Talk:Est! Est!! Est!!! di Montefiascone

Very little exported?

I am questioning the statement "with very little Est! Est!! Est!!! di Montefiascone being exported" in the article. When I did a Google shopping search, I found over 50 online wine retailers selling this wine in the United States, including products made by three wineries, Falesco, Bigi and Trappolini. Cullen328 (talk) 02:03, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I don't think Google shopping counts as a reliable source :P I suspect (but this would just be WP:OR) that Hazan's comment of it being rarely seen outside of Italy was probably in the context of proportionality exported compared to local consumption (i.e. that the vast majority of the wine never leaves Italy because it is mostly consumed locally). So while there may be some offerings available, for all we know it may only be a small percentage. The Hazan ref is from the early 80s so it could be outdated. However, several of the sources including Ewing-Mulligan (2001), Saunders (2004) and Vino Italiano (2005) also made note of it being primarily a "tourist wine". But, truth be told, I'm not wedded to the claim and the article certainly wouldn't be harmed with its removal. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:18, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion of criticism by notable wine writers

Wine, as a product, is open to criticism and that criticism is obviously subjective. In order to present our articles in the most WP:NPOV manner possible, we need to include those criticism when they are notable and can be reliably attributed to a source. It is false and misleading to the readers to not include reliably sourced criticisms especially when they are from notable wine writers. Of course we must present all material (criticism or praise) in the most neutral manner we can and I welcome any suggestion on how phrasing or presentation could be improved but a blanket white washing of any criticism from this article is extremely WP:POV. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED because we are not the PR people of wine regions and wineries. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Est! Est!! Est!!! Is a D.O.P. wine so - in general - it is recognized to be a high quality wine. Wine experts cannot express a judgment about those wines they haven't tasted yet. It is false and misleading to present to readers this wine as a bad beverage "in general". In this case being neutral is the thing to be avoided. --Villapuri (talk) 04:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Do we have reason to doubt that Hugh Johnson, Jancis Robinson, Joe Bastianich and David Lynch have ever tried Est! Est!! Est!!! before? It would seem odd that these Master of Wine and internationally recognized wine writers would risk their reputations and credibility in commenting on wines they have never tried over their multi-decade careers. But if you have any reliable sources that can back up that assertion that Johnson, Robinson, Bastianich and Lynch's comments are unfounded than I would certainly not object to those countering points being included as a counter-weight. For Wikipedia, being WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED means fairly and neutrally presenting all sides, including dissent when it can be backed up by reliable sources. It would be "false and misleading" not to tell the readers the whole story, both the good and bad parts of it. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 14:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

A wine is not something like coca-cola, that is always the same inside every bottle you open. You can taste a coca-cola and say without any doubt that what you tasted is and will be always the same everywhere Est! Est!! Est!! is produced following DOC regulation, but every winery makes a different wine. It's for sure that those experts did not taste the Est! Est!! Est!!! wine from all producers, it's not fair to express critics in general. I'm - and I was - asking you to just add some more information about the wine tasted, about the producers, the vinery, that made the product tasted. It's not fair to express criticisms that end up to offend also those producers that wasn't so lucky of being judged by those great experts. I'm available to give you more explanations if needed. Thank you

We can only go as far as the reliable sources take us. Johnson, Robinson, Bastianich and Lynch framed their comments as part of the general overview of the region and did not list each and every producer they visited. They published their comments in notable works, The World Atlas of Wine and Vino Italiano, that are widely seen as reliable sources of information on wine topics. We can't just white wash away the opinions of notable and reliably sourced wine writers because it may offend some of the region's producers. What we can do is look for contrary reliable sources that express a different view and present a more fuller picture. Is there some recent revival in wine quality in the region that has been talked about by other writers and reliable sources? Again, if you have any suggests for other content and reliable sources that we can use then by all means post them here and we'll see what kind of compromise solution we can fashion out. Both myself and other members of the Wine Project have no personal or financial stake in this topic. Our only objective is to have neutral and factual encyclopedic articles on wine topics. Any help you can give us in accomplishing that will be greatly appreciated. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 15:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you are confusing what those wine experts wrote, their entire articles and the whole context (the book), with the usage that someone did of those writings collecting together some excerpts and making new sentences, and producing a new sense. This is a first point to catch. Important and to be kept in mind not just reviewing this article, but always. I don't think that Johnson etc said that the Est! Est!! Est!!! wine is in absolute, in abstract, in general good/bad. I'm quite sure they provided a lot of information about the product they tested. Again, I don't ask to white wash the criticism, I just ask to add more information, cause the cut/paste work produce a much more negative impact in relation to what those experts expressed in their books about some specific bottles. Again, you can be sure you'll obtain the same coca-cola in all the coca-cola factories around the world, but every Est! Est!! Est!!! producer produces a different product. I cannot taste one of those Est! Est!! Est!!! wine an simply infer all other Est! Est!! Est!!! products are the same, or extend my judgment to all others "ex ante". The matter is: the information provided is incomplete or simply the information provided is wrong. It's a metter of logic, not a matter of sources. This is my humble opinion. This explanation is the main help I can give you. I will also try to help providing some different sources--Villapuri (talk) 20:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Here you are, for instance, a source where a very famous wine expert states that a Est! Est!! Est!!! wine is a very good wine: http://www.lucamaroni.com/4DCGI/Rec03_239755 (please note all the details provided about the wine tasted). And maybe there are some other Est! Est!! Est!!! wine's producers still unknown to those experts, but very well known by the others that live the territory of lake Bolsena. Cheers --Villapuri (talk) 22:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Well considering that the quoted texts are from the wine experts themselves, I highly doubt that Johnson, Robinson, Bastianich and Lynch got their own comments and usage out of context. Again, both quotes are taken directly from the text with page and ISBN numbers included that is available for anyone to view. In Wikipedia, we call this verifiability and it is an important pillar precisely because it helps us avoid taking things out of context or adding original research and opinions.

And as I said previously, we are always willing to add more content and information to help present a more complete picture. The link you provided is a good starting point but we actually do need a more general reference that talks about Est! Est!! Est!! as a whole rather than individual wines. I understand your "Coke-cola" analogy but you must understand that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a wine guide and we explicitly don't itemize reviews/criticisms by individual wines and wineries unless both they AND the particular review/criticism are notable. Wikipedia's purpose, as is for any encyclopedia, is merely to provide an overview of a topic based on the coverage that is available by reliable sources. We are not here to tell the readers that "these wines from Est! Est!! Est!! are bad while these wines are good, etc".

But again, if there are reliable sources (ideally in English since this is the English Wikipedia) that talk about the Est! Est!! Est!! region, as a whole or as part of a broader overview of several wines in the region, we can try to find a way to include that as a countering opinion. I've already tweaked the paragraph in the lead to make it more neutral and in anticipation of being able to quote another notable wine writer saying something different or to that effect. We just need to find a good source because for Wikipedia, it is always a matter of sources. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

This is "the dullest" answer ever received :) I will buy the book and then I will add all the proper information. Thank you and regards --Villapuri (talk) 20:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

In the paragraph "Central Italy" - taken from the book 'The World Atlas of Wine we were discussing - the entire period related to Montefiascone is the one that follows here below. "Another hotbed of wine ambition is just over the border in Latium (Lazio to Italians) in Montefiascone, the center of production of what is more usually the dullest white wine with the strangest name in the world: Est! Est!! Est!!!. The Cotarella brothers, one of whom directs the florentine wine house of Antinori, have shown through their Falesco negotiant business that this area can produce sumptuously modern Merlot, even if it has to be sold simply as IGT Lazio". Cotarella brothers produce their version of the Est! Est!! Est!!! wine under the brand Falesco: it's simple to me to infer that authors have expressed their extremely bad opinion tasting the Est! Est!! Est!!! wine produced by Falesco, Anyway, in my humble opinion, it's conceptually wrong to express a judgment about a wine "in general", without giving no information about the wine(s) tasted; by consequence, the info reported into this article should be removed. --Villapuri (talk) 00:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

It is a bit of WP:Original research and WP:SYNTHESIS to assume that in their 30+ years of wine tasting and travel that the only wines that either Jancis Robinson or Hugh Johnson have tasted from Montefiascone were from Falesco. Truthfully, you can't even say that Robinson and Johnson were even talking about Falesco's Est! Est!! Est!!! in particular with their "dullest wine/strangest name" comment since that paragraph is really about their IGT Lazio Merlot. However, I do think we can slip the word "usually" in there since that is from the source. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 00:31, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

"Usually" said by who? Usually said by authors' friends? By authors's mothers?... I don't understand. H. Johnson is creating - supported by Wikipedia - a legend strongest than the original one. --Villapuri (talk) 06:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

References