Talk:Heaven Upside Down

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Featured articleHeaven Upside Down is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 7, 2020Good article nomineeListed
September 18, 2020Peer reviewReviewed
November 5, 2020Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

On track listing[edit]

It should be better to hide this section with comment tags until the official tracklist's reveal. --Gleb95 (talk) 16:05, 30 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

On Twiggy's participance[edit]

I have to remind this anon (109.151.222.94 aka 185.61.84.37 aka 31.181.240.224), that the album (including the liner notes) is unavailable yet. Moreover, MM mentioned in the KEGL interview that Twiggy's participating on the recording alongside with MM, Bates and Sharone. Gleb95 (talk) 19:45, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I got to LP sleeve scans on Discogs. Twiggy is only given special thanks. Gleb95 (talk) 23:55, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

A lot of these Alt Press sources consist of them editorializing about this Rolling Stone interview, which is already disseminated throughout the article. The Revolver source is already included as well. I've intentionally excluded Newsweek, because it reads like their author is editorializing on one particular aspect of this Guardian interview, which is used in the article, sans the aspect Newsweek chose to elaborate on. That paragraph from The Guardian always felt like Manson editorializing his own career, so I felt it best to avoid adding that info in the first place. Hope this helps explain a few things. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:31, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tattooed in Reverse[edit]

Apparently, "Tattooed in Reverse" was sent to active rock radio stations in the US last week (March 6 to be exact) per this source, and it should make the mainstream rock chart this week. So maybe we can list it as a single now. Daerl (talk) 14:36, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads-up, @Daerl: It's already charted on Mainstream Rock (#35), so I'll add this to the article now, along with some other information that has been made public since the last time this article was edited. Homeostasis07 (talk) 23:28, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Heaven Upside Down/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Aoba47 (talk · contribs) 02:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Picking this up for a review if that is okay with you. Hope you are doing well! Aoba47 (talk) 02:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for reviewing this, @Aoba47:. I was beginning to think no-one would (since it's so much bigger than every other current GA album nomination). I believe I've rectified all your commentary so far. I hope you and all your loved ones stay safe amid this Corona Virus "pandemic". Best regards. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:02, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Longer articles certainly do mean a review would take more time and energy, but I always find it nice to learn about something in-depth as done in a longer article. Thank you for the kind words! Aoba47 (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lead and infobox

  • I would add an introductory phrase for The Pale Emperor in this part, (The record features many of the same musicians who performed on The Pale Emperor,) to clearly define that it was a 2015 Marilyn Manson album. I know it is pretty obvious because of its inclusion in the infobox, but I think it is best to play on the safe side to avoid any potential confusion on the reader's part.
  • I would clarify this link US television series from this part, (Soon after, Manson was himself accused of using inappropriate language while visiting the set of a US television series several years earlier), as it is too much like an Easter egg. I would clearly say the television show's name and the season. Right now, it is not clear what is being referenced until one clicks the link.
  • The "Tattooed in Reverse" article says it is a single, but it is not described as a single in the infobox or lead. Could clarify this for me? One of the two articles has to be incorrect.
  • I would explicitly say somewhere in the article that it was a promotional single as I think that would be helpful. Aoba47 (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is more of a personal preference, but I honestly avoid using the former/the latter due to my own dislike of that wording and Wikipedia:The problem with elegant variation. Would it be possible to avoid "the latter" in this part: (The latter also appeared on Mainstream Rock, making Heaven Upside Down their first studio album since 1998's Mechanical Animals to feature more than one song on that chart.)?
  • I would specify who you mean by "their" in this part: (multiple publications said it continued the creative resurgence which began with their previous release).
  • I would specify who you mean by "the vocalist" in this part: (The vocalist was injured on two occasions during the Heaven Upside Down Tour). I would just use the person's name.
  • I only see the studio name, (Abattoir Studios), explicitly said in the infobox. I would add the studio's name to the body of the article as well to make it clear where this information is being supported by a citation.
  • The name of the studio was previously included on the article in the 'Credits and personnel' section, but this was removed by another user. I've re-added that information to the newly-created 'Background and recording' section, per below. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)
  • Thank you for adding the information back. I'd be interested to know why that information was removed in the first place as it does seem relevant to that section. Aoba47 (talk) 01:05, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, but I can't find the edit where that content was removed. Here's me adding that content in the first place, though. I do remember seeing similar removal of those lines of prose throughout my watchlist, and thinking that those changes were made on the back of a policy update. I'll continue hunting... ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)

I will go through the article section-by-section to insure that I get everything so apologies in advance for the review being slow. Feel free to address my comments as I go. Aoba47 (talk) 03:08, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Background

  • I do not think a majority of the information presented in the first paragraph is necessary for this article. A lot of it is background information on the band and does not appear to be directly relevant to this album. I could possibly understand keeping the part on how Manson and Bates met and worked on The Pale Emperor given that they worked together on this album, but I would cut everything else. If the section is too short, it may be beneficial to combine it with the "Recording" section.
  • I intend on bringing this to FA some day. During the FA review of the band's last album (The Pale Emperor), I was advised to include introductory prose so readers wouldn't need to go browsing other articles to be aware of the band's background. I understand your point though. I hope to bring this to FA some day... maybe when all this Corona Virus stuff has died down. Have happily removed until then. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:02, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the explanation. While reading the rest of the article, I had a better understanding of how this information would be helpful to a reader as it sets up not only the band's history, but also their controversies and I would think it would improve a reader's understanding of the music from this album. It is always interesting to hear about different editor's reviews as it helps me to grow as an editor. I look forward to see this at the FAC in the (hopefully near) future. Aoba47 (talk) 01:10, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, (Manson expressed doubt as to whether Bates would ), I would shorten the phrase "expressed doubt" to just "doubted". The new phrasing could read something like this: (Manson doubted whether Bates would). I've been told by a few off-Wiki editors to not use "expressed X emotion" as it is rather cumbersome.
  • I would use "Manson" instead of "the vocalist" in this part: (that the vocalist threatened Bates on-stage with a box-cutter knife).

Recording

  • I would link Salem (season 3) in this part: (the third season of which featured the vocalist as a recurring cast member).
  • If parts of the album were recorded in Louisiana, then why is only one recording studio included in the infobox? Is there more information about these recording sessions?
  • Unfortunately, Manson has not elaborated on these "sessions"—which leads me to believe that he was merely writing lyrics/recording demo vocals in Louisiana. I've not read anything in any of the sources listing another recording studio. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)
  • Thank you for the clarification. That makes sense to me, and I agree with your assessment. It was most likely a time where they did some collaboration, but most (if not all of the album) was really recorded in the studio mentioned previously. Aoba47 (talk) 01:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part (According to the vocalist, after listening to pre-recorded basslines performed by Bates,), I would replace "the vocalist" with "Manson". I get why you use "the vocalist" to avoid repeating Manson, but it just reads a little off to me. I would honestly try to find ways to avoid using "the vocalist" throughout the article.
  • I would actually remove all instances of "the vocalist" as I find it a rather awkward way to avoid repeating Manson's name. However, it may be better to save this for the future FAC to get more (and possibly different) opinions. Aoba47 (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, except the first paragraph of 'Composition and style'. I didn't think it was a good idea to begin 2 simultaneous paragraphs with "Manson", so I changed it up a bit. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)
  • I do not think the wikilink is necessary here: (Bates sought to incorporate the band's live performances into the album's production). Aoba47 (talk) 21:57, 30 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Composition and style

  • I would remove "being" from this part, (The vocalist initially described Say10 as being a musical departure from The Pale Emperor,), as it is not necessary.
  • I understand why Hugh Warner's death is included in the third paragraph because of its connection with "Saturnalia", but I was honestly quite confused when I first read that part. It seem very random, and by that I mean this rather abrupt sentence: (Manson's father Hugh Warner died on July 7, 2017.). I only really understood its significance after reading further into the paragraph. I would revise this part to make the paragraph a little more cohesive and for readability.
  • I would replace "terminal illness" in this part, (The vocalist was unaware of the severity of his father's terminal illness until two days before he died), with the specific illness if known. It would not only be helpful to be more specific, but the sentence reads a little weird because a terminal illness by its very nature is severe. Aoba47 (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 04:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Release and artwork

  • Everything looks good here.

Images

  • I just wanted to point out that the article currently does not have any images aside from the album cover. Is there a particular reason for it? An image of Tyler Bates could be beneficial in the beginning of the article, possibly the "Recording" section. I'm not recommending you use a lot, but I think one or two would help to keep the reader engaged and can help the reader better keep the people straight while reading through the article. Aoba47 (talk) 21:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree. The problem with illustrating this article has been that the creative commons images uploaded to the likes of Flickr of the band performing on the Heaven Upside Down Tour have been pretty... awful. In an era when it seems like everyone at a concert is holding their phones up in the air, it's ironic that no-one has taken the time to upload a decent quality creative commons image to a usable site. C'est la vie. I'm sure there are decent CC images of Tyler, Twiggy and Juan Alderete from elsewhere, though, so I'll add those tomorrow. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)
  • Thank you for the response. And I guess it is a good sign that everyone was too busy enjoying the live performances to focus on taking high-quality images? Maybe? lol. Either way, this is more of a suggestion than anything so if the images do not fit or work out for any reason, then feel free to let me know. Aoba47 (talk) 01:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm still hunting for CC images. I've given up on finding any usable live performance images, and have decided to focus on finding CC images of the various people involved with the album's recording/promotion. Will hopefully upload the best of what I can find tomorrow. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:59, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries. This was more of a suggestion. If you cannot find anything, then it should be fine. Aoba47 (talk) 04:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Promotion and singles

  • I would remove Final Girl from this part, (which was created by Final Girl director Tyler Shields), and just say "director". It may be his only movie (since he is much more known as a photographer), but I do not think it is necessary to clarify the film's title in the prose, particularly since it is not directly relevant to this article.
  • I have a clarification question for this sentence: (A cover of David Bowie's "Rebel Rebel" was also recorded during the album sessions, and is scheduled to appear on an unspecified soundtrack.) Has there been any more recent news about the "unspecified soundtrack"?
  • Unfortunately not. If ever there was a David Bowie song in need of a Manson cover, it's "Rebel Rebel". It's not been released, and probably never will be, this far out from the initial announcement. Removed. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)
  • How is this sentence, (In February 2018, actress Charlyne Yi accused Manson of using inappropriate language when he visited the set of the final season of television series House.), relevant to this article? It is not really about the album in any way so it seems quite random. If there is a link between this incident and the album, I would clarify it with further context, and if not, then I would remove it.
  • It isn't particularly relevant, but I felt Twiggy's allegation needed to be included (since he was dismissed from the supporting tour), so I thought it a good idea to include Yi's allegation against Manson as well. The two are in different leagues, admittedly. So I've removed the latter. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions)
  • You use "the US" in this part, ("Tattooed in Reverse" was serviced to active rock radio formats in the US on March 6), but previous sentences use "the United States". It is a minor point, but I would be consistent with either one way or the other.
  • Since "lead single" is linked in the lead, I would link it here for consistency. Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Critical reception

  • I have two comments for this sentence: (The record was lauded by numerous publications for being a solid and concise album, such as Classic Rock's sister publication Metal Hammer, who rated it 3.5 stars out of 5.).
    • I would rephrase the beginning to (The record was lauded as a solid and concise album by numerous publications, such as) as the current wording is a little awkward given the placement of "such as" after the "a solid and concise album" phrase.
    • I am uncertain of the value of the star rating in the sentence. I would instance pull a part of the review (not necessarily a quote as it could be paraphrased) to provide an example of how this album was praised for being solid and concise. A 3.5 is a good score out of 5, but I would not refer to as the best or a particularly stellar score so it is a little weird to go from such high praise in the topic sentence to a good score.
  • For this part, (Greg Kennelty of Metal Injection praised the album's consistency, calling it "an impeccably well-written album that constantly introduces new styles and aspects to its sound throughout, all while revolving around a very disquieting core tonality."), I am confused on why the reviewer's name is included in the prose when everywhere else, the publication is name without the reviewer's name. This comment also applies to the Lina Lecaro mention. I get it if he or she was a notable reviewer like Mark Beaumont, but I would stay consistent with the rest of the section.
  • Remove the link for glam rock as it is already linked in a previous section.
  • For this part, (A writer for Spin also criticized its violent lyrical content), I would remove "A writer for" and just say this, (Spin also criticized its violent lyrical content), to be consistent with the rest of the section.
  • Remove the link for punk rock because it is already linked a previous section.
  • I believe Pitchfork should be in italics. Same for Drowned in Sound, and Consequence of Sound in the ratings table/box.
  • Since there is an entire paragraph devoted to the album's more mixed and less than stellar reception, I would include a small part about it in the lead. Aoba47 (talk) 02:02, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the commentary, @Aoba47: there were some things here that I didn't notice while writing. Always beneficial to get another person's feedback. ;) I believe I've fixed all of your prose-related concerns thus far. I did find a partway decent CC image of Tyler Bates, which I'll probably upload tomorrow. But in the meantime, I've posted a thread on a Manson forum asking for decent-quality close-up images of the band during the Heaven Upside Down Tour... or any of the co-headlining tours with Rob Zombie. I'll give people a day or so to respond, and will upload the best of what I find. Hope you're doing well in all this Corona madness. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 23:37, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the message. I will put up my comments about the references tomorrow. Apologies for the delay. Aoba47 (talk) 05:24, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Commercial performance

References

  • Rolling Stone is linked in Reference 11, but not in Reference 1. I'm a little confused by the linking in the citations. Are the websites/publishers linked in each citation or just the first citation? I have a similar question about The Huffington Post, which is not linked in Reference 4, but linked in Reference 84.
  • Reference 2 includes the newspaper (The Morning Call) and its publisher (Tribune Media), but I do not see this being done for the other citations. For consistency, I'd remove Tribune Media from the citation.
  • I have a similar question about the Loudwire citations. References 91 and 104 includes the publisher (Townsquare Media), but other citations do not. I think there needs to be more of a consistency on whether or not the citations include the publication company.

Otherwise, great work with the citations. My primary concerns/questions are about the linking of the websites/publishers and the inclusion of publishers with websites/newspapers. Hope this helps. Aoba47 (talk) 17:22, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the delay, @Aoba47: I've done everything you asked for, but whenever I've tried to edit the page in the last 24 hours, I get a message saying "A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. [Xou3bgpAAL0AAMEsM@IAAACJ] 2020-04-06 23:12:47: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"." I have no idea what any of it means, but am trying to figure out a fix. Hope you're doing well... because I'm not. Grrr. =( Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 23:22, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yay, finally worked. ;) The thread I posted about uploading CC images of the band was a bust, so I'll continue searching elsewhere. Otherwise, I believe I've fixed everything you've brought up. Let me know if there is any more I can do. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:35, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for addressing everything. I will ✓ Pass this. I hope you are doing well. Apologies for the delay. I was under the weather all day yesterday. Aoba47 (talk) 23:18, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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