Talk:Israel–Hamas war protests in the United States

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misc edits[edit]

This is an ongoing highly contentious issue so I don't want to just go spew tags all over the article. Here are some things I've noticed though:

  • On 6 November, more than 75 activists blocked the entrances to the Boeing plant in St. Charles, Missouri, stating it was where the company manufactures bombs for the Israeli government.
Well... was it? Kind of a weird thing to just throw out there and not confirm whether it's true or not.

It does: https://www.kcur.org/news/2023-11-07/protesters-block-boeing-plant-in-missouri-that-produces-weapons-used-in-israel-hamas-war. I reworded the line and cited it. Catboy69 (talk) 19:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • On 10 November, protesters staged a sit-in at The New York Times
Do we know how many?
  • In Thousand Oaks, California, a 69-year-old Jewish man named Paul Kessler died after sustaining head injuries following an altercation during dueling protests on 4 November.
Article link is to Killing of Paul Kessler, which says it's been ruled a homicide, so either that article's wrong or we can go further than to say "after sustaining head injuries following an altercation".
  • After Harvard University banned the slogan "from the river to the sea,"
What does it mean to "ban"? Like, there's a continuum between "pedestrians cutting across parking lots is banned" (yeah okay whatever) and "pedestrians cutting across the White House lawn is banned" (they have snipers).

I'm not sure if anything actually was banned. The cited article doesn't mention any specific ban. It mentions "sanctions" on "afilliates," but I'm not sure exactly what that means. There's some mention about the potential for censorship and some concern for "academic freedom," but nothing specific. The letter seems to be in response to Gay's condemnation of the slogan "from the river to the sea" and maybe to the antisemitism board, but I couldn't find anything about the "ban." Catboy69 (talk) 19:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

jp×g🗯️ 10:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

to be added[edit]

checkY done Catboy69 (talk) 17:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kire1975 (talk) 15:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Three more in Iowa: https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/2023/10/11/at-des-moines-rally-for-palestine-calls-to-end-u-s-aid-to-israel/71136925007/ (October 10th) https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/education/2023/10/27/grinnell-college-students-rally-for-palestine/71328932007/ (October 25th) https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/local/des-moines/2023/12/17/palestine-and-aea-protestors-gathered-outside-of-the-governors-mansion/71919661007/ (December 17th) Salmoonlight (talk) 12:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if campus protests are notable enough, but hundreds of students at SUNY New Paltz protested on at least two occasions.

--Bisexual Antifa Terrorist (talk) 19:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request[edit]

  • In the "South" section, please move the event at Biden's residence to the appropriate geographic location for Delaware.
  • Please add the self immolation that occurred in Atlanta today. [6]. Proposed text: "On December 1, A protestor wrapped in a Palestinian flag self-immolated in front of the Israeli consulate in Atlanta, GA"

Ironic (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Already done Appears done already, ping me if not. Thanks, ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 03:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Organization name needs correcting[edit]

The "Counting Crowds Consortium" mentioned in the reference to the Haaretz piece is actually the Crowd Counting Consortium. You might link to our GitHub repository or our blog as a source for that. Jay ulfelder (talk) 22:32, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

checkY done Catboy69 Done Catboy69 (talk) 22:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 December 2023[edit]

On the "Firings" section, mention that voice actress Tara Strong was fired from Boxtown because she claimed that Hamas had "brainwashed the western world" to support terrorism.[1] She also stated that people can "help Palestine without supporting terrorism"[2] and expressed support for Israel.[3] 47.153.148.108 (talk) 23:30, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Could you please provide reliable sources which tell that Tara Strong was fired from Boxtown? Currently I can see only tweets which don't mention that she was fired. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 09:34, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
[4]
[5]
[6] 47.153.148.108 (talk) 14:18, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Strong, Tara [@tarastrong] (October 9, 2023). "#Hamas has successfully brainwashed the western world to actually believe that #terrorism can be justified" (Tweet). Archived from the original on October 9, 2023. Retrieved October 9, 2023 – via Twitter.
  2. ^ Strong, Tara [@tarastrong] (October 9, 2023). "You can want to help Palestine without supporting terrorism" (Tweet). Archived from the original on October 9, 2023. Retrieved October 9, 2023 – via Twitter.
  3. ^ Strong, Tara [@tarastrong] (October 7, 2023). "Absolutely devastating. I pray for peace. #IStandWithIsrael I fear for my family there. I fear for all suffering in this terrorist attack. Sickening how anyone condones or celebrates any violence" (Tweet). Archived from the original on October 9, 2023. Retrieved October 9, 2023 – via Twitter.
  4. ^ Massoto, Eric (October 28, 2023). "'Loki's Tara Strong Fired From Animated Project Amid Controversial Posts". Collider. Retrieved October 16, 2023.
  5. ^ Briscuso, Lex (October 17, 2023). "Tara Strong Removed from Animated Series Boxtown After Controversial Israel-Palestine Tweets". IGN. Retrieved October 18, 2023.
  6. ^ Vlamis, Kelsey (October 18, 2023). "A star voice actress was fired from a show after posting online about the Israel-Hamas war". ComingSoon. Retrieved October 19, 2023.

Serious NPOV concerns[edit]

Serious concerns regarding NPOV through out article. I started going through it and I see the neutrality problem is overreaching throughout the article. Here is an example from Responses:

Political[edit]

In response to actions taken by the Biden administration in support of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's approach to the war, Muslim and Arab Americans organized a campaign titled "Abandon Biden" to advocate against voting for Biden in the 2024 presidential election. Stephen Zunes, a professor at the University of San Francisco, stated Biden had lost significant support amongst progressive voters and Muslim Americans who believed the US was "aiding and abetting war crimes on a massive scale." Leaders from the United Electrical Workers and United Auto Workers vowed to use their electoral clout to push for a ceasefire.

As you can see, this is only 1 POV. Does not show any responses from different point of views and no balances.

Washington[edit]

On November 3, Jewish Voice for Peace activists in Seattle demonstrated outside the Henry M. Jackson Federal Building, demanding US Senator Patty Murray to call for a ceasefire. On November 6, an estimated 300 people blocked the entrance of the Port of Tacoma to prevent longshoremen from loading suspected military equipment and weapons onto the MV Cape Orlando. On November 11, a protest organized by the "Samidoun Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network" blocked streets near Westlake Center in Seattle. On November 19, hundreds called for a ceasefire at the Space Needle. The rally was organized by "Jewish Voice for Peace."

On December 7, University of Washington police in Seattle detained 36 people for occupying an administration building with demands that the school stop funding Israel and Boeing.

No mention of pro-Israeli protests, or more point of views...

California[edit]

On November 18, the California Democratic Convention in Sacramento was cancelled after hundreds of pro-Palestinian protesters descended on the SAFE Credit Union Convention Center. On December 5, a Holiday tree-lighting ceremony at the California Sate Capitol was postponed due to a planned protest organized by the Sacramento Regional Coalition for Palestinian Rights.

On October 15, hundreds demonstrated for Gaza outside the San Diego County Administration Building. On October 21, 2023, hundreds of protesters organized by San Diego Coalition for Palestine shut down streets downtown. On November 9, hundreds protested outside the headquarters of defense contractor Northrup Grumman demanding a ceasefire. Later that same day, medical students, staff and other workers at UC San Diego School of Medicine staged a solidarity walkout to protest the public health crisis in Gaza. Both of these protests were part of the international "Shut it Down for Palestine" event. On Black Friday, marchers through and participated in a die-in at a mall in Escondido. On December 2, around 125 pro-Palestinian protesters disrupted a tree-lighting ceremony in Balboa Park. On December 23, protesters calling for a ceasefire marched through Balboa Park for two and half hours.

No mention of pro-Israeli protests, or more point of views...


I think the situation is clear, there are more examples. But this needs to be dealt with. I already went over the lead a bit and other bits but they also need more work. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:34, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Remove message - It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given. Kire1975 (talk) 20:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey there, I've explained and given you examples. Please read above :). Homerethegreat (talk) 12:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Agmonsnir, any explanation for your reversion of the removal of the POV tag? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It is obvious. An article on an ongoing event that has conflicting narratives about it has serious concern on neutrality by default. Every sentence is picked by excellent editors who have different perspectives about what should and what should not be in the article, based on their relative point of view of events. It takes time until such an article can be more neutral, with relevant historical perspective and enough editing. Agmonsnir (talk) 06:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Template:POV - When to use

    "Place this template on an article when you have identified a serious issue of balance and the lack of a WP:Neutral point of view, and you wish to attract editors with different viewpoints to the article. Please also explain on the article's talk page why you are adding this tag, identifying specific issues that are actionable within Wikipedia's content policies.

    An unbalanced or non-neutral article is one that does not fairly represent the balance of perspectives of high-quality, reliable secondary sources. A balanced article presents mainstream views as being mainstream, and minority views as being minority views. The personal views of Wikipedia editors or the public are irrelevant."

    I think the tag can be removed due to Template:POV - When to remove - "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given."
    IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 07:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @IOHANNVSVERVS hey, please look above and read what was written. It's clearly stated several times with specific examples. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

*::Your faint praise WP:ASPERSIONS about other "excellent" editors seem to be the only obvious thing here. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else to make it "MORE" neutral, but you haven't defined what that means. Declaring something "obvious" or "clear" by labeling it so. Kire1975 (talk) 12:15, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • At the moment there is a neutrality problem as said, I welcome editors that wish to deal with it. Until then the neutrality tag needs to remain until that situation is fixed. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:35, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I've found pro-Israel demonstrations in Seattle and California and added them. Please explain further how to satisfy your demands for the political category. Kire1975 (talk) 14:01, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That's great! I'm currently working on another prj and have a look later. Regarding the political responses there are only responses condemning Biden and Arab Muslim political statements. What could be great is a broader look, what about those supporting Biden? What about the Jewish community's political response in support and against? What about Muslim leaders that condemned 7/10? It's important not to accidentally paint groups in one color. Certain there is a lot of info :). If you need further guidance then please feel free to ask. Thanks for the effort, ofc you don't have to do the work, it's all volunteering. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How would people supporting the president be a protest? Unless it was at a demonstration or specifically against non-support of Biden, that's not a protest. A protest is definitionally against something. The page is not "People's opinions about Biden and Israel." It is about protests. Catboy69 (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Context is important, there are also surveys in the article which are not directly related to the article. We need to decide the scope. please note I also presented several other examples. Homerethegreat (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Important to whom? Wikipedia is WP:NOT your personal WP:SOAPBOX. We've all got other things to do. Provide the context yourself, leave it to WP:CONSENSUS and stop taking this page WP:HOSTAGE. Kire1975 (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well I am trying to get the firing of voice actress Tara Strong for supporting Israel and condemning Hamas under that category but it seems it hasn't been added even though I put the sources with it. Maybe the guy who reviewed my case is busy but if you provide sources chances are it will be improved. 47.153.148.108 (talk) 14:43, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This was mentioned in the NPOVN discussion, but it seems worth raising here, with sources: What we probably should do is have more of the article focus on secondary sources or surveys or broader national coverage that characterize and evaluate protests as a whole. The observation that the current list of examples gives the implication that protests have leaned overwhelmingly against the war is true... but we do cite some sources for that fact, whereas inserting other sources to give the uncited implication that protests have been split %50-%50 would be worse. What we should do is directly reflect overarching coverage of protests as a whole according to broader secondary sources as opposed to blow-by-blow "a protest occurred here on day X." Just at a quick glance I suspect that most coverage supports the idea that protests have leaned against the war or have disproportionately supported Palestinians- see eg. [7][8][9][10][11][12] The Axios source provides a useful history which we should cover if we haven't already, describing how protests have shifted over time. Notably, even sources that I would roughly call supportive of Israel and the war tend to focus on bemoaning the protests; while pro-Israel protests certainly exist, most sources seem to agree that opinion outside of Israel has shifted against the war, especially among the generation. Some context is also required, which eg. the second-to-last source there provides; for most of recent history the position of America's political class has been fairly unequivocal and unconditional support for Israel. Demographic and cultural shifts mean that this is becoming harder to sustain, which makes the pro-Palestinian protests more notable. --Aquillion (talk) 20:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey, yes indeed, there were more pro-pal protests than pro-Israel protests, however the main issue I think was the absence of different perspectives on the issue as well as at times a singular focus on one side which was disproportionate (i.e violence by pro-Israel without mentioning other side (I added that a person was killed but I still did not think the issue was well enough resolved). However, you are right that there is notability in the generational shift and that should be reflected.
    I will write here some more issues. And try and be as specific as possible. I rather do this through talk and change the text since I feel I've been attacked for trying to show different perspectives and it was not a pleasant experience.
    An estimated one-third of all anti-war protests were met with pro-Israeli counter-protesters, who at times were violent. A Jewish man was killed by a Pro-Palestinian protestor.
    In the above, I think the problem is that this gives the semblance that at times Pro-Israeli protestors are violent, whilst leaving out that also some Pro-Palestinians protestors were violent and not just in one occasion. [13][14][15]
    Students in the United States reported fears of losing future job opportunities for engaging in protests against military action in Gaza. More than 260 "incidents of suppression" were reported against individuals opposed to the war. Palestine Legal, a non-profit representing individuals who lost their jobs for protesting for Palestinian rights, described the environment in the United States as "McCarthyite". The ACLU urged US colleges to protect the free speech of pro-Palestinian and anti-war protestors. The National Lawyers Guild condemned all attacks on pro-Palestinian activism at universities.
    In the above, there is only talk of the ill effects of protests on Pro-Palestinian protests, nothing on harassment of Jews, antisemitism in campuses by protestors against Jews... Furthermore, there is no reasoning presented to the reason of repusals against protestors (did US corporations do this because of antisemitism? Because of political interests? (suggesting ideas so that the point is understandable). This can accidentally obscure and de-complicate the situation, not to mention that there is no mention of antisemitism against Jews etc... [16] here is an nyt article, perhaps it can show the complicated situation. Other sources [17],[18],[19][20],[21][22] (I advise making sure it is clear that there has been a rise of antisemitism also in protests as well as the context regarding why some employers have said they will not hire protestors).
    National
    Pro-Palestine protests were held throughout the United States on Black Friday with activists calling to "shut it down" for Palestine. There were protests in Los Angeles; Chicago; Troy, Michigan; Saint Louis, Missouri; Estero, Florida; and many other cities.
    As of December 5, according to Harvard's Nonviolent Action Lab and the Crowd Counting Consortium, more than 1 million Americans had participated in protests over the conflict.
    "Ceasefire carols" were organized by activists throughout the United States leading up to Christmas 2023. Sarah Abbott who helped organize a carol outside Senator Amy Klobuchar's home was quoted in CBS Minnesota saying, "Our government is funding this genocide, white Christians have historically and currently played major roles in the perpetuation of Zionism, and as people of conscience, we can't stand by silently." Ceasefire carols were sung in Minneapolis, Minnesota; Louisville, Kentucky; Salt Lake City, Utah; and in at least 17 other cities.
    On 27 December, protesters blocked airports, including at John F. Kennedy International Airport and Los Angeles International Airport.
    Here in National Section, there is no emphasis at all on pro-Israel protests, not even the Washington protest of 290,000 people. (I will mention that according to the source, the 27 December protestors were pro-Palestinian (perhaps it should be said directly as not to confuse) "Pro-Palestinian protesters block airport access in New York, Los Angeles". (adding the Washington March and also reflecting on the rise of antisemitism should fix the issue).
    I don't want to go over every region...But I will mention that the Responses section does not directly give notable examples of antisemitism and harassment of Jews, it does not give the context regarding why students are accused of antisemitism.
    I hope this is enough specifities. I admit I no longer feel comfortable editing in this page following the rapid succession of attacks against me. Whilst I realize some may think I'm trying to sway the article to a different perspective, I wish the full picture to be present since I still believe that Wikipedia should be a neutral place and the article in my eyes at the moment does not reflect this value.
    Happy holidays and I hope in the next year we can all learn to respect and appreciate different perspectives. Homerethegreat (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Why would the Washington one not be in the District of Columbia section? If you have RS with notable examples of anything you are talking about, no one is stopping you from adding it. Copying and pasting all this into the talk page is just disruptive. Kire1975 (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I created a national section was to highlight protest movements that had consistent themes or the same organizers working in multiple states. If there are pro-Israel protests that are spread throughout the country in a way similar to the Shut it Down for Palestine movement, we could add them, but I don't really know of any. I guess you can add in JewBelong billboards since they are throughout the country. But other than that, pro-Israel protests seem to be more locally driven than a national campaign with consistent organizers (the Party for Socialism and Liberation for example is a major organizer for pro-Palestine marches, but pro-Israel protests seem to be more locally driven, but if I am wrong, feel free to add content onto the page) Catboy69 (talk) 16:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion[edit]

A discussion about this question has been opened here. Kire1975 (talk) 13:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading wording edit request[edit]

This sentence in the first section

“ A Jewish man was killed by a Pro-Palestinian protester. ”

is misleading as it implies that this has been determined while in fact the case is still open. The defendant has plead not guilty and his lawyer claims he was feet away during the fall, so it has absolutely not been determined that the victim was “killed” by the defendant and I find this wording to be purposefully misleading, if not flat out inaccurate. In addition, the charges are for involuntary manslaughter and battery, they do not indicate that the defendant had any intention of harming the victim (https://www.ojaivalleynews.com/news/crime_and_courts/court-dates-set-for-man-charged-in-pro-israel-demonstrator-s-death/article_09416e9a-8f0f-11ee-bc06-5ba626f3066a.html). In fact, it was determined specifically there is not enough evidence to call this a murder or hate crime and I think the current wording implies both, whether internationally or not.

In light of this information, I think the wording is confusing and should be changed to something like “A Jewish Man died after attending a protest and sustaining injures allegedly caused by a Pro-Palestinian protestor.” This is an accurate statement given the current status of the case and the information currently available. 32.221.155.183 (talk) 12:17, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... i mean, if there was confirmed intention, then the sentence would be "A Jewish man was murdered by a Pro-Palestinian protestor" or "A Jewish man was murdered during a pro-Palestinian protest".
“A Jewish Man died after attending a protest and sustaining injures allegedly caused by a Pro-Palestinian protestor.” is pushing a POV. Maybe "A Jewish man was killed by an altercation with a pro-Palestinian protestor" User:Sawerchessread (talk) 17:28, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change "Los Angeles County" to Greater Los Angeles[edit]

Since Newport Beach is there (its in Orange County), can we change the title? Plus all information would still fit in. 112.197.31.150 (talk) 10:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixing dates[edit]

Some of the dates are in day/month/year, but they should all be month/day/year. Can we fix that? Thanks. 47.153.148.108 (talk) 23:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV tag[edit]

Incredibly biased lede, I haven't had the chance to read the full article. The overwhelming majority of protests for the past few months have been pro-Palestinian ones demanding a ceasefire. Instead the lede highlights the first ten days only when pro-Israeli ones were more dominant. The infobox highlights the Israeli flag. The lede also highlights the unfortunate killing of a "Jewish" man while mentioning nothing of the Palestinian American student shot in Vermont. The lede mentions nothing of the skunk sprayed on pro-Palestine protestors in universities. The lede mentions the word "ceasefire" only once. The lede doesn't seem to summarize the body, but acts as a compilation of cherry picked highlights. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:11, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The core content of the lede seems to have been written a long time ago. I edited it a few months ago, not adding anything but removing some undue/poorly-sourced material and copyediting. I agree it needs an update. Go for it! Zanahary (talk) 16:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added both the Vermont shooting and the skunk attack to the lede. Salmoonlight (talk) 20:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey y'all, this is my first time touching a current event/controversial article as a copyeditor, so I wanted to weigh in here before making my edit: I'm resolving the "Who?" tag on civil rights groups in the lead, as the cited source clearly identifies American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and Palestine Legal as the groups they're referring to.
I am not sure how to phrase it, as the source implies there might be more groups but those are the only two identified by name, so for now I'll phrase as "Civil rights groups American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and Palestine Legal..."
Not grammatically ideal but I worry that "Civil rights groups including American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and Palestine Legal" would be less true to the source as I only see those two named directly; if someone sees more groups explicitly mentioned or finds an additional source, feel free to tweak my copy! Chiselinccc (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A little better now and more descriptive of the body. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on making a new University Protest Page?[edit]

Is it worth making a new standalone page or should information about university protests belong on this page? User:Sawerchessread (talk) 21:05, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's already one split at 2024 Columbia University pro-Palestinian campus occupation, which is gathering lots of media attention and seems to be snowballing with US-wide university protests in reaction to the events at Columbia Uni itself. Boud (talk) 21:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tax Day protests[edit]

Related: Tax Day protests (April 15, 2024)

---Another Believer (Talk) 04:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Related discussion re: article title at Talk:Tax Day protests ---Another Believer (Talk) 13:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Launchballer talk 06:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(
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Created by Crampcomes (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 62 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Mhhossein talk 10:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC).[reply]

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