Talk:Hemu/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Hi! This is Regupathy 13:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC). I have to be clear in one fact. Actually Akbar hessitated to kill Hemu. It was Bairam Khan,who actually killed Hemu. When Bairam Khan asked Akbar to kill Hemu, Akbar just took his sword and kept near the neck of Hemu. He did not killed Hemu. But Bairam Khan did not want Hemu to be excused. So Bairam Khan at once thrushed the head of Hemu and killed him.

Hi this is Ketan Shah. There is no evidence that Hemu betrayed Suris.!Ketanashah 07:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

9th March 2008:-- Hi! This is Sudhir Bhargava. Please find references for the additions on the site HEMU: There are several books which can provide references to what has been written on HEMU site. Some of them are:

1)'Anokha Aarohi'by Mrs. Kranti Trivedi Published by Sulabh Prakashan,Lucknow; This book explains Hemu's family life,Parentage,Haveli in Rewari and many personal details.

2)'Akbar:The Great Mogul',By Vincent A. Smith (Oxford, 1926) This book describes Hemu's wars before he became a Vikramaditya king, how he made changes in administration after winning Delhi, and how he went to war at Panipat and what happened after the war.

3)'Akbarnama'by Sheikh Abul Fazal translated by Dr. Mathura Lal Sharma, published by Kailash Book Sadan;pages 155-156 describes Hemu's army before accession to Delhi,his winning 22 wars,size of his army,and winning of Delhi.His coronation and starting 'Vikramaditya Dynasty'

4)'THE MUGHUL EMPIRE'By Prof. R.C.Majumdar:Appendix (By the Editor)-Himu-A forgotten Hindu Hero,p.100-101,published by Bhartiya Vidya Bhawan. The writer describes Hemu's Delhi victory, his coronation,his relations with Afghans,his starting coins,re-establishing Hindu Vikramaditya Dynasty etc.

5)Aaine Akbari describes many aspects of Hemu's life.

6)'Hemu-Nepolean of Mediavel India' describes Hemu in detail, but wrongly, he calls him a Vaish of Rewari,though he was a Brahman.

There are dozens of books on Hemu.But only AKBARNAMA is considered authantic.That should not be so.Just because Akbar won the 2nd battle of Panipat and Hemu lost his life,entire history was written by Akbar's Men, who wrote Hemu a low-caste Bania, a baqqual, some even wrote him a shudra. That is not true. He was a Brahman and his Haveli in Rewari, shows that he came from a well to do family.First Floor of his Haveli was renovated in 1540-41(as described in book Anokha Aarohi) with Portguese architechture, which can be seen even today i.e.7th March 2008.That tells alot about him.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.128.108 (talk) 15:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC) 

Citation in "Early Life" section

This part seems to be a source of contention, perhaps a citation is in order?

"His father Rai Puran Das was engaged in 'Purohiti', the performing of Hindu religious ceremonies as a profession. Due to the Mughal Rule in India, and persecution of Hindu religious ceremonies by Mughals, 'Purohiti' could not earn much."

I'm not an expert, but with so much deletion and reposting, I would say it needs a citation...Dragonsscout (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I'would like to put an old picture of 'Rai puran Das' father of Hemu on the website, in the portion Early Life. Please advise how to go about it.I can be contacted at —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sudhirkbhargava (talk • contribs) 15:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Hemu v/s Jodha Akbar

I've marked this as POV especially in reference to the following lines:

Indian Hindi film Jodha Akbar has shown the great Hindu king Hemu Vikramaditya shabbily. Director Ashutosh Gowarikar has misused the names from the history to gain commercially from the movie. Salilb (talk) 12:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)Salilb

A particular user with IP 117.198.129.163 and 117.198.129.244 is continuously reverting these changes. Salilb (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Starting of Hindu Vikramaditya Dynasty

I have objections to the following lines that have been added: 1. "His Afghan officers were temporarily reconciled by a liberal distribution of plunder to the ascendancy of an infidel." This has been directly taken from the referred source and the line is an opinion of the author of that source. 2. The last line "after centuries of foreign rule" is not factual, unnecessary and POV to an extent. I think it needs to be removed.

I'm not making any changes since I'd like someone else's opinion on these. Salilb (talk) 07:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd back you up. This article's got insane POV issues. We can't even verify these books that are being used. I'm at a bit of a loss on what to do, to be honest. GlassCobra 08:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm adding this article to the Indian History Wikiproject to involve more people. Salilb (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

My submission to your two objections is as follows:

1) You are right, I have taken it directly from referred source and the citation is given.But I wonder what is abnormal in this sentence,and I may tell you this is not a new addition,it was there some 5 days ago.Two other historians Sir Wolsey Haig and Vincent A. Smith have also written that the reason Afghans kept on supporting Hemu was his libral distribution of plunder to them.The word infidel is used by the writer only,and is mentioned by dozens of historians.

2)Your objection that "after centuries of foreign rule" is not factual,unnecessary and POV to an extent and should be removed,surprises me. Salil ji you are an authority on wikipedia and correct and delete several write-ups from pages, must be having a vast knowledge. But I think this sentence is just OK. My information says that before Hemu ,who acceeded to Delhi throne in 1556,Prithvi Raj Chauhan was the native king who ruled Delhi up to the year 1192,when he was defeated by invader Muhammed Gauri at the second battle of Taraori in present day Haryana.That makes a time lag of more than 350 years when the native ruler could acceed to Delhi's throne.So please advise why it is factually wrong?

Also you said it is unnecessary! I would say that this was a great achievement of Hemu and deserves mention, and achievement like this is precisely the reason why Hemu should have a page on Wikipedia.

You also said here that it is POV. That confuses me on the term POV itself, and what it means on wikipedia. See there are two numbers from history 1192 and 1556. Prithvi Raj Chauhan,who was the native ruler of Delhi was defeated by Muhammed Gauri,an invader, in Battle of Taraori which took place in 1192. From 1192 to 1556 foreign invaders ruled from Delhi.Then in 1556 Hemu,who was native king acceeds to power in Delhi. And so we write that Hemu acceeded to Delhi,after centuries of foreign rule.How come this is a POV,this is a simple fact!

After reading your and Glasscobra's comments I also suggest that this page should be referred to some historians.All the references/citations I have given are from what historians have written.As you mentioned Salilji,that these citations are from biographies,do not hold good. Infact there is nor a single biography on HEMU yet,and one is being written now. So there is no case of unnecessary glorification or perpetuation,but his great accomplishments have to be mentioned.

For the time being I am stopping all additiond/citations etc. on this page,till whatever is written is accepted/corrected and OKayed.I hope there is a time limit for this exercise,so that page could be completed at an early time.

--Sudhirbhargava (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

According to me, the abnormality in the line is that it conveys that it is a fact that Hemu was indeed an 'infidel' which is probably the point of view (POV) of his Afghan generals. A neutral fact is that "Afghans supported Hemu because he distributed his plunder with them". The fact that they considered him an infidel is a different matter. Probably the fact could have been stated in a better way?

My thoughts on Foreign Rule. Firstly, what we mean by by "native ruler" is POV. According to me (my point of view :)), "native" means that the person was born in the region he ruled, then Akbar was a native since he was born in Amarkot in Sindh. So was Sher Shah because he was born in Sasaram in Bihar. Secondly. it is incorrect that there were only foreign invaders ruling North India since 1192 because there were the Guhila or Sisodia Rajputs (Rana Hamir, Rana Sanga being prominent rulers), the Gahadvelas who were ruling Kanauj (for a short time) and the Solanki Rajputs who were not foreign invaders. Among the Sultans of Delhi, not all of them were invaders. Then I called it unncessary because it is enough to state that Hemu started a Hindu kingdom (which means he patronised Hinduism, but lets not go into that for now) even though there were other Hindu kingdoms around at that time.

Lastly, please relax, there is no time limit for completion, but I can assure you my help on trying to make the article as complete and comprehensible as possible. We might not agree on some issues, but that doesn't mean I'm discouraging or disrespecting your efforts.

Salilb (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

All the learned gentleman failed to establish the relations between Adil Shah and Hemu.Were Brahmins doing Business some 550 Years ago ? Then how Hemu was a Brahmin ?Birth Place & Caste of Hemu ??

Some learned historians/writters claim that Hemu was born at Machheri Village of Alwar in 1501 and spent his youth in Reewari ( Haryana) . His father , a Brahmin, was a purohit. He was unable to earn sufficient income to feed his family mainly due to persecution of Hindu religious ceremonies by mugals. Therefore he started trading in food/salt and Hemu became saltpeter on street. ( wikipedia,the free encyclopaedia/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rewari)

(These learned historians/writters fail to establish any reliable connections/ relations between Adil Shah,the ruler of Sasaram & Hemu with Alwar or Rewari . It is a matter of common sense that only closed and trusted friends since childhood would be appointed as Prime Minister cum Military chief of any Ruler especially Mugal ones. Since Adil Shah was born & bought up in Sasaram so Hemu must have belonged to Sasaram or near about area . However Hemu’s wife might have got refuge/shelter in Reewari after an escape from Delhi in 1556.As far as his caste is concerned normally it is traditionally perceived that those engaged in business/trading about six centuries ago were from Bania/Vanik or vaishya and not from Brahmin community. Thus the Rauniyar’s century old claim that Hemu was their legend, seems to be not out of contention.However a detailed investigation/research is required .

Battle of Panipat and Death

Seeing as how my minor edit was reverted, I'm going to now ask what is meant by smotted before editing anything. I think the word was probably "smote," but I'm not positive.Dragonsscout (talk) 22:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

'Smotted' does not mean anything - it should be corrected. The verb in question is 'smite', past tense 'smote', participle "smitten". "Akbar smote Hemu" or "Hemu was smitten by Akbar".

Salilb (talk) 04:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)....

WP:INDIA Banner/Delhi Addition

Note: {{WP India}} Project Banner with Delhi workgroup parameters was added to this article talk page because the article falls under Category:Delhi or its subcategories. Should you feel this addition is inappropriate , please undo my changes and update/remove the relavent categories to the article -- Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 15:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Sections marked POV

I've marked some stuff as POV:

• The section 'Rise to Generalship and earning title of Samrat (Emperor)': The tone of the wording seems very biased.
• The section 'His Victories like Napoleon and fall of Akbar's Agra': The title itself is biased. The title should be neutral, and comparisons to Napoleon could be kept in quotes about Hemu.
• The sub-title 'Aftermath of Hindu Raj' is biased.
• The entire section 'Hemu v/s Jodha-Akbar' should be removed, I think. It has the contributor's own remarks, eg. "How Akbar can be called an Emperor under these conditions?". A new section 'In media' could be made where it can be stated that Hemu has been depicted in the film Jodha Akbar. How he has been depicted, that is certainly POV.
• The sub-title 'Perpetuating the Glory of Hem Chander Vikramaditya' could be changed to 'Legacy of Hem Chander Vikramaditya'

Please discuss here, before the POV remarks are removed.

Salilb (talk) 15:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Salilb

I must say that you have vandalised the entire page, which was prepared after deep research and collecting/reading several books.

1)Right from the beginning when I started working on this page couple of months ago,many readers demanded citations to what I wrote.Now when citations have been put,objections like 'tone of wording is biased' or 'books are biased'doesn't hold good.I have tried to put words as they appear in the books.

2) In the second objection you say 'title is biased'.See there is a complete book by the title'HEMU-Napolean of Medieval India',a copy of which I posses too! I have put only a few sentences from that book on this page.But yes, I think we can remove the words "Akbar's" from this sub-title.That would make it more neutral.

3) The next sub-title 'Aftermath of Hindu Raj'has nothing objectionable.In the medieval period Hemu had established Hindu Vikramaditya Dynasty in North India,also called Hindu Raj, and he brought about many changes in short period he was on throne,they need to be mentioned when Hemu is written about.These are the lost things in history,and wikipedia,the great encyclopedia of present times is the right place to provide this information to the present generations. So your first three objections concerning biased nature of write-ups do not hold good. I could accept them as biased if they were not with proper citations/references.But if you mean all the books are biased and do not make sense then it is a different matter.All the books and writers are recognised.

4) Your fourth objection is intriguing!I fail to understand why you defend the Film Jodha-Akbar so aggressively. In the past also,you have put POVs on this para.This has been a controvercial Hindi film, which denigerated medieval Hindu Kings.The treatment meted out to Hemu in the movie is objectionable and must be a part of any write-up.The movie was stopped from exhibition in many Indian cities and some cases are still pending in courts.Some more are likely to be filed.This section makes readers aware on the facts only.Here we can remove the sentence"How Akbar can be called an emperor under these conditions" You are right, it is not from any book.Rest of the section is just O.K.

5) The fifth section "Perpetuating the Glory of Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" has also nothing objectionable.The new Samvat day of Ram Navmi this year was dedicated to the memory of great hindu king "Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" by several organisations in Haryana this year.The main function was held at Panipat and attended by eminent Indian personalities as speakers, and orginised by 'Rashtriya Yoddha Smarak Samiti'.The function was celebrated to perpetuate and glorify the memorary and achievements of this great medieval warrior. There is nothing like legacy or whatever.There is no reason to change this title. I fail to understand why you have deleated the titles of Hindu Kings from this chapter for example, from 'Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya' to Hemu, from Maharaja Prithvi Raj Chauhan to Prithvi Raj Chauhan and from Chhatrapati Sadashiv Rao Bhau to Sadashiv Rao Bhau.The fact is that the memorial going to be raised in Panipat will bear the names with their titles included. Do you think Hindu Kings cannot have titles?

I have explained all the points.Please advise at an early time on how to complete this page.Putting POVs every time shows pages in disrespect,discourage the writers and shows that wikipedia is not interested in some serious work,otherwise how it is that every now and then,despite putting citations,POVs are put and editings stopped.

Sudhirbhargava —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sudhirbhargava (talk • contribs) 07:38, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'd disagree that I "vandalised" the page. I tried to make some copy-edits, remove some redundant facts (the fact that Hemu won 22 battles was repeated throughout the page. A fact like this is strong enough that it need not be reiterated.) and the POV claims. My comments for your points:

1. As I said (in my mail to you), the books which you are refering to are biographies of Hemu which will no doubt glorify him. Wikipedia is for facts which are presented neutrally, not to portray anyone in a good or bad way. Esp in cases of biographies, the facts should lead the reader to make conclusions about the person. The tone used in the books you have cited are unencyclopaedic. I'm trying to help make it sound neutral.

2. Calling Hemu the 'Napoleon of medieval India' is definitely a Point of View of the author of the book. I'd rather call Napoleon the 'Hemu of France' since he came 3 centuries after him but that would be my point of view! A neutral title could be 'Hemu's campaigns' where the facts could lead the reader to concur if Hemu was the Napoleon of India or if Napoleon was the Hemu of France :)

3. 'Hindu Raj' can refer to several reigns: right from Pushyamitra Sunga to Shivaji. A better title, in my opinion would be 'Hemu's reign as Samrat'.

4. The para on the film Jodha Akbar is undeniably POV. It is a fact that the movie was made and Hemu was depicted in it, but it is an opinion that the film denigrated him. No, I haven't seen the film (I don't plan to watch it either!), but opinions are meant to be in film reviews, not on Wikipedia - so I disagree when you say that your objections "must be a part of any write-up".

5a. 'Glory of Hem Chander Vikramaditya' is unencyclopaedic. It can be mentioned that functions have been held in memory of Hemu, but I dont think it is necessary to write details about what happened at the functions. Every year, Gandhi's birth anniversary is celebrated at various functions, I hope you dont think the details of every function held should come up on Wiki! I think a better idea would be to link to a news page mentioning this function. If the function was that prominent, some newspaper must have definitely covered it.

5b: Firstly, it is wrong that Sadashivraobhau was a Chhatrapati. He was the brother of Peshwa Balaji Bajirao and the commander of the Maratha forces. Secondly, I'm not sure if Prithviraj Chauhan used the title of 'Maharaja', at least the Wikipedia article on him doesn't say so. About using titles in wiki pages, complete titles are mentioned in the articles on the persons so it is enough to give the more common name like Prithviraj Chauhan, Akbar, Shivaji, etc. and not use the complete title for every reference.

I certainly dont mean to disrespect or discourage your effort. If at all, I'm only helping contribute to make a better page.

Salilb (talk) 18:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Salib. This article's POV needs to be reconciled with the Akbar_The_Great article, which tells a very different version of the history. This article as clearly written from a pro-Hindu POV. That point of view may be truth, but it needs to be consistent with the rest of the Indian history articles.

JDW (talk) 14:15, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Hem Chandra Vikramaditya → Hemu — per WP:COMMONNAME, the more popular Hemu should be used, instead of the ceremonial title.

• Google books: Hemu 22,200 hits vs "Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" 22 hits
• Google: Hemu 1,800,000 hits vs 5960 hits for the formal name. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:45, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

 Moved. Jafeluv (talk) 02:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no justification for changing the title of the page from Hem Chandra Vikramaditya to Hemu. The person who suggested this change may not be fully aware of full history of this Indian warrior of medieval period. His full name is Hem Chandra Vikramaditya. 'Samrat' was a title which was removed earlier. Hemu is a confusing name. There is a city in China by the name of Hemu. There have been many persons by the name of Hemu in India. Even at present time many enterprises owned by different persons are named as Hemu ..... etc. So the page named after 'Hem Chandra Vikramaditya' should not be clubbed with Hemu and should be retained as 'Hem Chandra Vikramaditya.

Sudhirb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.137.36 (talk) 04:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Emperor or General? Unbalanced article

Hemu was emperor for only a few months. His primary identity is that of a "general". Of his 22 battles, all but one were fought as a general under Sher Shah, over a long career of 15+ years. The lead I have,

was a successful general under Sher Shah Suri who became Emperor of India for a few months in 1556, after the death of Humayun.

gives a clearer picture of his role.

It was reverted by from an unsigned user. Please give arguments here for your point.

Also the article is severely unbalanced. Contrary to claims of his "brahmin" origins, I find references that he was born of slave or "outcaste" origins [Andre Wink, Akbar, 2009]. Even if the text by "Sadhu Kishori Saran" is a respectable document, the page should cite arguments to the contrary from a host of other authors.

As it stands now, the article has a very unbalanced P N Oak-ish slant. mukerjee (talk) 02:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

==Hem Chandra Vikramaditya== :

You have agreed to the fact that Hem Chandra Vikramaditya did become an emperor for a few months, but you won't call him primarily an emperor, and he should be called primarily a 'general'. By your argument, a Doctor of a few months standing should not be called a Doctor because primarily he had been a student for 18 years and should be called a student or student of medicine ? Also a Prime Minister of a country for a few months should not be called a primarily a Prime Minister because he had been a Member of Parliament for say 20 years. I don't think this is a valid argument. So please revert the changes yourself.

Also you have mentioned him 'born a slave'. I wonder what is your source of information. His family details are given on the page and his father Rai Puran Das was a Purohit in Distt. of Alwar in Rajasthan in the year 1501. I wonder if you have gone through the references mentioned at the end of page. Hem Chandra's Haveli is still standing in Qutabpur area of Rewari District of Haryana, which shows his standard of living. He had dealt in Gunpowder, which he imported from Portugese. He was highly educated and as per Abul Fazal's writings, was advisor to Sur dynasty. You should not describe him slave or outcaste, unless you are desparately biased against him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BishuYadav (talk • contribs) 15:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Indic sources

While non-English sources are permitted, we need to take account of WP:NOENG and it can also be tricky to ascertain reliability. For example, can anyone elaborate on "Dr. Parshu Ram Gupt, Rashtra Gaurav Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya, p. 65" Who is/was Gupt, who was his publisher, when and where was he published, and can we please see a NOENG-compliant translation of the relevant bit? Alternatively, does anyone know of a reliable English source that could be used in its place? - Sitush (talk) 14:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Sources

The sourcing for this article is appalling. Many are old and almost all of them lack proper citations. Please can we improve on this, eg: provide publisher, date of publication, full author names, links or ISBNs etc. - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Hemu's Caste

Hemu's caste has been a contentious issue in the past. Though he was born in a Brahmin family to a Purohit Sant Puran Das in village Devti Maccheri, District Alwar, in Rajasthan in the year 1501, historians mentioned him a Vaishya (Businessman) because Hemu was a successful businessman before he joined Sur administration as Market Superintendant, adviser to Islam Shah Suri etc. Hemu had got involved in business at a young age. Issue of caste of Hemu should be settled once for all, because facts enhance the value of any page on Wikipedia. It is requested to those who do not subscribe to these facts to quote any source which says that he was born in a Vaishya family.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 14:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've no idea why you have started a new thread - you were involved with Talk:Hemu#Hemu.27s_Caste_by_Birth_and_Profession and I'm still awaiting a response there. - Sitush (talk) 14:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Hemu's Caste by Birth and Profession

Unnecessary controversy is being created on Hemu's caste by birth and profession. Hemu was born at village 'Devti Machheri' in present day Alwar district of Indian state of Rajasthan. During Mughal period the area was called Mewat. Hemu's father Sant Puran Das was a Brahmin and a priest. He was in the profession of performing Hindu rituals. His photograph was also posted on the page, however some body removed it recently. Hemu was written a Bania by virtue of his involvement in business and supplier of Arms, Food and Gun Powder to Sher Shah Suri's army. So let there be no confusion on this and no blatent changes should be made without discussions on this page.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:50, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I've been digging around on this and can find sources for both Brahmin and Bania status. I really do not want to get bogged down in the treatment of caste but suffice to say that consensus is that we do not accept an individual's caste to be inherited, regardless of what might be supposed due to the constraints of endogamy etc. You can see a variant of this at User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. If reliable sources say different things then our options are either to show all of those variants or to show none. Did his caste have any real bearing on what he did? - Sitush (talk) 15:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

You are right in pointing out that for Hemu, different historians have mentioned different castes. Apart from Brahmin and Bania, even low caste Hindu has been used for him, because History was written by invaders at that point in time. As I explained above, Hemu was born in an influencial Brahmin family and took the profession of business at a young age, which gave him identity as a Bania. His father's picture in the garb of a priest is commonly available among his community members even today. I had put that picture on this page, which is deleted about a month ago by some body. Your question if his caste has any bearing on what he did is quite pertinent. In India at present times it is difficult to get a recognition for one without flouting one's caste irrespective of if one is a Brahmin, Vaishya, Kshatriya or a Dalit. For example there is no monument for this last Hindu king who ruled from Delhi in 1556 for a short period. In fact he was the only Hindu king to rule from Delhi for about a month in between 1192 AD and 1947AD. Now the Govt. of India would not erect a monument or name a road or a public place or a park after him, till his community with some voting powers do not approach them. This is what is called Vote Bank Politics in India. This argument may look irrational but practically it is true. Because Hemu's history and biography have come to limelight during last few years through Wikipedia, so the clamour for pulling him in different groups. Apart from Banias and Brahmins some Kshatriyas call him a Kshatriya saying how such a great warrior who won 22 battles in entire North India, could be a Brahmin or Bania. But I would like facts to prevail, which are that he was born in a Brahmin family and was in profession of Business, which gave him recognition and description as a Vaishya (Bania).Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid that Wikipedia does not work in the way you suggest. We need to show all opinions mentioned in reliable sources and we cannot use original research. If his caste was irrelevant to his notability/actions then the other option is simply to remove all mention of it. - Sitush (talk) 08:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:RS has a built in tag, which cannot be ignored, and that is: how reliable is the source. Most of historians who wrote him Bania did so because he was in business. But by birth, he was a Brahmin born to a Purohit. I feel that both these facts have to come on the page. During British period, a committee under Col. Todd was constituted to list various castes in North India, mainly Rajputana area. That committee had also listed Hemu's community called Dhusars as Brahmins, though there are Dhusar Banias as well. I can give that reference at the page.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 15:00, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I do not understand your first sentence, sorry, but James Tod is not a reliable source and is not going to appear in this article, period. We will need other examples, from both sides, and I am concerned that your explanation for the two opinions may be original research. I am also concerned that the entire issue may not even be relevant. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

To your last comment first, mentioning his caste may not be relevent here. However, the fact that his father was a Purohit cannot be ignored. Hemu, a well educated person, chose to become a businessman and supply Gun Powder and Cannons to Sher Shah Suri's army, which he procured from Portuguese, through his contacts in the then Vijaynagar Empire in South India. Yes, he can be called a supplier or a businessman or a Vaishya too, by virtue of being in business, though he was born to a Purohit father in a Brahmin family. By WP;RS has a built in tag, I mean Reliable Source or information must be true or a fact. No body has written that he was born to a Businessman father. His community is Bhargava Brahmin, as mentioned in his main Picture on the wikipage also. The citations given by some editors do not say that Hemu was born in a Bania family, so these citations need to be removed.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:25, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you have sources for any of your claims? And which of the existing sources need to be removed on the grounds that they do not support the Bania statement? I'm happy to help with improving this article but I'd rather not change things without good reason. - Sitush (talk) 16:05, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Now this is getting frustrating. I have given citations for his birth in a Dhusar Brahmin family of Purohits several times during the past 4 years. I had put a photograph of his father Sant Puran Das also in a Purohit attire, which is commonly available with decendents and community of Hem Chandra, but that too is removed by new editors, who have half knowledge on Hemu. The main photograph of his coronation, at the page Hemu, also describes him as "Maharaj Hem Chandra Bhargava" Bhargavas are not Banias or Vaishys by birth, though they might be Vaishya by profession. Citations stay there for some time (a few months) but are removed by a new editor. Instead of repeating those citations again, I would request you, like I did in the past, to give me one citation which says that he was born in a Bania/vaishya family. The present two citations which are put with word Bania/Vaishy are simply bogus, untrue and malicious. They only pertain to his profession of business, not birth.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 02:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not trawling through four years' worth of stuff to find your sources, and I'm not remotely interested in images. Sorry. - Sitush (talk) 15:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zm6dmJ7fXjIC&pg=PA163&dq=hemu+brahmin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TafNUYicNcKr0QWOzoHIAw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=hemu%20brahmin&f=false This might be reliable] but we would not remove the Bania/Vaishya claim because of it. - Sitush (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not asking to remove Baniya claim, because as per profession, he was a Baniya. My question is how do we put that he was born to a Purohit (a Dhusar Brahmin) named Puran Das. Also as mentioned by me above, the two citations from books:Richards, John F., ed. (1995) [1993]. The Mughal Empire. The New Cambridge History of India (7th ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 13. ISBN 9780521566032. Retrieved 2013-04-24., and Kolff, Dirk H. A. (2002). Naukar, Rajput, and Sepoy: The Ethnohistory of the Military Labour Market of Hindustan, 1450-1850. Cambridge University Press. p. 163. ISBN 9780521523059. Retrieved 2013-04-24., which are given in Early Life para, along with Vaishya, do not say at all that he was born in a Vaishya family. These merely mention that he was in the profession of business. How can you quote these citations wrongly. This is mockery of citations. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 10:24, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Then provide a source - I've tried and you seem to have ignored it. The burden is on you, not me, - Sitush (talk) 10:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I have provided sources several times relating to the fact that he was born to a purohit (a Brahmin), Saint Puran Das. Bur new editors remove them without giving any true or correct citations which show his birth in a Bania or Vaishya family. Please remove the present two citations which claim he was born in a Bania/Vaishya family, which are absolutely wrong, as they do not talk about his birth Lies should not be perpetuated on wikipedia. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Give us those sources you keep referring to and we'll consider things. We are not censored and we show all reliably-sourced points of view. - Sitush (talk) 13:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just reverted here because the changes, which included some to his origins, seem to be aimed at uplifting Hemu by selective use of sources. Those sources include really old things from the Raj period and also works published by what appears to be an pro-Hemu advocacy group. - Sitush (talk) 11:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no doubt on Hemu's birth in a Brahmin family to Sant (Saint) Puran Das, who was a Purohit and lived at village Devati Machchri in Distt. Alwar of Rajasthan. If any body claims that he was born in a Vaishya family, he should give a reference. Till now none has given any, because none exists. But I agree he was a businessman and supplier of various types of merchandise to Sher Shah Suri's army, and many called him unknowingly of details of birth, as a Vaishya. Akbar's bio graphy writer Abul Fazal for the first time wrote him as a 'Vaishya from Rewari' some times in 1550s, which was wrong as neither he was born in a vaishya family nor born at Rewari. I would like to be enlightened on any citation/reference which mentions Hemu's parentage and place of birth as different from mentioned above.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 08:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

To your immediate above reversion you have said that some changes aim at uplifting Hemu by selective use of sources, which are old and from pro-Hemu advocacy group. I may submit here Sir, that no historian has mentioned any thing about Hemu's birth place and parentage. The information has come from his community members and decendents. His community has a Trust by the name "Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya (Dhusar Brahim) Memorial Trust which was Regd. in the year 2000 to celebrate 450th birth anniversary of Hemu, which fell in 2001. On that occasion, the Trust brought out a booklet on his life and achievements. Hemu's community Bhargavas, also called Dhusar Brahmins have another Regd. organisation called 'All India Bhargava Sabha' (AIBS) which was registered in 1889, and celebrates its 125 anniversary next year. AIBS, an umbrella body and 37 Sabhas in various cities in India celebrate 'Hemu Day' on his Birth Day which falls on Dashehra festival day as per hindu traditions, which is 20 days before Diwali. So these two bodies, the Trust and AIBS are the source of personal information on Hemu.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 09:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Advocacy groups are only reliable for comments about themselves - not their members, not their views about alleged antecedents ... nothing except, for example, their office holders and year of foundation. This is standard throughout Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 10:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The two organisations mentioned above are not the advocacy groups. They strictly contain members of the community of Hemu, including his decendents. These are Govt. Regd. bodies. All the members are 'Bhargavas' (Dhusar Brahmins). If relatives and decendents would not know who Hemu was, then who would ? I am still waiting for any citation which says that Hemu was born in a Vaishya family or to a Vaishya faather as claimed on the page. The present two citations do not mention about his birth details.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, your explanation merely confirms that they are indeed advocacy groups. As I am sure you are aware, it is common in India for people to make claims of descent that have no basis in fact and that are often disputed by rival groups. That, for example, was the driving force behind sanskritisation and is one reason why the number of recorded castes has risen from ca. 1,000 in 1900 to over 4,000 by the early 1990s. - Sitush (talk) 10:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I am also not at all happy with your statement that you are still waiting for sources. You conducted a parallel discussion on my talk page and should be aware that some sources were presented there several hours before you posted your last message above - see the discussion. - Sitush (talk) 11:04, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The two citations do not mention his father Sant (Saint) Puran Das and his profession Purohiti. I think citations are vague and emancipate from the write ups of Akbar's biographer Abul Fazal. While one citation mentions Hemu was a Dhansar, which I do not understand, other mentions him a Dhusar. He was indeed a Dhusar, who originated from Dhosi Hill area. Dhusars were both Brahmins and Vaishyas. But because Hemu's community had their own temples and provided religious services and performed rituals were called Brahmins. There still exist dozens of medieval period temples owned by community in areas like Alwar, Rewari, Narnaul and others. Regarding advocacy for higher status, I may submit that my quest for mentioning Hemu as Brahmin is putting the facts, and true identity of Hemu on the page. I do not consider that there is any difference at present time in the status of Brahmins and Vaishyas. In fact true definition of Brahmin mentioned in Manusmriti is being followed in present times. In Manusmriti, Shalok No. 335 of Chapter 9 says that a Shudra can qualify to become a Brahmin following 3 conditions lika a) Getting good education, which in old times was knowledge of Vedas and other books, b) By remaining clean and 3) by maintaing good behaviour, mannerism and decency in public life. So any body holding these three qualities becomes a Brahmin. I think during last 3 decades in India, castism has weakened at a rapid rate because of spread of education. Thousands of inter caste marriages take place now among educated classes from different caste backgrounds, which was indeed advised by saint Manu in Manusmriti. So my attempt to write Hemu as born to a Dhusar Brahmin parents is to put facts and truth on the page and not to score a point for him.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Sudhirkbhargava, you are being ridiculous now. They mention what they consider to be Hemu's caste and there is no earthly reason why they should have to mention his father. Now either drop this or be prepared for sanctions because you are being tendentious and I am completely fed up of it. - Sitush (talk) 05:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Please go through pages 1 to 18 in book 'Hemu and his Times' Afghans vs Mughals by M.L.Bhargava, ISBN : 81-85047-93-6 which give Heredity, Birth, Parentage and caste etc. of Hemu.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Why should I bother? You are not getting it: we need sources written by people who are detached from his alleged caste and in any event we would still show the various opinions per WP:NPOV. What is it that you do not understand here? Can you give me a reason why I should not seek imposition of a topic ban given your inability to contribute in a neutral and non-tendentious manner? - Sitush (talk) 21:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

If you are not bothered to know facts, it means you are bent upon putting wrongs on the page. If his community would not tell about his heredity, birth, parentage, caste, Kuldevi and Gotra of Hemu then who would ? I have details and pictures of structures where he was born, where he lived during his youth, exact place where he was bhttps://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hemu&action=edit&section=11#eheaded by Akbar and where his torsoe was creamated days after his beheading, which are not in public domain yet and not mentioned by any author. That does not mean that these structures do not exist. Similarly temples owned by his family members from where they operated and performed religious rituals are still in existence. These temples are in operation by various Pujaris, though Hemu's decendents, being educated and involved in various types of jobs and business are not involved in day to day management of these temples, but remain the owners. Some authors, who tried to find details about him do mention that he was born in a Brahmin family. Nirodh Bhushan Roy in his book History of the Afghans, Part 1 has mentioned Hemu's birth in a Brahmin family. Dr.P.L. Bhargava, Prof. in University in Canada in his book "History of Bhargava Community" has given community history since times of saint Bhrigu.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 05:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Time for Third Opinion?

Coming into this discussion from the outside, it seems unclear how to best represent the caste claims. Since this is an unresolved debate limited to two editors, it may be appropriate to refer this to the Wikipedia:Third opinion process. Dl2000 (talk) 02:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Have requested for Third Opinion.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:44, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I have skimmed through the above discussion and am unclear on exactly (1) what content is being proposed to be added/edited, and (2) what are the proposed sources. As it stand the only mention of Hemu's caste I found in the article is the sentence:

Hem Chandra was born in a Baniya Vaishya family

which itself may be problematic since, on a quick search, the cited sources do not seem to support that (correct me if I am wrong). But setting that aside for the moment, Sudhir can you specify exactly what change you are proposing (ie, the sentence(s) you wish to add/edit to the article, and the source supporting those changes) ? Abecedare (talk) 08:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ! You are absolutely right, these references do not talk about his birth, parentage, caste, etc. I had composed a para on 21st june 2013, which was deleted by Sitush. Para also explains why Hem Chandra was called a Vaishya by some authors. References are given there. I have also cited another book by MLBhargava on talk page which has 16 pages dedicated to Hemu's parentage, caste, community, gotra, Kuldevi etc. I would prefer to put the same matter, which was removed on 21st June, 2013, on the page, including the picture of his father Sant Puran Das, who was beheaded by Akbar's army, on refusal to convert to Islam at an age of 82 and was an important historic figure. However, word Brahmin needs to be added with Hindu family, like Hem Chandra was born in a Hindu Brahmin family, to give him a complete identity. Please do the needful. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 14:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Richards said "Hemu, a Hindu Vaisya or member of a literate, mercantile caste, who had risen from humble circumstances ..." and Kolff says "Hemu himself was a Baniya entrepreneur". So, yes, Kolff does not say that he was born in such a family but Richards does (caste was inherited). It would be better to say "Hemu was a Hindu Vaisya", sure. I've never had any issue with amending the text: my issue has been the desire to whitewash using sources - in this case from the Bhargarva community - that we simply never have accepted as being reliable in any article on Wikipedia. Find some decent non-caste association etc sources and then we show the context properly. I've no objection to 3O but some background knowledge of the sourcing problems relating to caste articles, of the caste-ist warfare/pov-pushing that goes on and of processes such as sanskritisation are very relevant. Sudhirkbhargava is, quite obviously, from that community. - Sitush (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that it might help to review this discussion and this one. - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the exact quotes, Sitush. I do mean to examine and discuss the reliability of the proposed sources, and whether they support the proposed text... but first, it would be helpful to know clearly what those proposed sources and text are. Hence my question above to (and below) to Sudhir. Abecedare (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, you wrote "I had composed a para on 21st june...". Looking back at the article history, this is the para I found on the page on that date:

Hem Chandra was born in a Hindu family, in present day district of Alwar of Rajasthan state on Vijyadashmi day or Dussera day in the year 1501. His father Rai Puran Das was a Purohit by profession. Hemu's family migrated to Qutabpur, Rewari while Hemu was still a child. After his formal education in Qutabpur, he took the profession of Business and became a supplier of various merchandise, mainly cannons and gunpowder to Sher Shah Suri's army and was called a Vaishya

Is this the paragraph and sources you wish to include in the article ? If not, as I asked before, can you quote exactly the proposed sentences and sources? Abecedare (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

That is right. But addition of Brahmin to Hindu family in first line. Like "Hem Chandra was born in a Hindu-Brahmin family,Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Now that we have the proposed sources, lets see what they have to say on the topic

• Richards: "Hemu, a Hindu Vaisya or member of a literate, mercantile caste, who had risen from humble circumstances ..." (page 13)
• Kolff: "Hemu himself was a Baniya entrepreneur" (page 163)
• Edwardes: "King Adil, ..., had raised Hemu, a Biania of Rewari, to the position of Chief Minister..." (page 22)
• Khan and Hussain: "... Hemu, who had risen from the ranks. He was from the bania or trader class,..." (page 67)

Any other relevant quotes that I might have missed ? Or, any other relevant sources you (Sudhir or Sitush) would like to propose ?

I couldn't locate "Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya published by SHCVDBMC Trust, Rakmo Press, New Delhi" online, or on Worldcat. Sudhir, can you provide the complete bibliographical details (author, year, ISBN) for that source and the relevant quote from page 3 ? Abecedare (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Abecedare, you really do need to read those two discussions which I linked above. Please. They contain some sources and they make it clear that I am not opposed to mentioning a claim of Brahmin background if a decent source or two can be found. The ball has been stuck in one side of the court since May because those sources have not been provided and they are still not provided in the quotes that you give above, none of which mention Brahmin. In the past, I have suggested that this source needs to be utilised in order to mine the various opinions but I've got nowhere due to blind insistence that the guy is a Brahmin, period. I've not looked into whether that source could be used directly but the people it cites are certainly acceptable, provided that someone has access to them. I know what your opinion will be already, ie: that this is not an either/or situation and that there are contrasting academic views - that has been my position throughout, both here and in relation to the Brahmin article referred to in those linked discussions. - Sitush (talk) 17:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Two sources with ISBN and some other references are :

• 1) "Early Aryans to Swaraj", By SRBakshi, Vol. 5, Medieval India, p163, ISBN 8176255378 , which says In contemporary chronicles he is called Baqqual or Vaishya but he was in act , a Bhargava (Brahmin of Gaur sub caste)
• 2)"Hemu And His Times", By MLBhargava, published by :Reliance Publishing House, New Delhi, ISBN 81-85047-93-6, pages 1-18, describe* Hemu's Heredity, Parentage, Caste, Community, Gotra and Kuldevi
• 3)"The Successors of Sher Shah by Nirodh Bhushan Roy, written in 1934, has mentioned that Hemu was born in a Bhargava Dhusar family, a sub caste of Gaur Brahmins
• 4)Gazetteer of Alwar, 1878 AD, p 164 also Imperial Gazetteer Vol. 3, page 286
• 5)Tods Annals and Antiquities Part 1, p 436-439, which describe Hemu's community as Dhusar Brahmins

There are many other Books in Hindi and Urdu which mention Hemu as Brahmin but you may not be able to see them. However, I can mail the scanned copies of them. It is important to note that those who have written him a Vaishya do not mention any thing about his birth, parentage, relatives and decendents. They mention him a Vaishya because Hemu did business also during his initial carreer.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 18:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm pleased that you are now providing some sources that might mention his Brahmin state. However, James Tod and the Imperial Gazetteers are not reliable sources. I cannot see a mention of him on p. 163 of Bakshi, as shown on Google Books - what edition are you looking at? what name is used for him in that book? I'll try to take a look at the other two in an hour or so. - Sitush (talk) 18:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, Can you specify exact quotes from the first three books you list above instead of paraphrasing their content ? (Take your time; we don't have to resolve this long-standing discussion in a matter of hours or 1-2 days!)

Sitush, I agree with you that James Tod and Imperial Gazetteers are not appropriate sources for a subject which has been covered by plenty of secondary literature. By the way, I like this book that you pointed above and which seems to be on the point and potentially usable (The author was a reader at a West Bengal college and the book is carried by at least a few academic libraries; not a gold-plated source but above average for this article). But lets give Sudhir a chance to produce sources (with quotes) that support his proposed text more directly, before we try to pick and choose the best sources and fashion the exact text for the article. Abecedare (talk) 19:42, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I could find several references on Google Books it self, which describe Hemu a Brahmin, First from 2 books mentioned above:

• The first book 'Early Aryans to Swaraj' by SRBakshi and others, Vol 5, p.163, exact wordings are " A resident of Rewari, Hemu was a Dhusar Bhargava*, and in his early days used to sell salt in the streets of his town. The aestrix explains that-in contemporary chronicles he is called Baqqual or Vaishya but he was in fact, a Bhargava (Brahmin of Gaur sub caste)."
• In the second book 'Hemu and His Times' by MLBhargava, pages numbered 1-18 are devoted to his Heredity, Parentage, Relatives, Community, Caste, Gotra, Kuldevi. Page no. 169 give the geneological table of Hemu's ancestors and his descendents. Page 170 gives the geneological table of Hemu's sister's son General Ramaya, whose ancestors were the 'Rajpurohits' of Hindu Kings in Delhi from 970 AD (time of Kumarpala) to 1191 AD (time of Prithvi Raj Chauhan).

Some of the Books and references available in Google Books are as follows :

• 1)'India's Historical Battles': From Alexander the Great to Kargil by Kaushik Roy, p. 68: exact words are "Hem Chandra was born in a Gaur Brahmin family of Alwar in Rajasthan. The heredity profession of his family was agriculture. However, some members of his family were traders of saltpetre, one of the chief components of Gunpowder. This probably explains Hemu's familiarity with firearms from a young age.". Also p 73, exact words are " Hemu's sister's son, Ramaya, a fat Brahmin, commanded the left wing."
• 2)'Genaral Knowledge Digest 2010', by Tmh; p 2130; under sub heading Successes: exact words are " Before Humanyun reconquered Delhi in 1555, three different rulers were crowned. During this time the real power lay in the hands of a Brahmin General named Hemu"
• 3)'A History of Rajasthan' by Reema Hooja, p 442, Rupa & CO. Delhi, exact words are "as Dhusar is also a sub caste among Gaur Brahmins, Hemu may have been a Brahmin"
• 4)'Advanced study in the History of Medieval India', by J.L.Mehta, page 190, exact words are " Soon after Humanyun's death, Agra and Delhi were occupied by Hem Chandra, nicknamed Hemu Baqqal (Viz. Baniya) the brilliant Prime Minister and indomitable commander in chief of Muhammad Adil Shah Sur. Originally, he belonged to a Brahmin family of Rewari"
• 5)'Land & People of Indian States and UT, Vol 9, p 338, 2006, by SCBhatt & Gopal K Bhargava; exact words are " The celebrated warrior-general, Hemu was a Dhosar Brahmin"
• 6)'Akbar the Great: Political History, 1542-1605 AD, p. 24, by ALShrivastva-1973; exact words are " Probably a Gaur Brahmin of Dhusar sub-caste (modern Bhargava) and of puny physique 'Hemu rose by gradual steps on account of his intelligence, loyality and great qualities of leadership until he became the de facto ruler of the Sur Empire."
• 7)'Life and Achievements of Muhammad Bairam Khan' By Ram Kishore Pandey-1978, p 137, exact words are "Hemu had risen from a small position of vendor to that of Chief Minister and General merely by his ability. He is mentioned as a low born Hindu but his defendents claim that he was a Brahmin and belonged to Rewari"
• 8)'Whar Ails the Indian Army', A report to the Supreme Commander, p 79, By Man Mohan Sharma 1998; Exact words are " The second battle of Panipat was fought between Hemu Bakal and Akbar. Hemu a Gaur Brahmin by Caste was the Prime Minister in the court of Moh. Shah Adil, a descendent of Sher Shah Suri."
• 9)'Indica' Vol. 19, p 27, 1982; exact words are " Adil Shah's successful Brahmin General Hemu, paused in Delhi to crown himself Emperor of Hindustan with revivalist title of Vikramaditya"
• 10)'The History of India', 1000AD-1707 AD p. 438 ALShrivastva 1964; exact words are " Besides the presence of the three Sur rivals, Akbar's greatest enemy was Hemu, the Hindu. In contemporary chronicles he is called Bakal or Vaishya, but he was, in fact a Bhargava (Brahmin of Gaur sub-caste)"
• 11)'Historical Perspective of Warfare in India: some morals, By Sri Nandan Prasad, p 29: exact words are : "Hemu the commander-in-chief of the Pathan army at Panipat II (ad 1556) was of course, a Brahmin "
• 12)'Military History of India' By Hemendra Chandra Kar; 1980, p 282, exact words are " But the most formidable enemy was Hemu, king Abdali's capable Hindu Minister and General. A Gaur Brahmin of very humble origin and puny physique, Hemu rose the hard way to the rank of Prime Minister and General by dint of his rare capabilities."
• 13)'Report on the revision of the assessment of the Gurgaon district, by J Wilson, 1884, p 33, exact words are " The Dhusars claim to be descendents from Brahmins, but do not intermarry with them or receieve charity; they derive their name from Dhosi, a flat topped hill near Narnaul, where their ancestors had lived. The famous Hemu was a Dhusar of Rewari."
• 14)'Haryana District Gazetteers, Mahendragarh, Haryana, India, p. 328, by Kiran Prem, exact words are "The celebrated warrior-General Hemu was a Dhosar (Brahmin). This place, Dhosi is considered most sacred and is regarded as a Tirth"

I think these are sufficient references to prove that Hemu was a Brahmin by birth and those who called him a Vaishya was, because he supplied merchandise to Suris in the beginning of his carreer.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhirkbhargava, I have previously referred you to WP:NPOV but I think that you might also need to read WP:RS. Furthermore, it is seems very likely that you are using the snippet view feature of Google Books, assuming that you are based in India, the UK or the USA. You can't use snippet views because there is no context. Nonetheless, I'll do my best to check these out using various proxy servers. - Sitush (talk) 08:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• 1. Roy is snippet view only. I also suspect that it is original research to suggest that because his nephew was a Brahmin then so too must have been Hemu
• 2. General Knowledge Digest has been rejected as a reliable source on numerous occasions because it lacks depth and is basically an examination crib sheet/cramming book
• 3. A History of Rajasthan. Snippet view only and even in your limited qyuotation it uses the words "may have been". Furthermore, in the adjacent earlier snippet view it says "He is believed to have been a resident of Machheri ... and may have belonged to the merchant bania sub-caste called Dhusar, though there ..." This is actually a very good demonstration of why snippet views are not acceptable
• 4. I cannot see the relevant page of Advanced study in the History of Medieval India
• 5. We cannot use Land & People of Indian States & UT because it is published by Gyan. See User:Sitush/Common#Gyan for some background info.
• 6. Akbar the Great: Political History, 1542-1605 AD is snippet view only and in any case is another that speculates even in the quotation that you give.
• 7. Life and Achievements of Muhammad Bairam Khan is snippet view and even in the quote that you give seems to be undecided
• 8. Whar Ails the Indian Army' is snippet view and in any event I strongly suspect it is a pretty useless passing mention because the book title suggests that it is not really a work on medieval India
• 9. I presume this is Encyclopedia Indica, which has been rejected as a source because it has been shown to assemble unattributed copyright violations of other people's work, eg: a book by Bamber Gascoigne. Since the stuff is unattributed, we can't determine its reliability
• 10. The History of India', 1000AD-1707 AD is snippet view only and simply not good enough. Are you seriously telling me that you would accept that quotation without examining why Shrivastava is so adamant that the contemporary chronicles were wrong? Perhaps they do explain but if so then we cannot see that
• 11. I've no idea how to find this book - need more info
• 12. Ditto
• 13. Raj source - forget it
• 14. Another Raj source, although in this case edited by someone of more recent vintage. As a general rule, we do not use these because they tend to lack academic rigour. In any event, it is another snippet view.

So, sorry but you've done a lot of digging around but not really advanced things greatly. - Sitush (talk) 08:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sudhir for digging up the sources, and Sitush for your review and critique. To add to few to Sitush's reviews:

• I didn't find "Early Aryans to Swaraj" by SR Bakshi (I assume you mean vol 5 dealing with Medieval India) on Google Books; Sudhir, can you provide a link? Also the quote you provide from this work matches the quote snippet from Shrivastava's "The History of India" which seems very odd since it often is a sign that, as with Gyan publishers, the text has been taken from wikipedia or similar sources!
• I couldn't read more than a snippet of ML Bhargava's "Hemu and his times" on Google Books? Do you have access to the complete work; if you so can you send us a link or scan? Incidentally, the quote I read said, "... they now claim to be Bhargava Brahmin, though still following the vocation of trade" (emphasis added), which well illustrates the inherent dangers of trying to decipher authors meaning based on snippet views, which lack complete context.
• I did find 11. Historical Perspectives of Warfare in India and 12. Military history of India but the quoted extracts are just passing references in larger works on general military history, and thus of minimal value since we have much better and comprehensive sources on Hemu and that period of history.

As for the others I largely agree with Sudhir's reviews above about the quality of sources. At this point, instead of gathering more quote snippets from Google Books my suggestion would be to try to refashion the current article text on Hemu's birth, early life and caste (which would include a brief mention of claims that he was a Brahmin, Vaishya etc) based on the sources already quoted in the article and (say) this one. If that sounds reasonable I can try my hand at drafting the text within the next day or so. Abecedare (talk) 15:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ! Abecedare, for spending time. You can try drafting but please see that his birth is Brahmin and profession was busines, so Vaishya.

Following sources mention very clearly that Hemu belonged to Brahmin caste, with no doubts. In fact his mention as a Vaishya is in passing reference and only on the basis of his being a businessman, not birth. Though some of the references above can be rejected, the following ones are very clear:

• Bakhshi's Vol. 5, is available on Google Books. I got it looking for Brahmin Hemu on Google books. Wordings are very clear as mentioned above on page 163.
• MLBhargava's book, which I possess, first 1- 16 pages, which are relevent can be scanned and sent. Please tell me where ?
• Roy's India's Historical Battles', is not a snippet view. page 68 very clearly mentions that about birth of Hem Chandra in a Gaur Brahmin family of Rajasthan.
• Sr. No. 4 JLMehta's is also not snippet, and total page can be seen on Google books, looking for 'Brahmin Hemu'
• Sr. No. 8, MMSharma clearly mentions the caste of Hemu.
• Sr. No. 10, ALShrivastva clearly ridicules calling him a Vaishya and mentions that he was a Bhargava ( Gaur Brahim ).
• Sr. No. References at 11 and 12, which Sitush could not find are on Google Books, and can be searched as 'Brahmin Hemu'

The book Himu by Sarkar has too many quotations from various authors and confusing. I think Wikipedia should carry facts and truths and not confusing stories. The above para which I had written, and you wanted to know, is clear on the fact that he was born in a Brahmin family and was called a Vaishya because he was involved in business.Thanks.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 17:28, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for outdenting but I'm blowed if I'm going to sort out that mess of indentations just above ;) Sudhir, it now becomes apparent to me why you are struggling here. You ask us to search for "Brahmin Hemu" but that is not the way one should conduct research because it will tend to provide one-sided evidence. You need to read and evaluate sources thoroughly, not harvest one-liners to suit your own position. If you did so then you would not make the statement above, ie: "please see that his birth is Brahmin". Research can be difficult but you have to approach it with an open mind. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

His birth in a Brahmin family and parentage is a biological and scientific fact. I am not doing any research on that. The solid references on Hemu's birth which i have in Hindi, Urdu and English books are not on the Net which I can cite you. So I looked in Google books.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, it doesn't work like that. I've tried to explain this on numerous occasions but it seems not to be sinking in: if reliable sources hold differing opinions then we have to reflect those differing opinions. For whatever it is worth, Bhargarva was not a medievalist and his work was mostly concerned with post-1857 events; similarly, I'm not too happy about using Sunil Kumar Sarker directly because his specialism is English & American literature! However, the Sarker book does reference academic specialists in some detail & I've been hoping for months that someone might be able to get a copy of those. - Sitush (talk) 18:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, Can you provide a link to the Google book page for the Bakshi book ? I still didn't find it (although I did find the JL Mehta book I had missed earlier).

I'll take another look at the other references you list (and will wait to read the Bhargava pages you'll be emailing) and will add my comments here (may be by tomorrow). We can discuss the clarity versus accuracy issue, once I have had the chance to draft a proposed text. Cheers.

PS: I agree with Sitush that searching Google Books for "Hemu + Brahmin" is not a desirable research technique, but I'd suggest that we don't get distracted into a discussion of that issue right now. I think we have plenty of refs by now, found by different search techniques, and we can move on to crafting text that will help improve the article.Abecedare (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Bakshi book was mentioned by sitush also on 28-6-2013 above, which he considered reliable. Link is also given above. Thanks.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 02:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Still waiting comments from Abecedare to continue discussions. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Almost a month has passed, and third opinion is still awaited. Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 17:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Still awaiting a response from Sitush and Abecedare to finalise the page.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

What response are you awaiting from me? I thought you had sent something to Abecedare for review? - Sitush (talk) 11:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I did send the references as desired to abecedare and still waiting for response and edits. He is busy at present and page remains incomplete as many sentences have been deleted.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 16:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Mea culpa. Will post my thoughts within a day. Abecedare (talk) 16:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Early life section

As a follow-up to the discussion in the above section here is my review of the available sources. (I realize some of these points have been made before, but hope the excercise will still be useful).

Primary sources

The primary sources which form the basis for claims/analysis of Hemu's early life:

• Badauni
• Abu-l-Fazl, Akbarnama vol I

Authoritative secondary sources

Here are the works that are not only written by established historians of medieval India, but the ones that are also cited by other authors on the subject of Hemu. Ideally, these are the sources the bulk of the article should be based upon:

1. RC Majumdar, Hemu: A forgotten Hindu Hero, The History and Culture of the Indian People Vol 7: The Mughal Empire, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, 1984
2. RC Majumdar, Military history of India,
3. Kalika Ranjan Quango, Sher Shah and his times
4. VA Smith, Akbar, the great Mughal
5. Jadunath Sarkar, Military history of India, 1970
6. Wolseley Haig, The Cambridge history of India, Vol 4, 1971
7. Ishwari Prasad, The Mughal Empire
8. P. Kohli, A short history of Akbar and Mughal administration in India
9. Erskine, A History of India Under the Two First Sovereigns of the House of Taimur, Báber and Humáyun, Volume 2, 1854

Other secondary sources

• Sunil Kumar Sarker, Himu, the Hindu "Hero" of Medieval India: This book contains a useful and (and, per my spot checks) accurate summary of many of the sources listed above, and has the advantage of being accessible on Google Books. But the authors own views on the subject are not by themselves notable (for reasons I can expand upon, if needed) or within the accepted mainstream (for example he estimates Hemu's birth year to be ~1523, which I haven't seen quoted or referenced in any other work)
• Kanwal Kishore Bhardwaj, Hemu: Napoleon of Medieval India: This book has the same pros and cons of the Sarker book mentioned above. Again, IMO, the author should not be referenced for his own views/analysis. A big plus: the book includes Majumdar's Hemu: A forgotten Hindu Hero essay as an appendix.
• ML Bhargava, Hemu and his times: This book is essentially a biography of Hemu as seen from the pov of the Bhargava community. As such, it could be used as a representative example of such a POV, but it should not be regarded as a neutral historical work (for example, here is an extract from the work demonstrating its tone: "...Newaldas [Hemu's father's cousin], was also got [sic] imprisoned. Subsequently Newaldas, due to his supernatural powers and devotion to Radha Ballabh, got himself freed from prison, in all probability, when after the death of Bairam Khan, Akbar relented, and wanted to meet the saint. But as saints and devotees never tried to play psychophant, Newaldas refused to oblige Akbar. Thereupon, he was once more put behind the bars; but he again disappeared as if by miracle")

Proposed text

Here is my proposed text based on some of the sources listed above.

I haven't included inline citations yet, but the above text is based upon Majumdar, Smith, and Erskine that I checked personally, with Sarker and Bhardwaj used to get an idea of other noteworthy opinions (for reasons cited before, I have not included any content from Sarker/Bhardwaj that does not trace back to one of the listed "authoritative sources"). I don't think, we need to reference Hemu's caste at all in the article (because while his Hindu faith is pertinent to his actions and fame; the caste seems to be simple trivia). However, if other involved editors feel that caste needs mentioning, I'd propose the following text based on the sources listed above + Quanungo (of which, unfortunately, I have seen only extracts):

This can be inserted after the "Modern historians..." sentence, although, again, I would recommend simply excluding it.

Comments, objections, additions and tweaks welcome. Abecedare (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

If your first version can be achieved without citing pre-independence sources then I'd be very happy. I've long been of the opinion that unless caste is significant to the notability of a person (which is rarely the case) then it has no place in a biographical article and almost always causes more problems than it educates the reader. - Sitush (talk) 23:52, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you that more recent high-quality sources would be preferable, but I did spend some time searching for those and there doesn't seem to be any fresh scholarship on Hemu post-dating Majumdar, Quanango et al (later works are by more lightweight historians like Sarker, Bhardwaj etc, and published by lesser known publishers, and in any case they mainly recite the discoveries/claims of the earlier works). Even a jstor search for "Hemu/Himu/..." throws up a ca 1920 article by VA Smith and little else of note. I'd (sincerely!) love to be proved wrong but I'm afraid we may be stuck here with what we have. Abecedare (talk) 00:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to make the task any more difficult but I wonder if any more modern sources of repute (ie: ignore Sarker etc) repeat those earlier studies. At least we would then have affirmation of the earlier stuff. I've become somewhat tired of delving into this issue but I'll try one last run-through myself, not to cause any change to your proposal but rather to see if there is any such modern support/citation of the older works. The variant naming conventions always make such searches a complete pain but I'm really not keen on using Raj etc sources directly. Although if needs must ... - Sitush (talk) 00:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Fresh eyes would be appreciated because having now spent a few hours on the subject, I'm genuinely curious (completely apart from wiki-editing issues).

And I should clarify my above comment: read "later works are by ..." as "later comprehensive works are by..." (and by comprehensive I simply mean more than a para!). Of course there are numerous more recent textbook histories of the Mughal period, but they seldom (never?) delve into Hemu's background beyond saying that he was a Hindu (sometimes Vaishya Hindu) and that he rose up through the ranks; Thapar, Richards are typical examples. Abecedare (talk) 00:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Abecedare for going through various publications on Hemu's caste by birth. I thought some more people, who claimed that Hemu was a Vaishy by birth and created confusion on this issue would also join discussions. But they are not to be found and finally we have three persons discussing the issues. You have a consesus from various authors in your second version, which is more acceptable, though it is not perfect. Your considering Abul Fazl and Badauni as Primary source and basis of your final versions is not appropriate. Firstly they were enemies of Hemu and secondly they made a passing reference to his early life, which for them was not very important, was without much research and based on fact that Hemu started his carreer as a supplier of Gun Powder and Guns to Sher Shah Suri and so a Vaishy. Also your not giving any credence to MLBhargava, one from Hemu's community who had all the authentic info about Hemu and mentioned the relevent details on his community, their living areas, parentage, profession, decendents etc. in his book 'Hemu and His Times'. Calling this information as POV is not appropriate. It is like a 'mother is not given a right to tell her son, who his father is' as it will amount to POV and right to decide about parentage is given to some one sitting thousands of miles off. I think MLBhargava should be given more importance as I have many more evidences to prove his contentions.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 02:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

A few quick notes:

• I think there may be some confusion with regards to the term "primary sources". As used here, it does not mean the main or best sources. Rather in historiography, primary sources refers to works composed based on (close to) personal knowledge of the subject. As such Badauni and Fazl are undisputably primary sources.
• I have not based my proposed text on Badauni's or Fazl's writing! As per wikipedia policy that is s big no-no. Instead we need to rely on how current scholar interpret what is written by them and others.
• I agree that Fazl and Badauni are biased sources, and that they make only passing and vague references to his early life. This is a non-controversial fact agreed by all current works that I have seen. In fact, I have proposed that the article say so explicitly in my proposed text (see the highlighted box).
• Just as someone from Hemu's time (Fazl and Badauni) does not carry extra weight on wikipedia, someone from Hemu's community (ML Bhargava) carries no extra weight here. Instead, as a tertiary work, we rely on credentialed historians to read such POV sources and interpret them for us. Unfortunately historians have not paid much attention to Bhargava's writings on Hemu, as he himself complains on page 13 of his book, so we perforce have to follow their example.

Abecedare (talk) 03:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Majumdar did write on p. 13 in the year 1974 that "Hemu was born in a poor family of Dhausar (?) section of Bania caste, being in a town in the southern part of Alwar". MLBhargava maintains that, "he had published his book in 1961 and Nirodh Bhushan Ray in 1934. In both it has been written that Hemu was born in a Bhargava Dhusar family, a sub-caste of Gaur Brahmins. It is a pity that he has repeated without investigation that he was "originally a grocer (or hawker) by profession in a small township in Alwar" Also Kalikaran Qannugo in his 'Sher Shah and his Times', published in 1965 has called Hemu son of Ramya of Rewari, who was according to Abul Fazal his nephew, sister's son." Factually each information by Qannugo is wrong. Neither Hemu was born to Ramya nor in Rewari. It only created further confusion. Factually, father of Hemu was Sant Puran Das, a Sant and a land owner, who lived in village Devti Maccheri, in that time area called Mewat or present day district Alwar in Rajasthan. So Mazumdar and Qannugo are way off, while MLBhargava and Nirodh Bhushan are right in describing Hemu's caste. I hope you see it in right perspectiveSudhirkbhargava (talk) 14:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, do you have a specific proposal on how the text I have proposed above should be changed? If so, can you compose the exact sentences that you want to include in the Early life section and provide them here along with the relevant citations? That will help us make concrete progress with the article. Abecedare (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Please see how the page looked on 22 Sept. 2012. It was edited throughly by Sitush and I had given several citations as required by him. At that point also I had requested Sitush to freeze the page partially to be saved from frequent unwarrented and non serious editions. I had put picture of Hemu's father on the page to remove any doubts on his profession and identity, so that Hemu's caste could be confirmed. After 22 Sept. 2012 page has been deteriorating consistently because of frequent irrelevent editings. Also some Vaishys put wrong citations on Hemu's birth and created the confusion. Please see if page could be partially freezed at it appeared on 22 Sept. 2012.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 00:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Sudhir, I too sometimes wish that wikipedia pages could be frozen in the versions that I like, but alas wikipedia rules and ethos stand in the way. :)

More seriously, I assume you are referring to this version of the page that was last edited by you. I haven't read that version completely, but the Early Life section in it was largely sourced to:

• Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya By Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya Dhusar (Bhargava) Memorial Charitable Trust (Regd.), Rekmo Press, New Delhi: I haven't seen this work, but the listed author suggests that it is a community history, which for the same reason as ML Bhargava's book, is deprecated on wikipedia.
• Anokha Aarohi by Kranti Trivedi: This is a work of fiction !

Please take a look at WP:HISTRS for why we prefer academic histories and modern scholarly works in writing wikipedia articles. That is not going to change anytime soon, and I don't want to give you false hope that the Early life section can be edited to resemble the version it was on Sep 22 last year. Abecedare (talk) 03:23, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate Wikipedia is scientific in approach and want quotations from reputed and scholarly historians. Even I would like truth and facts about Hemu on his biography page. We were talking about Hemu's caste by birth, which I claimed Brahmin, by virtue of Hemu's birth to Puran Das of vill. Devti Macheri, in present day district Alwar in the state of Rajasthan in India. Has any modern historian written about Hemu's father, his family details, his caste by birth and family profession ? Please enlighten.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 16:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I've been watching recent developments from afar and am coming to the conclusion that Sudhir might need to read WP:IDHT. I had months of this prior to the arrival of Abecedare and even now Sudhir does not seem to be really "getting it". Sudhir, it is no good paying lip-service to policy and yet continuously banging on with your own pet theory. You wore me down some months ago (I did not agree with the state of the article then) but I am somewhat refreshed now. Unless you have some concrete and policy-compliant proposed wording in mind, I think that this discussion is over. I've done my own research, as promised above, and cannot improve on Abedcedare's stuff. - Sitush (talk) 16:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I have moved the first proposed version to the article since,at a minimum, it is an improvement over the existing version. If newbetter sources come to light, we can always expand and improve it further. Abecedare (talk) 02:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Hemu's father

About a year back I had added the following sentence to the Early life section of the article: His father Puran Das, was spiritually minded, a follower of Hith Harivansh, and frequently absent from home while touring to spread Harivansh's teachings., and recently when asked for a specific source, I went searching for where exactly I had got that information. Here is its provenance:

1. The statement I added is a paraphrase of discussion on page 37 of Sunil Kumar Sarker's Himu, the Hindu "Hero" of Medieval India. As I have explained earlier, Sarker's book appears to be a reliable summary of secondary sources, though the author's own analysis is not noteworthy or particularly reliable.
2. Sarker's discussion is itself based on pages 5-7 of Ram Kanwar Bharadwaj's Hemu: A critical study of the man and his work published in 1975 (not to be confused with KK Bhardwaj's Hemu-Napoleon of Medieval India published in 1999). I haven't seen RK Bharadwaj's work and cannot assess its reliability, though its author and publisher are not well-known.
3. RK Bharadwaj's discussion is in turn based on Jadunath Sarkar's Military history of India and Quanungo's Sher Shah and his times. These last two are oft-cited authors in context of Hemu, and should be regarded as reliable secondary sources for this article. However I have not yet accessed these works myself.

Given the long chain of paraphrases that link the reliable sources (Jadunath Sarkar and Quanungo) to the statement in the wikipedia article, I have removed the sentence from the article for now. We can add it back once someone has directly verified that the statement is supported by Jadunath Sarkar, Quanungo, or other HISTRS compliant sources. In any case, locating the Sarkar and Quanungo will be a good idea for anyone interested in the subject, and will help improve other sections of the article. Abecedare (talk) 22:44, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Hem Chandra's Haveli

Hem Chandra's Haveli located in Qutabpur (a village earlier) now in Rewari town is actually 800-1000 years old. The first floor of the Haveli was renovated in 1540s when Hem Chandra took Govt. appointment in Delhi, with European architecture and with Mughal period Lakhori bricks, wooden cantilevers and bigger Halls. This Haveli is/was one of the 30 odd Havelis owned by the clan. The village belonged to one clan only. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.138.22 (talk) 04:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

This may very well be true. But it needs a reliable citation or some other means of proof.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 21:45, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Hemu's Haveli at Rewari is a listed monument by INTACH, the premier NGO in India responsible for conserving heritage structures in the country. It is also listed among the 10 most endangered heritage structures in the country. INTACH has already prepared a conservation report on this Haveli.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Unreliable sources, inconsistent citations

I've just added an unreliable sources tag to the page. Guru Nanak,Raag Asa,pages 360, 417-418, 1288, HEMU Life and Times of Hemchandra Vikramaditya By R.K.Bhardwaj;Hope India Publications,Gurgaon,page30, Samrat Hemchander Vikramaditya By Samrat Hemchander Vikramaditya Dhusar Bhargava Memorial Charitable Trust, page 6, printed by Rakmo Printers, New Delhi, etc. are all unreliable sources. Only two of the (59) citations in the article even have an ISBN number. Only 5 come with URLs.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 11:17, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

All these publications mentioned by you are popular publications, however these may not be available on line. I wonder if non-availability of these on line makes them unreliable ? Out of three books mentioned above, I have the two later ones with me. The first one "Guru Nanak, Raag Asa" is also a popular publication in Punjabi language written in 1530s. These cannot be called unreliable.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 15:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Amar Chitra Kathas are also popular publications. But they don't make for reliable sources. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and needs reputable, reliable sources, and in this case, those ideally written by historians. Blogs are not reliable. Publications published by unknown publishers and by trusts that are basically set up to promote the subject are not considered reliable. R.K. Bharadwaj's book is not scholarly, is written in the language of a 10 year old, and states its cloyingly obvious bias right upfront. Interpretations of gurbanis, hymns and bhajans in Punjabi are not reliable sources except perhaps in the hands of historians. What we want are scholarly sources, not just popular ones. What I would suggest is to see if an unreliable source cites its own sources and follow those up to judge their reliability. If they do prove to be reliable and reputable, we can use them. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 17:26, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

R.K.Bhardwaj is an Indian and not British. His English language may not be perfect. But his book has citations from reputed historians. No historian has come out with a biography of Hemu. So we have to take in to account the information from his community on his birth, place of birth, childhood and early life, of course with some published citations. Guru Nanak's description of the times of Babur's invasion is described in RaagAsa. This was the time of Hemu also. Intention is to put a 'biography' of Hemu' on Wikipedia with facts. The so called reputed historians have written him as a born Brahmin, Vaishy, Kshatriya as well as Shudra, which he can't be. Obviously, right information was not available. But his decendents/community members at the place of his birth and living place have details which are coming to light now. I have tried to put reliable citations there. Regarding his role during 1540-56, matter written by Persian as well as European historians is available, though divergent and would need scrutiny.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 04:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

@Cpt.a.haddock: : I largely agree with your analysis of the reliability of your sources (a few quibbles such as ISBN, by itself, not being an indicator of reliability are immaterial to the final conclusion we arrive at). You can see my longer notes on these and other sources in the talk page section above.

@Sudhirkbhargava: I am disappointed that you chose to ignore the extensive discussion and analysis we undertook to arrive at a consensus version for the Early life section, and replaced it with a POV version based on unreliable and biased sourced. Given that your edits are disputed, please propose the changes you wish to make based on reliable sources and obtain consensus here on the talk page. 04:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you that we had reached concensus on early life section after spending months, though I was not completely satisfied with the para. I was away from Wikipedia for about a year. Recently, I found that some one demanded two citations specifically in the 'Early Life' section on 10th Oct., as you had given a gist of early life from several books clubbing the three citations. It was then that I had to bring the specific citations to the fore again.I remember you had asked me earlier also what specifics I want on this page in early life section, please give me a day, i'll come out with a para on 'Early Life' on talk page. Thanks.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 09:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

@Sudhirkbhargava:Sorry, but your idea of "reliable citations" is not congruent with Wikipedia's requirements for reliability. As I've mentioned above, if a questionable source cites "reputed historians", then please follow the breadcrumbs and reference the reputed historians directly.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 12:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

@Abecedare: Thanks. I missed reading your message from a year ago. It's actually rather amusing to see how infrequently most of the sources in your list have been cited in this article.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 12:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I removed a couple of {{cn}} tags from the "Early Life" section since the content is a summary of the citations given at the end of the paragraph. Is there a way, this can be made clearer? Abecedare (talk) 17:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I would suggest using line by line citations for contentious sections of text. Right now, the line about Hemu's father needs proper attribution. Smith and Erskine do not appear to mention him at all.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 09:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

OK, will look into that (may be the weekend before I get to it, though). Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 16:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I've now added a . Please remove it once you have verified the information about Hemu's father and moved the citation accordingly.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 21:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

If Smith and Erskine have not mentioned about Hemu's father, so ? Do you mean Hemu did not have a father ? Several books, Hemu's community have mentioned that Hemu's father was a priest by the name of 'Puran Das', and lived in village Macchri in the Tehsil of present day Rajgarh, district Alwar (earlier Mewat) in the state of Rajasthan. What is the confusion about it. ?Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 09:40, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Sudhir, I'm trying to ascertain which of the cited sources actually provides information about the father. Two of the four sources used do not. Also, and I feel I'm repeating myself ad nauseam here, we only care for reliable sources. Traditional community knowledge does not qualify. "Several books" could qualify only if they are considered reliable.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 21:50, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

In the 'Death' chapter of this page, I had given two citations, but again two citation tags are put.Please check.Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:15, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

If Wikipedia has put the tag that all the 31 citations on this page may not be reliable, why to put the page in place at all ? why not remove it all together ? Let people gather information from other sources. Why are you confusing the visitors to this page ?Sudhirkbhargava (talk) 07:37, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

The Marshman quote

I have been trying to verify the following quote which is being used in the article with page 50 of John Clark Marshman's The History of India from the Earliest Period to the Present Time (1873) cited as its source:

“ Hemu was one of the greatest commanders of the age. He was one and all combined in his personality. As a general of sterling qualities, he displayed great valour in the battlefield and embarked upon wonderful planning and strategies to win twenty two battles he waged against the enemies of the state and won all. As an energetic soldier, he never shrank away from the battlefield and when the fight was most fierce, he did not bother for his personal safety and always fought with his adversaries courageously along with his comrades. This earned him goodwill, affection and praise of his entire heterogeneous army consisting of Afghans, Rajputs and various other tribes. He was an outstanding commander and his orders were obeyed by all his troops without grudge and demur. ”

It is highly probable that it has been lifted verbatim from page 53 of KK Bharadwaj's book (which cites its source as the Marshman tome) without verifying the actual source. And looking through the available editions of the Marshman book, I am yet to locate this exact passage. The only edition that I can find which was published in 1873 is an abridged version titled Abridgment of the History of India from the Earliest Period to the Close of the East India Company's Government which does contain a section on Hemu on page 50. It, however, reads:

“ Hemu, one of the greatest commanders of the age, and, though a Hindoo, loyal to the deposed emperor, Adili, on hearing of the death of Humayoon … ”

IOW, besides part of the first line, it bears no resemblance to the KK Bharadwaj quoted passage. I have looked at a number of earlier editions and later editions of the Marshman books, and have only come across the "loyal Hindoo" passage and never the "general of sterling qualities" passage. While I've added a verification needed tag to the quote, I'm inclined to remove it from the article altogether. Thoughts? --Cpt.a.haddock (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

117.198.127.131 edits

You have removed well sourced matters from the page. Also broke a description in to 3 paras and demand 3 citations. The para is one in the book, why demand 3 citations? Why did you remove disambuagation of Shah Kuli Khan without citing any reason. Such deletions spoil the page 117.198.127.131 (talk) 05:55, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

The above is a copy of the message left on my talk page by talk--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 13:48, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

@117.198.127.131: You have attempted to merge unsourced content into a sourced quote. If you believe that the unsourced content is part of the sourced quote, please provide proof. Looking at the history of this section, it looks unlikely. You have also linked Shah Quli Khan to Narnaul for some unexplained reason. Therefore, please explain and convince the other editors here of your edit before re-adding it. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 13:48, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I have not merged the three paras without reason. Please see your own reference section reference is given at the end also, at the end of the second part, which you segregated in three paras. Also Shah Kulin Khan was the commander of Akbar/Bairam Khan in second Battle of Panipat-1556, who could locate the unconcious Hemu on his elephant and presented Hemu to Akbar for beheading. For this job, Akbar had made Shah Kulin Khan as the Governor of Narnaul area who constructed many structures there, still in good condition.117.198.124.230 (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I've checked Sarkar's tome and only the currently quoted passage is in it. The two subsequent paragraphs in this article are not part of the quote and are also not part of that page (paraphrased or otherwise). As for Shah Quli Khan, just because he was the governor of Narnaul doesn't mean that his name should be linked to it; it currently links to the disambiguation page which does mention him. If you'd like to create an article for him, then please go ahead and then adjust the link accordingly.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 17:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

The entire para I had merged is published on page 26, of the book Hemu-Napoleon of Medieval India, by K.K. Bhardwaj, ISBN 81-7-99-663-5 published by Mittal Publications, New Delhi. You are right that half the para is credited to Sarkar. The other half should be credited to KKBhardwaj then.59.91.218.31 (talk) 05:54, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

KK Bharadwaj's book is unfortunately not a WP:RS.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 08:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

If KKBhardwaj's book is not a WP:RS, there are others who quote similar views. Even KKBhardwaj has quoted other authours extensively. His own interpretations/quotations should not be called unreliable. If reputed books are called unreliable, large number of pages will get wiped off from Wikipedia. Please suggest some mean the copy of those citations which are not on line, can be displayed somewhere or shown. Also please suggest what do you mean by ping. I have no idea how it is done.117.212.127.133 (talk) 11:02, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are trying to make. If Bharadwaj's book is not a reliable enough source for use on Wikipedia, then it follows that its contents are not either. However, if he is quoting from (or referencing) a reliable source, then it's perfectly fine (and recommended) to check if that source does carry the quotation and reference that directly. (Ping is a synonym of Reply to.)--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 14:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock Appreciate your efforts to streamline the page. But removing John Clark Marshman all together dilutes the page. Also chapter on Hemu's Army is completely removed. Hemu had won 22 battles in entire north India, his constitution of army needs to be explained on the page.117.198.125.200 (talk) 05:39, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Please see the section above. I've been unable to verify the Marshman quote. Besides, it's also really dated. (As a general rule of thumb, colonial and pre-colonial sources are to be avoided. This applies to VA Smith as well. Newer reliable sources need to be found where possible.) This section also needs better balance. The section on Hemu's army was not reliably sourced. But I plan to expand the battles section to incorporate some of the elements mentioned in it.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 15:47, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock Removal of more than 60% reference books shows that editings are flawed. While Abul Fazal, Badauni are rejected as primary sources at some places, at other places they are quoted prominently. All modern authors are rejected and removed, while many old ones, 100 yrs old, were also removed earlier saying they are old. Para on Coronation is removed all together and matter written now doubts whether Hemu was coronated at all. Those authors who described his coronation and victory are declared unreliable. This is mockery of a page. It does not look neutral at all. It shows Hemu on low esteem. Once the page had all information on Hemu and consisted of more than 30,000 bytes, now it has irrelevent 19000 bytes and has no information on Hemu, the last Hindu Emperor of India, like when was he born? Who was his father?All about his childhood, community and family. This happened because all references which provide this information have been declared unreliable. This page with only 'Biased' references has become unreliable like thousands of other pages on Wikipedia. Wonder these objections will be attended?117.198.131.146 (talk) 05:11, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Abu'l-Fazl and Bada'uni have not been quoted as primary sources here. They have been used via a secondary source as it is Satish Chandra who quotes (and interprets) them. You are welcome to find modern reliable sources that describe the coronation and include them in the page. The same applies to all the other information that you lament has not been included. I recommend that you familiarise yourself with WP:HISTRS. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock What is intriguing is that you have removed all the authors who wrote exclusive books on Hemu or wrote positive about him.Why it is so?117.212.120.232 (talk) 11:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock Removal of para on 'Coronation' once again is unwarranted. It has all the relevent secondary citations from European authors while present para As Raja Vikramaditya has some confusing and primary sources. This needs to be replaced.117.198.141.25 (talk) 06:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

There are no primary sources being directly cited in the current section. All the quotes by Abu'l-Fazl et al. are from Satish Chandra's book and I've restructured the paragraph to make this explicitly clear. The "secondary citations from European authors" that you refer to are very dated and not recommended when there are newer sources about. Vincent Smith's book is dated to 1917. Wolseley Haig's Cambridge History of India is from 1937 (and not 1965). There have been subsequent Cambridge Histories, one of which by John F. Richards, I have liberally cited in the article. Again, please find modern reliable sources that support whichever bias you are leaning towards and include them. And no, KK Bharadwaj is not one of them.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 14:00, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock Splitting the hair of historians won't take us anywhere. I wish other editors to comment on this page. There is nothing wrong with para on Coronation which is removed. However the present para on 'As Raja Vikramaditya'is based on medieval writers is more a POV. (2) Also please clarify if you would mention President Obama as Senator Obama after he leaves office, if not then why in the first sentence of page you write Hemu as Chief Minister and General of Adil Shah, and not Hindu emperor of medieval times in India. He was an independent king when he went to Battle of Panipat on 5th Nov. 1556, and died. Hemu was called Emperor because of 22 wins in entire north India.61.2.109.176 (talk) 06:03, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Again, please feel free to point to reliable modern sources that call Hemu an emperor, give primacy to his royal status rather than his position in Adali's court, etc. FWIW, I will be expanding the section in question with additional sources in the next few days. Also, you might also want to familiarise yourself with WP:ILLEGIT.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 17:10, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock Mughal authors you have mentioned were rather abusive describing Hemu. They are not neutral authors. However, Abul Fazl despite using derogatories for Hemu, has described Adil Shah/Adli as a debauch and drunkard and Hemu as a defacto king during his rule. He also mentioned that Hemu held all powers in administration, appointments and justice. European authors have rather been neutral and have described Hemu as Emperor. At present time Govt publications or the modern authors write Hemu as medieval time Hindu emperor and several references can be given for that, which may or may not be online. I appreciate your efforts to put facts on the page, which also remains my intention too.117.198.138.92 (talk) 02:23, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

As above, please support your statements with modern reliable sources. All we know about Hemu is from Mughal sources. And we know and have stated in the first section that they are not neutral. It is also why we avoid using primary sources directly and rely on historians to interpret them instead. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 20:21, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock Now that we have several citations on Hemu becoming an independent king after Delhi win and assuming the title of a Vikramaditya king, request you to change the first sentence as "Hemu or Hemu Vikramaditya or Hem Chandra Vikramaditya was a Hindu Vikramaditya king during the medieval period of indian history, when Mughals and Afghans were vying for power in the the entire north India. He was the Prime Minister and Chief of Army of Adil Shah Suri and won 22 battles for him against Afghan rebels and Mughals from Punjab to Bengal ------. Here I may point out that Hemu acted as Prime Minister and Chief of Army of Adil Shah, looking after his entire territory holding all powers in administration, employment and justice as per Abul Fazl. So writing him as a general and chief minister may not be appropriate. (2) Also in para "As a Vikramaditya king", Satish Chandra's views are out of place. His book is entirely based on the four Mughal era historians. While he maintains that none of the Mughal authors has said that that Hemu took independent charge as a king, the same para mentions that Badauni and Nizammudin Ahmed did indeed say that Hemu acquired the Vikramaditya title. This is all confusing. His view are contradicting in the para itself. Please advise59.91.216.15 (talk) 15:55, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure that you realise that just about all that any of these modern historians know of Hemu comes from the same handful of Mughal-era historians. It's in how they interpret them that they differ because, as you've noted, they are often biased, use excessive hyperbole, or are simply plain wrong. Chandra is not quibbling over whether Hemu took on the title; he is quibbling over whether that implied that he was breaking away from Adil Shah and setting himself up as an independent king. Anyhow, I'll try to make this clearer and I'll also be looking to expand the lead a little bit. Please have a look again then. As for "prime minister" vs. "chief minister" and "general" vs. "chief of army", I'm simply using the terms that the cited historians tend to use to describe Hemu. I don't think either term lowers the importance of Hemu's position in the hierarchy in any way; the article also makes it quite clear that he was the one in charge.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 18:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Capt.a.haddock was to make some changes which are vital for this biography as promised above 5 months ago but nothing happens. What is the use of talk page? ping 117.198.137.248 (talk) 16:23, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Hem Chandra Vikramaditya (from Cpt.a.haddock's talk page)

In July 2016 you wrote on talk page Hemu, that you intend to change the version and improve a bit. What happened Sir? Page is completely biased as of now. Modern authors and Haryana Govt are ignored who name him as Hem Chandra Vikramaditya. Please visit the page and remove anomalies. Talk page has dozens of citations which address him as Hem Chandra Vikramaditya, his complete name. @Cpt.a.haddock:[Special:Contributions/182.68.112.225|182.68.112.225]] (talk) 10:09, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

"Hemchandra Vikramaditya" has been provided as an alternate/popular name in the lead. Scholarly sources name him as Hemu. As for bias, please feel free to cite modern scholarly sources that contend otherwise. Thanks.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 09:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The lead para on this page confirms that Hemu's history was written by his enemies. But you consider Abul Fazal as an eminent writer. Those who read 4 books and written the 5th cannot be eminent writers. New age historians visit places related to him before writing. His Haveli and estates and Temples are now in public domain, but some editors are ignoring the facts and give credence to Hemu's enemies only. This page needs to be rewritten as per new findings. He died after he was coronated as an independent king, but page shows he was the general of Adil Shah. It is like saying Indira Gandhi was an MP in India. If Indira Gandhi is mentioned as one of the PMs of India, Hem Chandra should be written as Last Hindu Emperor of India, rather than General of Adil Shah Suri, who never came out of Chunar fort from 1553 to 1556. Hope good sense prevails! @Cpt.a.haddock: 1.187.125.88 (talk) 02:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

You still have failed to cite any source. Please specify a wp:reliable source i.e. an acceptable academic journal. Specify the name of the journal, volume, issue, month, year, etc. Without this, there will be no changes to the article. Jim1138 (talk) 02:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Talk page has many citations on the fact that Hemu was coronated at Purana Kila as a king. He went to fight at 2nd battle of Panipat as an independent king. But you do not write him as a king and mention only as general of Adil Shah on first sentence of this page. Adil Shah was zero as a king, this fact is mentioned even by Abul Fazal in the citations. But you want more citations on Hemu's coronation and title as a king ignoring all the old citations. 173.56.105.239 (talk) 19:32, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, no source. Put the source in this section. See wp:BURDEN - your job, not mine. This repeated request here and on the article edit summaries is at the wp:tendentious editing and WP:LISTEN threshold. Jim1138 (talk) 06:15, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Ahirwal

@Sitush: Rewari comes in the Ahirwal region not Mewat. Both regions have different geography and are dominated by different communities. I cannot access the sources cited. Can you confirm that sources say that Hemu lived in Mewat? If they do, then I will try to look for alternate sources, because I'm sure they made a mistake. Ankit2 (talk) 07:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ankit2: ah, thanks. Unfortunately, I cannot see the sources to confirm/deny either! - Sitush (talk) 07:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Change in Title

The real name of Hemu is Hem Chandra Vikramaditya. I strongly feel we should change the title of the page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dheerajmpai23 (talk • contribs) 13:21, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: There are more hits on the name Hem Chandra Vikramaditya now compared to Hemu. In Govt records, on statues or in public discussions name mentioned is Hem Chandra Vikramaditya. Hemu was mentioned by Mughal authors and needs to be changed. 2409:4051:20C:CF9C:3DB7:C878:6807:4487 (talk) 04:23, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

As per Google Ngram, "Hemu" is the more commonly used name among academic sources.[1]
Alivardi (talk) 16:00, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

"Hem Chandra Vikramaditya" is not found in any of the historic sources. It may first have been used in the 20th century.Malaiya (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

All the reliable sources agree that he was a Dhusar. Problem arises because most Dhusars identify as Brahmins (Bhragav) while some call themselves Dhusar Vaishya. There are a few other such communities with a dual character, as as Paliwal.Malaiya (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Modern images?

Shouldn't this article include actual paintings/ portraits instead of modern images and statues which could easily be quite imaginary or not quite historically accurate? 16AdityaG09 (talk) 16:50, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

There are no contemporary portraits, except the Akbarnama painting, which is likely based on imagination. Just like Buddha, Moses or Jesus, we have to rely on imaginary portraits/statues.Malaiya (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@16AdityaG09 @Malaiya - I tried adding historical paintings of Hemu into the article but a POV editor keeps removing them. Go figure. ThethPunjabi (talk) 21:29, 27 July 2023 (UTC)