Talk:Hard Skool

I don't believe it's an EP

"Hard Skool" is being re-released as a CD single/EP, with two live B-sides, I don't believe it's intended to be seen as an EP. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I would argue it is an EP. Singles very rarely feature more than two, max three tracks. However, the key factor here is that all publications have referred to the release as an EP. Information like this usually comes from an official press release, indicating that the band organization themselves have referred to the release as an EP.--SilverBullitt (talk) 21:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Here's what I'm trying to say - what is being released in February you can call either a CD single with 3 B-sides or an EP, it doesn't much matter to me. But a studio EP is a mini-album, it's its own thing. If this was combining one or two singles with 2 or three new studio songs, I would agree it would be a studio EP. But taking 2 released songs and combining it with live takes of already released songs is a compilation. I don't mind listing this as a compilation EP, but then you have the fact that usually a significant single should have a separate page from the compilation. Also I wouldn't say "Absurd" is a single "off" of this EP, since it's a compilation. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 21:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I also don't think it is an EP based on the band marketing. GNR Store lists Hard Skool Vinyls, cassettes, and CDs. But the Vinyl only has 2 songs - certainly a single type release. Not a "half an EP". There are tons of CD singles out there with 4 songs on them, often including demos or live tracks like this. Doesn't make it an EP. If we HAD the official press release from the band, then we'd know more. But I think it more likely that Blabbermouth just decided they were gonna call it an EP.DLManiac (talk) 21:33, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I definetly get what both of you are saying. However, it's not uncommon to combine live tracks with new studio recordings on an EP. For example, U2 did so with Wide Awake in America. Also, releasing singles beforehand, even from an EP, is common these days with streaming. Other sites like Loudwire, Rolling Stone, Consequence of Sound and Brave Words also referred to the release as an EP. I will admit that there is some discrepancy regarding the vinyl etc.--SilverBullitt (talk) 21:46, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I think the stronger argument here is NOTABILITY. Hard Skool the song is notable. The CD that is called Hard Skool and contains the song Hard Skool is not notable at this time, whether it be an EP or single. DLManiac (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with that. Even looking at it as an EP, it's a smaller release at this point than the single. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

If sources call it an EP, it's an EP, until or unless the band says explicitly otherwise. Remember, Wikipedia (sometimes obnoxiously) operates on verifiability, not truth.RF23 (talk) 00:40, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

can’t argue with that. That’s why we go back to- is the EP notable or is the song notable. Or are they both notable. If the EP exists I still believe it’s clear that the song is strictly more notable. So instead of arguing whether this is an EP or a single, we should be arguing if the “Hard Skool EP” page should exist. DLManiac (talk) 06:17, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I will back that. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 06:21, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I would back the notability argument. It could very well be argued that the song itself is more notable than the EP. I do have to say that asserting that the release is some kind of compilation holds no water in my book. It in no way fits the criteria of a compilation, since there are only four tracks and only two have been previously released, and those were new singles specifically from this release. If we were to count this as a compilation, then pretty much any EP featuring previosuly released material could be counted as a compilation.--SilverBullitt (talk) 10:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Until the majority of sources change from calling it an EP to calling it something else, Wikipedia should follow the majority and call it an EP. Binksternet (talk) 13:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The compilation argument does hold up, as the new tracks are live, alternate takes. An EP is a mini-album, and like full-length albums there are three kinds - studio, live, and compilation. This one is not all live, so that's out. The other choices are that this is the new studio statement from GNR, or that it's a compilation. But the failure of Wikipedia to label compilation EPs that feature a combination of disparate material has no bearing on this argument - either this is one unified statement, a mini-studio album, or it's a compilation, there is no other option. Calling it an EP implies that this is an unified album. If the unreleased songs were two other new studio tracks I wouldn't be making this argument, but they are live (alternate) takes from previous albums. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 17:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

There are tons of examples of EPs that combine new material with live tracks (Wide Awake in America, The End, Songs from the Underground, Armed and Dangerous) or with previously released songs (Made in America, Queen's First E.P., Long Way from Home). EPs come in all sorts of forms. While you may regard an EP as a sort of "mini-studio album", that's not the only definition as displayed by the aforementioned examples.--SilverBullitt (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Our job here is not to figure out what is the definition of EP. That's the job of the media. We follow the media, who appear to be in agreement that this release is an EP. Binksternet (talk) 18:20, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Every one of those examples is a compilation EP (and some of them, such as The End, are LPs, as they are over 25 minutes), I'm not responsible for how the people who made those pages decided to label them. Otherwise we might as well just start relabeling all studio and compilation LPs "albums", since the studio and compilation distinction doesn't matter. The point is that it's misleading to say that "Absurd" and "Hard Skool" are "off" of something that is not a studio record. But if we're going to vote on the notability issue, I'll agree that's the most important and probably quicker way to resolve this issue. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

With Blabbermouth, Loudwire and Guitar World reporting directly about the EP, you're not going to get traction with the argument that the EP lacks notability. WP:GNG is already satisfied. Binksternet (talk) 18:57, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Moving forward

There have been two suggestions so far on how to settle this, one is to acknowledge "Hard Skool" as the more notable of the two releases and leave the EP re-release to a subsection of the page, another is to label it a compilation record. Some want to leave it as an EP. Rather than keep the above debate going, let's tally the perspectives, and figure out if we need to go to arbitration moving forward from here. Reply below with your stance. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 20:24, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The tally is already in. Both the EP and the single are notable. Both articles can exist. No problem for you to solve here. Binksternet (talk) 01:48, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

This isn't a question of notability, that's beside the point. First of all, there aren't two articles. And secondly, the EP moniker in and of itself, without the compilation designation, isn't satisfactory. The one last solution I can think of is that the EP can remain, but the singles "Absurd" and "Hard Skool" not be noted as "off" of the "Hard Skool EP", which they are not. If we make that change, then there is no conflict. Otherwise, we'll have to figure something out. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 04:00, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

What "isn't satisfactory" about three media sources reporting directly on the EP, and many more saying the song is from an EP? If you try to "figure something out" you will be in violation of WP:No original research.

We can have an article about the song and another article about the EP. Both already satisfy WP:GNG, which is the baseline of all notability. It's not hard to imagine more media attention coming when the EP is actually released, which means that right now we should be planning for two articles. The only thing to figure out is what to name them. The most succinct names are Hard Skool (song) and Hard Skool (EP). This page can be moved to one of those, and the appropriate content split to the other one. Binksternet (talk) 04:33, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Most of the articles I've seen do not say "from the EP", they say that the EP release contains these songs. That's an objectively different, very important distinction. And when I say figure something out, all that means is dispute resolution. I'm not doing any original research, I just want it clear what's being released. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 05:53, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

My suggestion is based of the description on the "Civil War" EP's page, and the writing could go something like this:

"'Hard Skool' is the fourth extended play release by Guns N' Roses, releasing in February 2022. It is named after the song of the same name. The EP is a compilation, included are both their 2021 singles "Hard Skool" and "Absurd", as well as two exclusive live tracks."

All I am suggesting is that this be the leading paragraph, and that "Absurd" and "Hard Skool" not be listed as "from the EP 'Hard Skool'", but rather mention in the body of the text that they appear on the EP "Hard Skool", which I don't believe really goes in the face of the sources. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 06:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a "compilation EP". They're just simply EPs. It doesn't matter if the material has been previously released, it's still just an EP. Even the article on EPs states: "EPs were usually compilations of singles or album samplers". With my earlier examples, you stated that people are labeling EPs wrong. What makes you right and them wrong? No one but you is backing up this "compilation EP" argument. There is no such distinction.--SilverBullitt (talk) 06:26, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Aside from the fact there is such a thing, let's put that aside since we're not going to agree. One can say there's no such thing as studio, live, and compilation LPs. Let's forget that. The point is that if we can agree that EPs are by their nature compilations, then there is no need to oppose removing the language "from". Singles don't come "from" compilation records of any kind. That's why "Civil War" is not listed as a single "from" the "Civil War" EP. If you want to take the compilation language out, be my guest. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 07:13, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

You’re right, we probably won’t find common ground on this, but your recent edit I can get 100% behind. It’s a good compromise in my opinion. Good work.--SilverBullitt (talk) 10:20, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Silver, I agree. I'm perfectly fine with this, and apologies if my tone was brusk any time before. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 20:08, 1 October 2021 (UTC)