Talk:Illeism

Gollum

Does Gollum really count considering we're dealing with a character with a kind of split personality? 199.133.19.254 (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The list of "well-known illeists" ideally should be pared down to those individuals for which there are sources describing them as known for the trait. As it stands, it is a whole lot of original research in random order. By all means, remove Gollum if he doesn't qualify. Jonathunder (talk) 15:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there any benefit to that massive list (more than half the article by line count). It's not adding anything in the slightest to an understanding and looks like little more than a collection of fan-****. I'm no quite being bold enough to delete it but I really think it can go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.149.224 (talk) 17:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Gollum definitely counts, because he refers to himself in the third person. Just because he has a bit of a psychological disorder, that doesn't mean he's not an illeist! 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

pronunciation?

How does one pronounce this vowelly word? Posting this question at Wiktionary too. --74.211.165.18 (talk) 20:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying "ill-ee-ism" in my head. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I hate being wrong.) 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

More on the list

Didn't Rurouni Kenshin say "This one" instead of "I" a lot? --Heero Kirashami (talk) 01:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

No, he says <japanese pronoun> instead of <japanese pronoun>, and that's how that manner of speaking was translated to English. It *could* be illeism, but you'd have to research how he refers to himself in the source material. Japanese pronouns are Complicated. --66.190.13.201 (talk) 07:52, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Arguably there's no such thing as first/second/third person in Japanese grammar, afaik. —Tamfang (talk) 06:13, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Ice Bear from We Bear Bears is missing. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.201.193 (talk) 18:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The list is called "Notable illeists" not "Everybody you can possibly think of".

Is Wikipedia really about making complete lists of every single instance of a concept? You wouldn't want the page for "blue" to include a list citing every single blue thing in existence, would you? When an examples-list becomes longer (much longer) than the original page, I feel we're straying from the point.

In those cases, I'm a strong believer of keeping these lists shorter rather than making them longer. Cite some universal examples so everybody knows what the example is about, and has something to look-up if they need/want a real life example. Characters that are well-knówn for their illeism. Not just "they used it in that óne scene". Also consider that what is "well-known" for a fervert anime fan, could be útterly obscure to the general public. It just diminishes the use of the list: if people have to read through 200 names before they find someone they are familiar with, they simply won't bother, and all the effort put into it is wasted. Save for a sense of accomplishment for the few editors that created it.

If you want to indulge your fan-craze please start a fandom page, or head on over to TV-tropes.org. 87.209.236.59 (talk) 08:47, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

No, in fact we need fewer on the list. A number of people on the list are not illeists, but merely people who have referred to themselves in third person occasionally, or even just once. E.g. Donald Trump is not an illeist, he just talks about himself a lot. --66.190.13.201 (talk) 07:52, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Lazy delete

The pseudodelete done here in blanking the page and replacing it with a cross-project redirect was the unWikian move. The topic deserves a discussion and explanation and even a history would be nice. While a dicdef and list was not a good format for an article on the topic, blanking it into a redirect to Wikt is not either. {{Sofixit}} doesn't (or shouldn't) mean "make it somebody else's problem". - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 19:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. After some consideration, I decided to be bold and restore the article. We can continue to discuss this if it remains controversial. PhageRules1 (talk) 02:07, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

You definitely did the right thing. 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Un-listify

It'd be nice to un-listify the page or separate Illeism and List of illeists (which is a pretty unorthodox title frankly -- can one be 'an illeist'?) into separate articles. Changing the title of the page because it's form doesn't fit it's title does not improve the encyclopedia. It's in fact the quick, lazy, and brain-dead thing to do. Instead, the list should be pared down, removed, or demerged, and the article go back to focusing on illeism. For example: Etymology? Use in fields? Examples from different media? Explanation of the purpose(s) behind the practice? Origin of the practice? It's easy to add "Oh, that guy in that movie talked about himself in the third person, I'll add him to the list". It is not as useful however as covering discussions as to why so-and-so did that. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 19:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, what is this, TV Tropes? I think not ;-) How many of the fictional examples would fit better in the list at TV Tropes? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 04:08, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Definitely agree with this sentiment. I'm just not sure about the best way to go about doing it. 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Suggest as you said, paring it down to Notable examples that are covered by reliable secondary media sources like with Bob Dole / Herman Cain. Unless it's a notable event like with Dali's interview, who cares if someone does an illeism when they normally use first person? AngusWOOF (talk) 16:06, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Transformers

Grimlock always refers to himself as "Me Grimlock" not "Grimlock" if he mentions me then it is not really third person but broken English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.75.89 (talk) 20:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

What about to the person you're talking to?

What is it called when you refer to someone you're talking to in third person rather than second person? E.g. When a father says to his son, "he needs to do his homework" instead of "you need to do your homework". Nikofeelan (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

That isn't an illeism. Please remember that Talk pages are not for discussion of the topic, they are for discussion of the article. :) 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of Latin word "ille"

It's sometimes used where English would use "he", but its basic literal meaning is more along the lines of "that one"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:29, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It depends on which Latin you take. In Classical Latin, it means "that one". But with the lack of a "he", it increasingly took on its position, as is clear from the use in e. g. French and Italian; another variant was "ipse" (lit. "himself"). By the stage of Mediaeval Latin, the participle "supradictus" ("the aforementioned") had been invented for the, as it were, actual demonstrative pronoun.--2001:A61:20E4:A101:2CDA:41CF:BD37:25EE (talk) 16:37, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Words ending in "ism" are not generally formed from late vulgar Latin words, or words hypothetically reconstructed as occurring between late vulgar Latin and early Romance... AnonMoos (talk) 15:20, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Hm … isism? eism (from the oblique stem)? —Tamfang (talk) 06:15, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Subsections?

Since illeism is noted in the article as being cultural in Japanese anime/manga, should the fictional characters be placed in its own subsection? Should there be other categories such as Literature, Comic Books, Manga and Anime, Film, Television, Video Games, Others. AngusWOOF (talk) 17:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

This isn't TV Tropes. If anything, the list should be greatly reduced in size, and each example should be given more detail.

That's fine. It can definitely be rewritten in prose and integrated into the main article. I separated them out because the combined list was unwieldy and does not illustrate anything. AngusWOOF (talk) 16:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Lists like these should only include nótable exámples. Not "everything in existence, categorised". Long before a list such as this needs an "other" heading, it's grown past its original purpose. Perhaps a list of ten or twenty examples, to illustrate the article. Where people that aren't quite sure what is meant by "illeism" can find a video of an example.

I'm a great anime fan as well, but the general public has nó clue what you/we are talking about. It's of no use. The list is at least 5 times longer than the article itself. Am I honestly the only one that recognises that this thing only caters to an internal need to making lists, rather than actually serving a purpose? Who has ever réally needed a complete list of áll illeists in fiction? I would consider just curtailing the entire thing, but it would either be undone or simply re-accumulate over time.

I really have no problems with the tendency of certain people to make extensive lists (I'm guilty of that myself for time to time), but please keep it away from Wikipedia, and put your time and effort into TVtropes, where it would be appreciated far more. 87.209.236.59 (talk) 09:01, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Charles

Pondering if this should be included:

• In the short story, Charles, by Shirley Jackson, the main character Laurie describes the antics of a schoolmate named Charles, but it is eventually revealed that Laurie has been referring to himself.

If so, it needs references to essays and literature analysis that make this link. One argument against is that Laurie also refers to himself in the story. AngusWOOF (talk) 20:26, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Lyrics as illeisms?

Should lyrics that mention the artist's names be considered illeisms? It seems like common promotional practice. Anyway I took this out until someone can cite a review that associates the song with illeisms.

• Flavor Flav's entry: particularly in the Public Enemy track "Can't Do Nuttin' For Ya Man", e.g.: "Flavor Flav is the sun, Public Enemy number one" - "Public Enemy Lyrics - Can't Do Nuttin' For Ya Man". PublicEnemy.com. Retrieved 8 June 2010.

AngusWOOF (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

An illeism is more than just mentioning one's own name. It needs to be a reference in the third person. e.g. I'd say that if there was a band called Fifteen Bronze Doorknobs that a lyric like "and there were fifteen bronze doorknobs on the door to that room" is not an illeism, while the lyric "Fifteen Bronze Doorknobs is rocking your speakers tonight!" is. 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

What counts as illeism?

This user is not sure that a catchphrase like "HULK SMASH" or whatever should really count as an illeism. Gollum is a much better example as he constantly and continually refers to himself in the third person, and not just on the odd occasion. I think that this list should be restricted to those that use illeism frequently, and not just in the sense that they occasionally say their own name.

Another thought - is it an illeism if an organisation like a committee refers to itself in the third person? e.g. "it is the opinion of the Select Committee for Finance that..." instead of "it is our opinion that..."? I think that this is an example of illeism, and possibly quite good because it's not yet another entertainment example. But I'm not quite feeling quite bold enough to add it without some consensus. 203.97.127.101 (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

In those thrilling days of yesteryear when Tamfang read at least a few issues of The Incredible Hulk, Hulk did not use pronouns much. —Tamfang (talk) 06:19, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Esquire references

[1] has excerpts of analysis of illeisms. It might be useful to integrate into the article. If anyone could dig up more psychology references that would help too. -AngusWOOF (talk) 17:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Bob Dole / US Senate

WAT? "This Senator" is a constant usage in the US Senate. Why is this not mentioned? At least as importantly, why is it not mentioned as at least a partial explanation for Senator Dole's behavior? Or is the SNL appearance the only thing that counts? Nathan Zook — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1008:11:BC24:20F7:5BE1:ABC7 (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Creepy?

When does this become creepy? 86.84.56.169 (talk) 16:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

What do you mean? When illeists become creepy? Or when the article goes into WP:CREEP? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:22, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Alice Cooper

Alice Cooper is both a singer and band, just like Marilyn Manson. It's not really third person, although surely confusing.

Cerebus

Cerebus the Aardvark says "I" just once (well, twice in one sentence, iirc) in an early issue. Much later, when he goes into politics, he is persuaded to use "I", but it doesn't stick. Tamfang does not know what documentation of this is appropriate and available. —Tamfang (talk) 06:41, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Tiggers

Tigger in the Winnie the Pooh books, films and television series frequently refers to himself in the third-person plural, e.g. "That's what Tiggers do best!"

Is it illeism to speak of a set of which the speaker is a member? —Tamfang (talk) 04:29, 23 June 2023 (UTC)