Talk:Frodo Baggins/Archive 1

Archive 1

Family tree

The family tree at the end should include Bilbo. Meelar 14:55, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Dates in Middle-earth articles should not be linked because they are not in the Gregorian Calendar. Lee M 02:28, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Gollum following Frodo

The story section says: "At about this time, the creature Gollum began to follow them" about the split at Amon Hen. Surely Gollum followed the fellowship long before the split at Amon Hen? He was spotted in Lórien, and I think even in Moria (but that may just be the movie) --ComaVN 17:41, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Gollum is following them from Moria on in both book and film. Gildir, 19 January 2006

I don't like the image in the Infobox

Could somebody change it to a different image, like a scan of an illustrated version of LOTR? I don't really think that readers of the Wikipedia should be able to identify this character with one specific film portrayal. The same goes for all of the LOTR character pages that feature images from Peter Jackson's film trilogy. Remember, this page is supposed to be in connection with the books, not with a film portrayal. It's all right if the Infobox shows listings for the actors who portrayed and voiced the characters (as long as the listings for all film portrayals are mentioned, not just the one adaptation), but the image itself should be unrelated to the films. (Ibaranoff24 02:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC))

Personally I think that with the recent popularity generated by the film this image is quite acceptable. After all, most people's vision of the characters in LOTR is coloured by the films. Gtatler 16:15, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Frodo is not the mayor

Frodo is not the mayor of the Shire. I hope that someone could fix this.

It's a moot point. Sam Gamgee was elected mayor - and re-elected several times - but I think that Frodo did in fact stand in temporarily prior to Sam's election. Gtatler 16:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Frodo did indeed act as Deputy Mayor of the Shire (for about 8 months) while Will Whitfoot recovered from his (involuntary) stay in the {prison of which I can't remember the name -- the ...holes or something}. Vor0nwe 16:21, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

the lockholes created by the ruffians and sharkey a.k.a. saruman.

Infobox LOTR

Edited. Forget this posting - I have found it on template:infobox LOTR - should have thought of that myself before posting. Anyway, it may be useful for others to know as it is such a lovely feature. Gtatler 15:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I notice that several pages re LOTR contain infobox information.

Whereabouts is this templat situated ?

I ask as I am developing a personal Wiki and would like to use such a feature.

Can anyone help ?

Gtatler 15:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

New arrangement of images

I've tried a new arrangement of the images. Does it look OK? Unfortunately, I can't get the text to flow round the gallery, so I think something a bit more advanced is needed. Carcharoth 22:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I threw together something which approximates what you did with the gallery while allowing text to appear alongside the images. Feel free to adjust or revert. --CBDunkerson 01:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've adjusted it slightly, but I'm still not entirely happy with it. I am slightly torn here because the infoboxes do look better with pictures - however it seems wrong to allow the portrayal in one film to appear to be the definitive image. Can anyone think of any way to make the infoboxes looko more interesting without using film pictures?

Another idea I had was to have an infobox summarising all the portrayals information, actors and pictures. This would probably work best across the whole page as a table, rather than a vertical one down the right-hand side. Carcharoth 07:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the image at Maedhros is great and would support the use of similar things (if they can be found) for other characters. Expect holy heck from some film fans though. Any decent 'free use' image should be given precedence. What we really need is a skilled artist to make nice portraits of all the characters and release them into the public domain. :] --CBDunkerson 11:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear - any film screenshots are only "fair use" to illustrate an article? And the artwork of Maedhros - is that "free use", or does the restriction to only use it in the Maedhros article make it something different? Would anyone have time to add something to the notes at Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earth/Images to clarify the different copyright/licensing status of the various images? Carcharoth 13:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

There are various 'fair use' exceptions. The one most commonly invoked with screenshots is that the image is a low resolution still-frame which therefor does not adversely impact sales of the movies themselves and they are included only in articles where they serve a legitimate purpose in illustrating the subject (so... a screenshot of 'Gollum' would be 'fair use' in an article on Gollum or CGI, but not in an article on Apricots). The Maedhros artwork is actually copyrighted material as well, but used 'by permission'... the artist agreed to allow that particular version of the image to be used on that particular page and no other. I'll try to put some annotations on the gallery images. --CBDunkerson 16:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Horse/Pony/Steed

I put a field for both ponies and horses in this new template I am trying, as it would look silly for the field to say "Horse". But on reflection, I'm not so sure that this isn't a rather trivial field, but I'm slowly coming round to the idea of having named horses, weapons, etc. But I still dislike the excessive use of "other names" and "titles", when this is often inappropriate. Carcharoth 07:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Frodo Baggins finances

What did Frodo actually live on? Granted he had a large dwelling (and probably the food grown thereon) - but he would need income from some sources (to employ Sam, acquire clothes and other necessities etc).

(Though the above comment would apply to quite a few characters in quite a few fantasy novels: Aragorn and the Rangers would live off the land and hiring out their skills - Boromir would live off the usual nobility sources etc.)

Jackiespeel 15:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

He lived off of the treasure that Bilbo broght back from Erebor. (Carangil)

Early life

I corrected the Internal Link, previously it linked to a non-existant article, randyclan, rather than Brandyclan. --Njmagnusson 21:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Health after the Quest

I somehow feel that to say that Frodo lost both his mental and physical health after the Quest is harsh. Frodo certainly suffered some kind of disorder, but this was on special dates such as October 6 (anniversary of the stabbing by the Witch-king on Amon Sûl), but I think that to state that he lost his mental health (one would assume that he became insane) is incorrect. On the other hand, his physical health is never mentioned in the books as having, at the very least, declined. He was obviously much thinner (Frodo noted this himself as early as when he was traveling with Aragorn to Rivendell) after he completed the Quest than when he set out from Bag End. I believe, therefore, that this last phrase on the "Commentary" section should be ammended. 02:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

I would like to also suggest that the 'diagnosis' of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder be removed. Given that the literature states that Frodo only exhibited any potential symptoms of PTSD on the anniversary of his wounding at Weathertop, it is fairly clear that Tolkien did not intend Frodo to display any sort of 'post war stress symptoms'-- a condition which he very likely would've been familiar with, given that he was a veteran of World War I (even if the condition wasn't named PTSD at the time). Furthermore, even on the anniversary of the stabbing, Frodo only could be said to exhibit two of the symptoms of PTSD - avoidance and intrusion - which I doubt would be sufficent for a mental health care professional to make a diagnosis of PTSD. (I would not.) Finally, and this is much more of a personal belief, I think that applying a label of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in this situation carries a great risk of potentially trivializing the disorder. PTSD is very often a life-shattering affliction, but someone reading about Frodo's life following the War of the Ring could very easily come to the conclusion that PTSD was a minor issue. 21:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Death

I changed the death from "Fourth Age" to "unknown." He departed to Aman, the land of eternal life, and it is unclear whether he, as a mortal being, would die there or live eternally with the elves. Any guess as to his death is pure speculation. Papercrab 20:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Frodo did not enter Aman. He remained in Tol Eressea and lived there until the end of his natural life. Cush 22:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

How do you know Frodo did not enter Aman, would Gandalf et al not have gone on to Aman as a reward for his loyalty in being the only Istari to keep to his mission? Carl Sixsmith 06:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Gandalf is a Maia and belongs in Aman. Frodo as a mortal cannot come to Aman. Iirr I have read that a long time ago in one of the books of the History of Middle Earth series by C. Tolkien. Cush (talk) 16:39, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

He did not enter Aman, but he and Bilbo were the first (and only, as far as we know) hobbits to enter the Grey Havens, islands, unreachable by Men, to which the elves had been departing for centuries. The reason it has been called the "land of eternal life" was because the elves were immortal unless physically wounded in battle, so yes, Frodo would eventually die. However, I personally believe that Tolkien based the Grey Havens after Heaven, which, according to Christian beliefs, is the land of eternal life. I hope no one takes offense at this comment. I am simply stating my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frodologist (talk • contribs) 02:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Frodo.jpg

Image:Frodo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sexuality

Is Frodo gay? Or is Elijah Wood just a bit of a soft eyed actor? Gaia Octavia Agrippa (talk) 20:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Frodo's sexuality is never mentioned in the books, he takes after his Uncle/Cousin Bilbo in being a lifelong bachelor. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 20:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What does the actor's subjective appearance have to do with the character's sexuality??? Cush (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Nada. Actually, book-Frodo does react very strongly to Goldberry in the house of Tom Bombadil. I don't think there can be any question that Tolkien depicts the character as responsive to female beauty. Possibly more so than Bilbo. ANB (talk) 19:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

None of the characters were homosexuals. You are basing your opinion on the movie, rather than the book, and the outcome of such a decision is never accurate. No, not even the movie, but the loosely based, usually untrue rumors that always surround celebrities/movie stars. The fact that Frodo was a lifelong bachelor can be attributed to the wounds, physical and emotional, that he suffered on his Quest, while Bilbo's similar state was most likely because of his extended ownership of the Ring and, after Gandalf convinced him to pass the Ring to Frodo, his age. Frodologist (talk) 02:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)Frodologist

Date of Death

"he died in March 25, 437 of the Fourth Age."

Is this confirmed, or original research? I don't remember Tolkien saying anything about Frodo's death in any of his books. He says that Frodo will die eventually in one of his letters, sure, but the actual date? Lord Metatron (talk) 03:34, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

It is vandalism. The "editor" involved has been adding random death dates to several ME characters. Elphion (talk) 03:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Tol Eressëa or Valinor

Where did the boat take Frodo and Bilbo, the article says Valinor, but I am sure I've read somewhere that he wen't to Tol Eressëa, being mortal and unable to get to the undying lands. 193.129.101.184 (talk) 06:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, "Valinor" refers both to Aman (The continent, where the Vanyar and the people of the Valar lived) and Tol Eressea (Where most of the Exiled Noldor lived). Tolkien once said something about "no mortal ever entering Aman", and that Fordo and Bilbo went to Tol Eressea, but there's no conclusion to this matter.

Personally, I think its more probable (And according to Tolkien-logic) that he went to Lorien, to be cured of the wounds he suffered as result of his Quest, but that's a theory... --Lord Metatron (talk) 23:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

He and Bilbo departed for the Grey Havens, the island(s) of Elvish refuge, which no Man can find. Honestly, if some of you people would take the time to READ THE BOOKS, you would know that Frodo never sees Lothlorien again, and also that Galadriel, the Lady of Lorien, and Celeborn, her husband, traveled North to the Western shore near the Shire. They then left on the boat, with Frodo, Bilbo, and Gandalf, sailing West. Besides that, Frodo had been told by Elrond that his wounds would never fully heal, even after Elvish medicines had already been used. Also, Lorien was South of the Shire, not West. Frodologist (talk) 02:38, 16 August 2009 (UTC)Frodologist

The Grey Havens are the name for the lands held by Cirdan, where the ships depart for the Isle of Tol Eressëa not Tol Eressëa itself. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 07:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, Celeborn did not leave Middle-earth with Galadriel. He stayed after she left. He was not on the boat, and he did not travel to Grey Havens with her. Elphion (talk) 18:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

And, if you had read more of Tolkien's stuff, you would see that the original place named "Lórien" (no "Loth-") is in Aman, home of the Vala Irmo, who is also called "Lórien" after his dwelling place. -Winterwater (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

If that is what was meant then it should have been made clear, rather than using the generally accepted version of Lorien in Lord of the Rings. Either way it still doesn't stack up there is no evidence that he went to either Lorien Carl Sixsmith (talk) 05:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Most of the info on Frodo seems to follow the movie, rather than the book. The only parts that this page mentions that are specifically from the book is when they save the Shire at the end.Skog16 (talk) 21:10, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

No, the article's synopsis follows the book. Elphion (talk) 02:32, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed changes to infobox

See discussion here. It started as a debate on whether the infobox should be removed from Saruman after a recent GA fail, but has moved on to proposed changes to the M-e character infoboxes to make them less in-universe, as required by Wikipedia's guidelines on writing about fiction. All comments welcome. 4u1e (talk) 05:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Frodo saved by his mithril coat of mail

As far as I can see, Frodo was saved three times by his mithril coat: (1) in Moria (spear), (2) on the Anduin (orc arrow), and finally (3) in the Shire (Saruman's knife). Number two was missing up to now. Evidence: Book 2, Chapter 9 (The Great River), p. 386 (one volume edition):

[...] several arrows whistled over them, and some fell among them. One smote Frodo between the shoulders and he lurched forward with a cry, letting go his paddle. But the arrow fell back, foiled by his hidden coat of mail.

Mecionisd (talk) 17:20, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, good catch. -- Elphion (talk) 18:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Background

I'm a bit unhappy about his section, but am unable to come up with a suitable change.

'Frodo is introduced in The Fellowship of the Ring as the son of Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck. At the age of 12, Frodo lost both his parents in a boating accident, and was taken in by his maternal family, the Brandybuck clan. At 21, Frodo was adopted by Bilbo Baggins, whom he thought of as his uncle (though Frodo was actually his first and second cousin once removed). Bilbo chose Frodo as his adoptive heir, and brought him to live with him at Bag End. The two shared the same birthday (22 September). During the next 12 years, Bilbo taught Frodo much of the Elvish language, and they often shared long walking trips together.'

What I don't like is the double mention of Bilbo adopting Frodo, it doesn't seem to flow quite well. I'm also not keen on all the information in brackets, I think it could be put more in-line with the paragraphs. I've tried reworking it but it always seems to come out poorly, and I'd rather not make the article worse.

I was thinking something like this.

'Frodo is introduced in The Fellowship of the Ring as the adoptive heir of Bilbo Baggins. In "A Long Expected Party" it is revealed that Frodo's parents Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck had been killed in a boating accident when Frodo was 12, he subsequently spent the next 9 years living with his maternal family, the Brandybucks in Brandywine Hall. At the age of 21 he was adopted by his cousin, Bilbo, who brought him to live at Bag End. By coincidence he and Bilbo shared the same birthday, 22nd September. It was Bilbo who introduced the Elvish languages (Middle-earth) to Frodo'

References

Opinions? Carl Sixsmith (talk) 20:53, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks good, I just corrected minor typos. Could we make the ref you have a footnote instead? Glimmer721 ^talk 23:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

We can if I knew how to do that lol. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 06:17, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I found a way to add footnotes and have thus changed the text to your version; see also WP:Footnotes. De728631 (talk) 21:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, looks great! Glimmer721 ^talk 02:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Frodo Last Ring bearer

Frodo was not the last ring bearer, Gollum took the ring from him just before Gollum fell to his death. I made the edit but not sure this fact should even be mentioned in the main short description.

Technically that doesn't qualify as "bearing" it, it's closer to snatching it and falling with it. --Coching (talk) 07:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

What are you basing that on? He was the last person to have the ring, he'd won it in a fight with Frodo and then stepped of the edge. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 08:09, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Some room for improvement.

The article is very elaborate and detailed about the character Frodo. I did notice some broken links, for example "Frodo's Family Tree" (reference 5) and "Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings" (reference 13) . I am unsure how reliable the "Middle Earth Encyclopedia" is as primary reference for the majority of the character description; the novels would have sufficed. However, I am sure the website was created by fans who extensively combed through the works and devised all the relevant information. This website does not cite where it retrieved its information explicitly either. A peculiarity of the information on Frodo was the lack of depth of Frodo's relationship with Bilbo, which does not explain much on how or why Bilbo is referred to as Frodo's uncle. For someone who may not have read the novel but viewed the films would or could be hung up on this. Otherwise, I enjoyed this article on Frodo Baggins. --Lmoorekroll (talk) 09:53, 25 October 2016 (UTC) The article has a decent amount of information in order to get a first time reader or watcher to understand the protagonist, especially for not being a strict fan page or something of the sort. Iphilemonofiii (talk) 06:25, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

References

"One for the Shire!"

Recently I added "of the Shire" to Frodo's race label. This has been deleted without explanation. Surely it does no harm to briefly indicate a "sub-race"? Significant societies of Hobbits lived outside the Shire, e.g. Bree and (formerly) the Gladden Fields. Cheers Jungleboy63 (talk) 07:33, 27 October 2016 (UTC) Jungleboy63 (talk) 07:33, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for those links. I could only open the 3rd; in my view it supports the inclusion of the Shire somewhere in Frodo's information box. The Shire is Frodo's home & a key part of his character. In Frodo's words, "I should like to save the Shire". And it can be done without creating a new label. Jungleboy63 (talk) 12:16, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

(The ref links are from the section above; they have nothing to do with the infobox.) The point here is that the infobox parameter is "race". It is not "everything we know about this character". The fact that Frodo hails from the Shire should be mentioned in the lead; the infobox should be kept short and sweet. -- Elphion (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for your response & explanation. I agree the box should not contain everything (although I maintain that the Shire is a key part of Frodo). On this basis I query the reference to Unfinished Tales in the box; UT doesn't say much new about Frodo, especially compared to other works that are not mentioned in the box: e.g. Letters and The History of the Lord of the Rings. Cheers Jungleboy63 (talk) 01:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

But UT is (principally) a work of fiction, so it's appropriate. Letters is analysis, not stories (e.g., about Frodo), so not appropriate. HOME is rather grey area; as regards Frodo it's mostly older versions of works whose definitive versions are Hobbit and LotR, which should be mentioned instead. -- Elphion (talk) 02:23, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Image

The long-standing practice of the project is to put images from adaptations in the adaptation section, not the character box. --Elphion (talk) 01:40, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Frodo Baggins/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Cerebellum (talk · contribs) 00:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for taking this on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

It seems presumptuous to review an article by someone who has over 200 GA credits. I'm sure you understand the GA criteria better than I do! I'll give what feedback I can though.

Not presumptuous at all: indeed, all alike have fallen short of the glory. Were I (heaven forfend) the Grand Vizier and Chief Technical Officer of Wikipedia, it would still be someone's lot to review my articles; even Homer nods. So, here we are. Thank you for your perceptive comments, which I will action immediately as very necessary. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:50, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• References: When citing Tolkien's writings, I like that you reference the chapter instead of page number, since there are so many different editions the page number wouldn't be very useful.

Yes, my feelings exactly.

• Infobox: The infobox says he appears in Bilbo's Last Song, but that work isn't mentioned in the article text. Might be worth adding to the article. The same goes for The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, they are mentioned in the lead but I didn't see them in "Internal history".

Added Bilbo's Last Song, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales to 'Other Works'.

• Internal history: I think the standard title for a section like this is "Fictional character biography", doesn't really matter though yours gets the point across.

Yes, it's much the same.

• Images: Fair use rationales present. I wish there was a free map of the journey from the Shire to Mordor, the internal history section has a lot of place names of would be hard to follow for someone not familiar with the story. Couldn't find one - although I did notice that many of the Middle Earth maps we have were made by you!

Thanks, yes, I wondered about it. Maybe I can makeI have made something simple for the purpose.

• Reference spotcheck: Checked secondary #2, 9, 13, 15. For #2, the hyperlink didn't take me to the page that talks about The Sea-Bell. I found it by searching the book, but there's no page numbers so I can't be sure that it's on page 208. All the others checked out.

Noted.

No significant issues with this article, it meets all the GA criteria. Pass! --Cerebellum (talk) 03:21, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks.

Past vs. Present tense

I was wondering why this article, which is about a fictional character, is written in the past tense as if he was a real person.

Treybien (talk) 17:42 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Protagonist

Frodo is one of the protagonists, not the protagonist. See Heroism in The Lord of the Rings for more information GimliDotNet (talk) 21:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)