to simply list Hemingway's movements. While noting where he goes and what he does is clearly important, it does not make for brilliant, engaging prose, which is something that WP:WIAFA of course pushes for. When I'm writing bios, I tend to have to remind myself of the importance of explaining why someone did something, and why it matters. Why did he spend so much time fishing and camping with friends, for example? I'm guessing he was going through a healing period, seeking comfort in the outdoors and those who knew him before; perhaps the sources expand upon this? Also, what attracted him to these older women? What were they like? The sources may not have anything to this degree, but these are just examples of what I'm wondering to myself while reading the article. Seek to inject some life into it.
- partially done
- Why the older women? From what I can tell, he was stuck in a hospital with a terrible wound with an attractive night nurse (7 years older). Maybe only coincidence, personality and the war, but that's not verifiable. Apparently Hadley reminded him of Agnes. I've added that. So the short response is: done with this
- Paris
- I of course know who Gertrude Stein and Ezra Pound are, but you may want to introduce them a little more fully here, to better give a sense of how they may have influenced Hemingway. (It seems like quite a leap from one to another!) Other names are thrown around, so additional context would be helpful.
- tried to clarify without adding to the length. If still too terse, let me know.
- I'm still not getting a sense of Hemingway himself, I'm afraid. Did he like Paris? (He must have, since he lived there so long.) Was he proud of The Sun Also Rises? (It was his first novel, so did he say anything to anyone about writing it other than he took more time with it?)
- Added a little. Will expand in the separate article about the book. If not enough, let me know.
- Key West and the Caribbean
- How did he feel about his father's suicide? Is it known?
- developed more
- Hemingway's stature as an American writer was secured. -- How? Why? That reminds me, how did The Sun Also Rises fare?
partiallydone
- Spanish Civil War and World War II
- Hemingway and Martha Gellhorn moved to Cuba in 1939... -- some sort of transition needs to be made before this; one moment they're meeting, and the next they're moving to Cuba together!
- added explanation
- While in Paris he attended a reunion hosted by Sylvia Beach and made up his long-running feud with Gertrude Stein. -- "made up"?
- Fixed.
- Cuba
- Compared to earlier sections, this section in particular sings: I get a sense of Hemingway's pains and frustrations, personally but also as an author. I think the article could definitely use more personal touches that are seen here.
- Added more personal touches
- Back in Cuba, in October 1954 Hemingway received the Nobel Prize in Literature. Politely he mentioned Carl Sandburg and Isak Dinesen, who in his opinion, deserved the prize. The prize money was welcome, he told reporters. -- slightly clumsy writing throughout. He didn't receive the Nobel in Cuba, "he politely mentioned..., and he later told reporters the prize money..."?
- reworded
- Idaho and suicide
- In 1957 he had begun A Moveable Feast, working on it in Cuba and Idaho from 1957 to 1960. -- Two mentions of 1957 is redundant here.
- fixed
- His early passion for bullfighting was renewed in 1959 when he spent the summer in Spain for a series of bullfighting articles he was to write for Life Magazine. -- See, earlier in the article when bullfighting was mentioned, nothing was said of Hemingway's obvious passion for it. Since I've read The Sun Also Rises, this fact is obvious to me, but someone not familiar with the work would wonder why it wasn't mentioned sooner.
- Good point. Added info about his first visit to Spain and his love for bullfighting in the Paris section.
- Alone in Spain, without Mary, Hemingway's mental state disintegrated rapidly. -- how?
- Explained.
- His paranoia became acute and he believed the FBI was actively monitoring his movements. -- related to the above, but this is the first mention of paranoia here; when did it first appear?
partial clarificationclarified- to be resolved later (book returned to the library)
- Clarified.
- Back in Ketchum in the spring of 1961, three months after his initial ECT treatments at the Mayo... -- again, this comes out of left field. When did he receive ECT treatments? These facts are not insignificant, they're important and should not just be mentioned in passing.
- added clarification
- Added to his physical ailments was the additional problem that Hemingway had been a heavy drinker for most of his life. -- I remember earlier in the article it said he went on drinking binges with Joyce, but this could perhaps be stressed a little further. All that drinking they did in The Sun Also Rises? Sheesh.
- not resolved - should be added throughout the biography
- added a few more mentions of drinking. Will add more if you think necessary.
- added one more about drinking to combat pain after the near fatal plane accidents.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Themes
- Is it strange that I think the "Writing style" should come before "themes"? I feel like we jump into such heavy, subjective material without first discussing the concrete facts of Hemingway's writing.
- Furthermore, Fiedler considers the American literary theme of the evil "Dark Woman" vs. the good "Light Woman" to be inverted in Hemingway's fiction. The dark woman (Brett Ashley) is a goddess; the light woman (Margot Macomber) is a murderess. -- A great point, but if I hadn't read the book, I wouldn't know what the names in parentheses meant, or what book they refer to.
- fixed
- No misogyny? No racism?
- Misogny, homophobia and racism added. I intend to write a separate daughter article about the themes with greater expansion of these points. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- flipped the two sections.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Writing style
- The New York Times wrote in 1926 of Hemingway's first novel... -- This is great, and I almost wish it was in the bio, since it proves that Hemingway began his vocation as a novelist with a bang. The proceeding sentence fares well as a lead by itself.
- He explains that Hemingway and other modernists... -- this is the first time in the article that Hemingway's place in the movement (other than his gallivanting around with other modernists) is plainly stated. His effect on Modernism was great, and can be expanded even further.
- This is why it is so important to get more than one set of eyes on a piece of writing! One leaves out the most obvious bits. Added modernism to lead and to Paris section.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:17, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- The quotebox is great, but I'd also love to see examples of Hemingway's work, especially to illustrate his unique style. A couple well known quotes, for example, or even (my favorite) the six-word short story he once penned to prove a point. Such an example wouldn't have to be in quoteboxes, or even in this particular section, but if you're looking for a way to show rather than tell, that would be the way to go.
- Added another box with opening passage from A Farewell to Arms. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
- Reception and legacy
- His books were burned in Berlin in 1933... -- could we get a link here? Nazi book burnings? Also, this sentence stands in stark opposition to the rest of the paragraph, which is extremely positive.
- Done
- Which brings me to... what, no Hemingway criticism? Surely there are feminist literary critics out there who can't stand the man and his fiction. What about contemporary detractors who hated his sparse prose? The Saul Bellow quote comes close, but even that is more playful than critical.
- In looking at the feminist critics, I find that more recent female critics have re-evaluated and see his work as more complex as initially believed, which I've explained. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- added to Reception section
- Misc
- The images look great and appear to be correctly tagged and such (although I admit I'm not an expert in this regard).
- The references are correctly and consistently formatted for the most part. A couple niggles:
- Make sure dates are consistently listed: I see both "Retrieved 8 February 2010" (ref 60) "Retrieved 2009–08–29" (ref 14)
- fixed Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hemingway: the postwar years and the posthumous novels and a couple other sources need proper capitalization
- When I took Stephen Crane to FAC, someone suggested that I include a short list of selected works, with a link to the main, bibliographical article. You may want to consider doing the same here; although of course his major works are listed throughout the article, it's nice to have such a list available for those not willing to wade through everything for one wikilink. This would also remove Ernest Hemingway bibliography from the "See also" section.
- Good idea. Added a few. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Here is how it stands against the criteria:
- Well-written: For the most part; see particular concerns above.
- Factually accurate and verifiable: Yes.
- Broad in its coverage: Yes.
- Neutral: Yes.
- Stable: Yes.
- Illustrated, if possible, by images: Yes.
Okay, in summation: this is obviously a GA. The reason I spent so long on the prose is because I honestly think this is a great article, and could be even greater with some additional work. My final impression is to beg for more, really; while pointing out how often Hemingway went fishing and hunting and sailing does great to hint at the guy's Macho man-lifestyle, tell me, maybe even in his own words, how these activities thrilled him. What moved him? What saddened him? To truly do such a character as Hemingway justice, we almost have to go overboard, don't you think? Others may disagree, and believe that a distanced biography is the way to go, but we're talking Hemingway here. Drama, to say the least. Give them a few extra reasons to keep reading, other than "I have to write a paper on Hemingway due tomorrow and the library is closed, help!"
In short, I'm passing this. Take these comments with numerous grains of salt, and best of luck in expanding and improving. If you have any questions about this review or what-have-you, feel free to contact me. Take care, María (habla conmigo) 20:19, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you very much. The criticism is well received. In my defense, I was trying very hard not to gush about the guy, and to keep the article at a reasonable length. At one point I did have snippets from the books included, but needed to add the themes and writing style section and it was getting much too long. I'll go through and make the changes you suggest. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2010 (UTC)