Talk:Italian Somalis

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I would like if you people can stop this hijacking of this page and leave it to more knowledgeable persons. There were never any such records of Italian concubinage, and mixed race Italian-Somali persons are exceedingly rare and concerning Somali society, they don't exist. These are individual cases, many of them having nothing to do with colonial times. This is also backed up by the strict Islamic and cultural traditions of Somali society, Italians couldn't even punish Somalis since they knew it would cause serious backlash and start clashes on part of the Somalis, so can you think how bad the situation would be if it involved Somali women?. I have also seen the link posted as reference for the "concubinage" and it speaks nothing of that sort, nor anything about mixed-race Somali-Italians, only Eritrean-Italians. You should also be aware that Catholicism, Christianity, and any non-Sunni Islamic creed is nonexistent in Somalia, the country is exceedingly puritanical and any non-Muslim could expect to be in danger for their life.

"Somalians" goes to show how ignorant you people are concerning Somalia and Somalis, please go edit elsewhere and leave this page be without false information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lathan11 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Research on Italian Somalians[edit]

I appreciate your improvements, Middayexpress. I have done some research on books about the Italian Somalians and I hope you can find there what you need.

About the Catholicism in Somalia, here it is the exact words in the Tripodi book:Il vescovo di Mogadiscio, don Franco Filippini, dichiarava nel 1940 che vi erano circa 40.000 Somali cattolici, frutto del lavoro missionario specialmente nelle aree agricole del Giuba e dell'Uebi Scebeli (my translation: the Bishop of Mogadischu, Franco Filippini, stated in 1940 that there were nearly 40,000 native Somalians of catholic faith, consequence of the missions mainly in the agricultural areas of the rivers Juba and Schebelle). If we add that there were 22,000 Italians in Somalia in that year and the aproximate population of Italian Somalia was calculated in 750,000 (there were no exact census), we have to agree to what writes Tripodi: 62,000 catholics in Italian Somalia (to whom we have to add the temporary Italian troops stationed in forts), or nearly 10% of the total population of 750,000. Of course there are other calculations of the 1940 population of Italian Somalia without the Ogaden, but most scholars agree in the 750,000 - 800,000 range.

I have written that 'The Italian Embassy calculated in 1993 that most Italian colonists used to have illegitimate children with Somali women and this fact has created a group of Italian Somalians with Italian roots, that now amount to nearly 50,000 descendants in all Somalia', because in page 38 Paolo Tripodi wrote the following:L'ambasciatore italiano considerava l'uso del concubinato un serio problema durante gli anni della colonia. Un problema che aveva generato -secondo lui- quasi 50.000 Somali con almeno un nonno o bisnonno italiano negli anni novanta. (my translation: the Italian ambassador believed that the wide practice of concubinage during the colonial years had created the problem that nearly 50,000 Somalians had at least one grandfather or a greatgrandfather Italian during the nineties). To have an idea of something similar, please read this (http://www.camera.it/_dati/leg13/lavori/stampati/sk6000/relazion/5634.htm ) about 15,500 descendants of Italians in Eritrea (I hope you understand Italian) and the related problems for the Italian Parliament.

Sincerely.--DuilioM (talk) 07:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for providing quotations, DuilioM. Regarding the first statement, the English translation you supplied I think is phrased a little awkwardly, so I've re-written it to read: "The Bishop of Mogadishu, Franco Filippini, declared in 1940 that there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle." In particular, I've dropped the word 'native' because Filippini doesn't mention this. He also doesn't say that 10% of Somalis were Catholics; he just says that 40,000 or so Somalis in the Juba and Shebelle regions were converted to Catholicism. The 10% figure is therefore something of an exagerration and can also be considered a form of original research since the Tripodi source does not mention this.
In addition, I've re-written the 'concubinage' assertion to now read: "The Italian ambassador considered the practice of frequenting concubines to be a serious problem during the colonial period. According to him, by the nineties, this practice had given rise to around 50,000 Somalis with at least one Italian grandfather or greatgrandfather." I think this is much closer to what Tripodi actually writes since he doesn't mention that the concubinage was a 'wide practice'; he just says that the ambassador considered it a problem.
On a related note, I've visited some of the external links you've supplied, and they're fascinating. So thank you again for your efforts. Best, Middayexpress (talk) 02:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks, Middayexpress. I have found information (and added to the article) about Saba Anglana, a beautiful Italo-somalian who is considered in Italy to be the next "Miriam Makeba". Her songs are very nice (of course, you can understand better than me the song words in the Somali language of Mogadiscio).
Anyway, I have to pinpoint that bishop Filippini declared about native Somalians and NOT included the Italian community, because in the Italian language we say "Somali" or "Italiani" or "Italosomali" (as mixed people) and never include one group in the other. So, Filippini declared ONLY about native Somalians. If we do the math, we can easily get 40,000 + 22,000 = 62,000; that can be rounded to 70,000 if we add the Italian military servicemen (or nearly 10% of the total population of Somalia, that was 750,000 in 1940). It is not an exagerration and/or an original research: it is simple math. So, I have corrected the phrase and I hope you agree.
Finally, I have found a group of old postcards about Italian Somalia, and I am editing it in Common. May be you'll find interesting. Sincerely.--DuilioM (talk) 05:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't really have a problem with any of your other edits, I must reiterate that it is original research to state that 10% of Somalis were Christian because the Tripodi source does not state this. I can also personally assure you that this most certainly was not the case. There were only a few Christian Somalis at the time, and every last one of them were orphans who were converted and raised by Italian missionaries. They were also strictly found in a few towns in the South. When Filippini, the Bishop of Mogadishu, declared in 1940 that there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle, he was in all likelihood inflating the numbers to make his proselytizing work look all the more productive for the Facists back in his native Italy. Whatever the case, what is certain is that he never put forth a 10% figure. So it is again tantamount to original research to insist that he did. To arrive at that figure even requires new calculations, as can quite clearly be seen above. I've therefore removed it again; please do not reinsert it. Middayexpress (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Middayexpress, you wrote above that ...he was in all likelihood inflating the numbers to make his proselytizing work look all the more productive for the Facists back in his native Italy, but this is really-really-really OR, don't you agree? Where did you get that "he was inflating etc..."? Do you know that it is an offense for a high ranking catholic, like a bishop, to "inflate" proselytizing? --LittleTony (talk) 04:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
LittleTony, inflating figures was a very common practice during Italy's Fascist era, but not necessarily any time before or afterwards. Even Italy's original protection treaties with the Somali Sultans that first got it a foothold in Somali territory were ignored during the Fascist era i.e. it was a peculiar period of time where the normal "rules", if you will, did not apply. Furthermore, the notion that 40,000 Somalis were Catholics is WP:FRINGE & only advanced by Tripodi in that one book, whereas the Catholic Church in Somalia itself admits that only 8,500 of Somalia's population was Catholic in 1950 during the height of the colonial period. The latter is much more consistent with authoritative sources on the matter, and therefore not, by contrast, fringe. I recommend leaving emotions out of this. It makes no difference whether or not these facts are "an offense" to this or any other religious figure. We are Wikipedia editors here, not proselytizers (I hope) or defenders of any one religious order. Middayexpress (talk) 16:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Middayexpress, another OR: where do you get the information that inflating figures was a very common practice during Italy's Fascist era? Where and what are your sources? Please, do not repeat the same contemporary moslem POVs that the Catholicism never managed to penetrate the Somali community. This is propaganda not accepted in Wikipedia. Reliable sources demonstrate that there was a penetration in the 1930s, even if small. Furthermore, here it is a repetition of what I wrote about the 40000 Somali catholics:

  • The Catholic Church in Somalia's own website has data ONLY from 1950 and has NO DATA for the years before WWII. Why you "forget" this?
  • Stop repeating the same mistake that "there were only 8,500 Catholics in Somalia in 1950, at the height of the colonial era", because in 1950 we were NOT at the height of the colonial era and we were already in decolonization times all around the world (after WWII). The height of the Italian colonial era was during Fascism, when was conquered Ethiopia and Somalia was enlarged -even as a gift to the Somali soldiers who fought bravely in the Italian colonial army- with the Ogaden.
  • A catholic bishop will NEVER declare such a lie. And for what reason? He has no obligation toward the fascism regime...he is fully independent and to state 9000 or 40000 followers will be the same for him. You are doing OR, without doubt....I repeat, where did you find that the bishop was saying such a lie?
  • In those 1920s and 1930s the only studies in Somalia where from the Italians and were just a few....and I am talking of studies done in those years and so with contemporary and proven data, not studies done in postwar Somalia based on "supposed old data".
  • The population of Italian Somalia in the late 1930s was about 750000, of whom 25000 were Italian colonists/military. How it is possible that the catholics in Somalia were only 8500 at the top? The other 16500 Italians were moslems or anglicans? ...LOL...(allow me to smile a bit).
  • The main catholic cathedral -now destroyed- in Mogadishu was similar to one in Sicily. Do you know the capacity? More than 5000 people in the Sicilian one. Usually a cathedral is done -as a rule- to contain in a special/important religious mass about 10% of the catholics of the area. Why they built such a cathedral in Mogadishu, if there were so few catholics? The size of the one in Mogadishu was calculated for a total population in Somalia of nearly 50000 catholics...and this confirms Tripodi, don't you agree?

Hope we can understand each other, and stop all this "heated discussion". Sincerely.--LittleTony (talk) 05:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Italian Lamguage[edit]

I believe at this point that there should be a sperate article for the Italian language. I also plan to add the schools that were established in the 1890's and early 1900's. AcidSnow (talk) 19:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was no distinct dialect of Italian spoken locally. The standard Italian language was. Middayexpress (talk) 20:01, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we had this already discussed. I was refereeing to its use and history in Somalia. AcidSnow (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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